janis, 111op is correct. She has now made the story completely clear. When she went to the one (or two) European ATM, she was overtaken with a bit of psychic energy and suddenly KNEW instinctively by touching the ATM what it was going to charge her. So she canceled the transaction. Despite that, the ATM did the transaction anyway.

That is the only CLEAR explanation I've gotten from all of this, as there has not been a single logical explanation of why else she would have canceled the transaction "knowing" what it was going to cost her. Surely she wouldn't have canceled just because the ATM said her own bank "might" charge a fee as she already knew that.

The other possible clear explanation is that at the exact moment she put her card in the European ATM there was a sudden crossed wire somewhere between the US and Spain and suddenly the Santander or Barclay's ATM was miraculously transformed into being a Citibank one for the length of time it scanned her account and told her what the transaction would cost, working just like a Citibank card in a Citibank ATM would.

Janis, you and I weren't there so there is no point in arguing with either of those perfectly rational possibilities. Time to move on.

I have traveled to many different countries in Europe. I have yet to be told what the exchange rate would be prior to taking out money. Nor have I been told about a fee. I am NOT suggesting that it is not possible, as I am sure that it is, especially since I have not been to every bank in Europe. I do, however, suggest one sure way to resolve this dispute. ATM's have cameras. If, as you have written, stayed at the machine until it reset and did not take any money out, the tape within the ATM would show this. Banks would have a hard time disputing the "hard facts".

That would be the angle I would take.

By the way, for the record, I am a man. But I can see why I might be considered a woman when I seem to be so locquacious.

I almost sound like a jilted lover. NO, DON'T LEAVE ME!!!! (Capital letters and exclamation points, finally! ) No wonder I'm thought of as a woman.

As I said, the offer to fly to Barcelona stands. If you lose, just pay me.

Anyway, I really don't see what there's to argue. Why would I make something like this up?

And Robert was in Madrid in March. I was in Barcelona in September. Things can change in six months. That's why we ask questions on this forum because things change constantly!

I'd like to start another thread in the lounge. Discuss the three personalities NeoPatrick, janis and 111op. What can you tell about them from the ATM thread?

Let me just summarize again (for the last time)!

I cancelled two withdrawls.

<b>Withdrawal #1</b>

At 11:14 pm. The ATM told me what the exchange rate was, either implicitly or explicitly. I didn't like that, so I cancelled.

I know that people are questioning why this is possible. I am telling you as it did happen.

I called Citi to dispute this charge. It was reversed right away, no questions asked.

<b>Withdrawal #2</b>

After I cancelled #1, I went to another ATM. The online statements show that I was there a minute later. I attemped to take out some money, but there was some warning about fees.

I don't recall what the fees message was -- whether it was that that ATM could charge me a fee or whether my bank could charge me.

It could have been the latter, but even if I knew that, I cancelled anyway. I cancel whenever I see possibility of a &quot;fee.&quot;

It's withdrawal #2 that's in dispute. Citi claimed that the ATM records were reconciled that day and nothing was found. They reversed the credit. I redisputed.

I don't plan to add anything else to this thread for now but I'll check it for new developments.

I started reading this thread as it seem like people were saying you could now find ATMs in Europe that would give you the exchange rate in advance of withdrawing your cash.


I think I found the source of the confusion.

The original post said

&quot;I cancelled two ATM withdrawls in succession in two different banks because they both were going to charge me fees&quot;.

That seems totally reasonable as it seems some ATMs do in fact charge fees.

The problem arose in the second post that contained the following:

&quot;In one case, I believe that there was a screen message that said that I'd be (or could be) charged a fee. In the other case (actually the first transaction I cancelled, I believe, but I can't remember), it was evident to me that the exchange rate was poor -- well over 1.50 at that time. I think the ATM didn't explicitly mention a fee, but it was clear to me that there was a very severe markup in the exchange rate, so I cancelled the transaction. Basically there was a screen that specified the equivalent in dollars, and since I was withdrawing 100 euros, it was clear that the exchange rate was bad.&quot;

I think this is what led people to think the exchange rate was given in advance. In this case it sounds like the ATM gave some indication of a really bad exchange rate.

Unfortunately for those of us who'd like to know the rate of exchange in advance of withdrawing money from European ATMs this was an isolated case and not the norm.

I wish 111op good luck in getting his credit from the bank.

Roger1x, no, my first post wasn't that clear. But you'd think that after my many posts on this, people would have gotten it by now!

Actually I didn't really want to get into all this detail. Because ultimately it doesn't matter why I cancelled the transactions.

From my point of view, I just want to know whether you had a situation that you cancelled, but the cancellation didn't go through and you were charged anyway. That's all.

If you are serious about wanting to discuss personalities on another thread -- well, that speaks volumes about you as a poster.

