Article on French Discontent - Is This Accurate?
Oct 20th, 2013, 05:44 PM
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Article on French Discontent - Is This Accurate?
An article published today in the Telegraph disturbed me. It contends that many younger French professionals are fleeing France for other countries because of the high taxes and political situation. I know the article is a bit long, but I would like those who have a closer view, and greater understanding, to comment on whether this is factual, or a British dig at their traditional rivals. Such comments would help me have a less superficial understanding of the culture I so love to visit as a tourist. Much as I would like to, my pitiful French is not up to having such a conversation with an actual Frenchman.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1...t-farrage.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1...t-farrage.html
Oct 20th, 2013, 06:28 PM
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I think this article focusses on the wrong subject: many young people (especially the ones with the best degrees) leave France not because of taxes but because of the situation on the Job Market, which is really bad. Taxes might be a reason for a minority.
So many people are seeking opportunities in other countries, like England (Finance), Silicon Valley (Tech), Germany, or anywhere else.
Cheers
Gilles
So many people are seeking opportunities in other countries, like England (Finance), Silicon Valley (Tech), Germany, or anywhere else.
Cheers
Gilles
Oct 20th, 2013, 06:39 PM
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One of the points of the EU was to enable people to move around the whole of the single market to work and live: and they do, from pretty well all countries, for all sorts of different reasons - adventure, getting something new on a CV, another country seems just more exciting/romantic/whatever. The UK is a close-at-hand route into the English-speaking business world, for people from the continent.
The tone of the article is clearly over-egging the pudding a bit. You get people from the UK who go to Spain because they think Britain is too full of immigrants (seriously). There are Germans who believe their situation is dire. And so on.
The tone of the article is clearly over-egging the pudding a bit. You get people from the UK who go to Spain because they think Britain is too full of immigrants (seriously). There are Germans who believe their situation is dire. And so on.
Oct 20th, 2013, 07:32 PM
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Aren't the French always discontent? Isn't it part of the national personality? It's funny, though, coming on the heels of all those articles claiming (to some extent rightfully) that the Brit expats were all abandoning their homes in France to flee back to Britain. My commune of St-Cirq went from 311 inhabitants to 112 in the last year, the result of both trends (in addition to deaths of ancient residents). But yes, real and proposed taxes are a well-discussed issue (but they always have been; nothing really new there).
Oct 20th, 2013, 08:55 PM
#5
What an incredible hatchet job. Yes, the French like to complain but the fact that France is one of the countries with the least emigration in the world seems to be ignored when anybody whips up one of these articles.
Oct 20th, 2013, 09:19 PM
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It seems that the French government is not ignoring the trend :
http://www.senat.fr/rap/r99-388/r99-38821.html
People leave for many reasons : job market, taxes, red tape and simply because they want to see the world.
The main concern of the Senators is that many of the French expats do not want to come back.
http://www.senat.fr/rap/r99-388/r99-38821.html
People leave for many reasons : job market, taxes, red tape and simply because they want to see the world.
The main concern of the Senators is that many of the French expats do not want to come back.
Oct 20th, 2013, 09:56 PM
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"What an incredible hatchet job.": "all those articles claiming (to some extent rightfully) that the Brit expats were all abandoning their homes in France"
Britain over the past 20 years has exported to France the cash-rich, underenterprising, going on for elderly, whose money (together with a limited sense of enterprise that's still revolutionary in France) has injected cash, and sustainable businesses, into the rural economy the French don't want anything to do with.
In return, Britain's attracted significantly more young Frenchpeople. Some as arrogant Masters of the Universe, who've found JP Morgan and Barclays more amenable and remunerative employers to let them churn out incomprehensible gibberish than the French civil service their polytechniques trained them to sponge on. More, though, as youthful cannonfodder in London's extraordinarily competitive job market.
The problem in assessing either of these trends is that, since there's untrammelled freedom of movement in the EU, there are simply no credible numbers tracing these movements. So ostriches like Kerouac can go on deluding themselves that France's appalling level of youth unemployment is all the result of a capitalist conspiracy, or a fiction.
Meanwhile: every time I get on Eurostar, it's full of people under 35, and more of them speak French than English (and use it to describe their job in London). And London pubs that used to be manned by Antipodeans are increasingly being taken over by French-speaking barstaff.
Britain over the past 20 years has exported to France the cash-rich, underenterprising, going on for elderly, whose money (together with a limited sense of enterprise that's still revolutionary in France) has injected cash, and sustainable businesses, into the rural economy the French don't want anything to do with.
In return, Britain's attracted significantly more young Frenchpeople. Some as arrogant Masters of the Universe, who've found JP Morgan and Barclays more amenable and remunerative employers to let them churn out incomprehensible gibberish than the French civil service their polytechniques trained them to sponge on. More, though, as youthful cannonfodder in London's extraordinarily competitive job market.
The problem in assessing either of these trends is that, since there's untrammelled freedom of movement in the EU, there are simply no credible numbers tracing these movements. So ostriches like Kerouac can go on deluding themselves that France's appalling level of youth unemployment is all the result of a capitalist conspiracy, or a fiction.
Meanwhile: every time I get on Eurostar, it's full of people under 35, and more of them speak French than English (and use it to describe their job in London). And London pubs that used to be manned by Antipodeans are increasingly being taken over by French-speaking barstaff.
Oct 20th, 2013, 09:57 PM
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One statistic that jumped out at me from the article was taxes in France being over 46% of GDP. I looked up that ratio for a number of the EU countries and a most of them are in the same 40% range. We bitch a LOT here in the States about our taxes, yet our ratio hovers around 26%.
Is a puzzlement --
Is a puzzlement --
Oct 21st, 2013, 09:00 AM
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Hey nuke,
> We bitch a LOT here in the States about our taxes, yet our ratio hovers around 26%.
Is a puzzlement --<
No, it's not.
Since RR, the US has created a relatively large group of very, very, very rich people whose major hobby is to slant the political system toward making them even richer.
> We bitch a LOT here in the States about our taxes, yet our ratio hovers around 26%.
Is a puzzlement --<
No, it's not.
Since RR, the US has created a relatively large group of very, very, very rich people whose major hobby is to slant the political system toward making them even richer.
Oct 21st, 2013, 09:14 AM
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Well that famous French comedian who fled high taxes to live in Belgium when he did that he was met with huge disapproval by many ordinary French - so a few rich folks may do it - he said it was the taxes that caused him to move to Belgium - that gets all the press and skews what generally is happening.
I travel a lot in both the UK and France - very few French I know from all my in-laws and friends of my son, etc no one really expresses a wish to say