Some of us are only interested in logical discussion about the actual scenario you posted. It really isn't about personalities -- but about the situation itself, which was important enough for you to originally post about -- presumably looking for discussion and answers rather than simply a lot of &quot;Oh, that's terrible&quot; from anyone who read the post.

Yes, it is an important issue. It would be worthwhile if someone could confirm that ATMs in Europe now DO tell you the rate or the charges or the fees that your home bank will make. Perhaps some expert here will confirm that. That is really the only point in having continued this dead end discussion -- which has changed consistently over the course of the thread from the original &quot;they both were going to charge me fees&quot; (which we KNOW is not true -- no European bank ATMs do that) to &quot;my bank could charge me&quot;, which even you admit to already knowing.

Patrick (and janis, when you resurface), for one last time, let's just leave it.

I've more important things to do and I'm sure you have other important things to do as well.

I really don't like <i>ad hominem</i> attacks. They accomplish nothing.

But I suggest that if my posts don't sit well with you or janis, don't respond to them. I'm not the sort of person who makes things up.

Also I don't think that anyone remembers every detail. I certainly don't. I got into this discussion to attempt to show that I remember enough about what happened.

I provided the details in an attempt to prove that what I wrote is genuine. But it's clear that no amount of detail can satisfy your curiosity -- not what I can provide anyway.

Certainly your doubt is your prerogative. Please leave me alone. Don't insinuate that there must be something wrong with me, in which case, my only defense is to insinuate there's something wrong with you, as no other details I provide can possibly with sufficient.

Thanks!

A similar situation happened to us in Venice in Jan 08. We attempted to take money out from an ATM at the Marco Polo airport. Both my husband and my atm card (both at Bofa) were declined. We did not get money, but dont recall if we got a receipt. We assumed there was no money in the ATM, so after getting into the center of Venice, we went to another bank and tried there. Declined again. After walking over yet again to the next bank, same sitation. Finally we called BofA and they explained that our cards were frozen because we had not notified them of our trip to Italy. Not true, because we specifically did call to notify them that we were in fact going to be traveling to Italy. Anyway cutting to the chase, when we got back home, the two attempts at the airport showed that we withdrew money and charged us fees as well. My husband contested it, and thank gawd we got our money back. Because they were 300Euro transactions each. Also, speakinng from my own experience, Ive been to europe several times over the last couple of years, and i dont ever recall the ATM showing the exchange rate before or after my transactions. I know, though, that when I purchase something with my credit card or atm card at a store, the receipt does show the conversion. But not ATM money withdrawal transactions. Hope that helps.

&quot;I really don't like ad hominem attacks. They accomplish nothing.&quot;

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I've not done that here. I'm sorry I've questioned you and tried to ask logical questions about the things that you've said. I honestly originally thought you were trying to get to the bottom of how this whole scenario happened, so yes, the details ARE important.

Was I being a little &quot;sarcastic&quot; with my two possible scenarios? Yes, of course, but honestly you have never offered any information that makes any more sense than either of those do. I was trying to make that point.

And for the record, I'm not the one who hinted at starting a new thread for the purpose of &quot;discussing&quot; our personalities!

How about the simple explanation that I cancelled Withdrawal #1 because I figured out the exchange rate in some fashion?

And this is what I've been saying, for the umpteenth time!

Have you heard of Occam's Razor?

Why can't you take what someone says on face value? Surely my simple explanation is more believable than a farcical story that says that the ATM was transformed into a Citiban ATM.

It's not believable to you because you didn't know that it was possible. In your mind, this story is like spotting a UFO.

But I am telling you, yes, it is possible and it happened to me, and I didn't make it up. Why can't you accept that?

What incentive would I have to make up a story like this? That was the explanation in the fifth post of this thread.

Our records speak quite well for themselves, I think.

Anyway, honestly, it's not important why I cancelled these transactions, in my opinion. It's more interesting to me if someone has encountered an erroneous transaction that wasn't reversible. That was my reason for posting.

By the way, in the end, as I said, the only thing I'm interested in is getting my $ back. Everything else is secondary.

I am interested to get to the bottom of it -- but to get my money back.

And honestly as I said, it's irrelevant why I cancelled.

Getting to the bottom of it has nothing to do with intricacies of European ATMs -- what they can or cannot do -- this is a discussion interesting in its own right, but it's not something I'm interested in discussing, especially if it takes 100 posts. I just got into discussing this to give enough details that I didn't make up my story.

I should be able to cancell 99 out of 100 withdrawals and my bank shouldn't charge me for a withdrawal I didn't actually end up doing. The system shouldn't fail like that.

Ok, for the last time, I'll check later to see if there's anything new that's been added.

Well, this is an entertaining thread! I finally came across something to throw more light on the subject, from The Guardian, July 12, 2008:

'A new and confusing message will confront British holidaymakers using cash machines this summer. Don't press the 'yes' button, says Patrick Collinson.

'... after a pilot project by banking group Santander (which owns Abbey), DCC is coming to Spanish ATMs, and the losers will be anybody who thinks they have to press yes to obtain euros from a cash machine. When someone arrives in Spain and puts their cash card into an ATM, after requesting euros, a message will now flash up saying: &quot;You can be charged in GBP.&quot; The screen will also include information on the mark-up, exchange rate used and commission rate. It then says: &quot;Press yes for GBP, no for EUR&quot;.

'Holidaymakers should just press no.

'Santander sees it in a different light. &quot;At Santander ATMs, British customers are presented with a choice of whether they want to see the amount in pounds or euros. The advantage of seeing it in pounds is that the customer knows upfront exactly how much that transaction will cost, instead of having to wait until they receive their statement at home'

http://tinyurl.com/55n7mv

Peace Out!

Thanks derek. So I take this to mean that, no, I didn't make up my story.

The markup in the article was minor though -- compared to what they attempted to hit me with -- a whopping 10%.

Maybe the bank got greedy and bolder as time went on.

&gt;&gt;Author: 111op
Date: 10/28/2008, 03:20 pm
Oh Trophy, gimme a hand, will you? &lt;&lt;

No can do, 111op, I think your remarks to Janisj today at 1:26 pm stepped over the line and you should apologize to her.



I do hope you get your money back... but you shouldn't get nasty simply because others question how you may have remembered something.

Well Trophy, it's tiring. Plus I got into an argument with janis before over whether you can go to Prado during a four-hour layover in Madrid.

Her style may work well with some posters, but it doesn't work with me. I'm not saying that I shouldn't be questioned, but I can't stand these sinuations. From someone who wasn't there!

I almost feel that what some people want is to pick up a fight. Any fight. That's not fair to me, honestly!

And thanks again for uncovering the newspaper article, derek!

Anyway, again, I do have to do something else. And yes, let's just put this behind us. And let me say again, if my posts don't agree with you don't respond to them. It's very simple. I don't get personal unless I feel there's a need to. What's the alternative? You can read this thread for yourself!

OMG 111op! So you are the one who posted that Madrid thing more than a year ago. I was wondering where all the vitriol was coming from on this thread - attacking me for no reason.

I was not the only one who said a 4 hour layover at Madrid was not sufficient to get to the Prado and back BTW. About 50 other people on that thread agreed you were taking a huge risk. Some gambles work out - some crash and burn -- and you certainly would not have told us about missing your flight . . . . .

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35046511

You sure do carry a grudge. Are you mad at everyone else who said you were nuts (which I didn't BTW)??

111op: I want to thank you for your persistence, despite all those with their presumptious and unhelpful remarks.

And, a million thanks to derekflint for his effort and actually being able to shine some light on this. Truly useful information!

We recently returned from Ireland, where I had heard/read DCC was in full swing in many shops. Sure enough, a few days into the trip (I had made no purchases up to that point myself), I overheard a woman on our tour told by a shop clerk &quot;You'll get a much better rate if you pay in US dollars.&quot; I rushed over and told her to pay in Euros, I would explain later. She paid in Euros, but had been paying in US Dollars up until then (and had done considerable shopping).

I made only one purchase during our visit. The clerk showed me, on the digital display of the card processing machine, the price in Euros and the price in Dollars. I jotted down the price in dollars. When I calculated later, the exchange rate was 1.33 versus the rate that day of 1.25.

&quot;And let me say again, if my posts don't agree with you don't respond to them.&quot;

Perhaps we need to suggest a new icon to Fodors -- one that a poster starting a new thread can click on that says, &quot;This thread is not open to discussion. Only those who agree with me should respond. All others should not respond.&quot; Hmmm. Kind of defeats the purpose of a &quot;discussion board&quot;, doesn't it?

Yes, Neo, but I don't think you were interested in a discussion. The vibes I got from you were that you wanted to prove I was wrong and you had to be right.

Normally I'd let it slide, as I'm not interested in these arguments. But I knew that I wasn't lying and I was actually there. So I am not going to give up because you told me something couldn't have happened.

Maybe you didn't intend it to come across that way, but that was how it came across to me. And as I said, ever heard of Occam's Razor? The simplest explanation is the right one. And I explained -- lord knows how many times -- and you doubted my explanations. Instead there had to be a farcical explanation about how a Santander ATM could morph into a Citibank ATM.

How is this a discussion? It's not my definition of a discussion.

And it's not my responsibility (or any poster's responsibility) to defend every detail of a post. That's too high a standard to meet for anyone.

That's what I mean by the &quot;guilty until proven innocent&quot; mentality. This is Fodor's -- it's not a witch hunt. I am a genuine person who travels to Europe and I report things as I best remember. I think that that's good enough for me. If that's not good enough for you, then find someone else to have your &quot;discussions&quot; with and leave me alone!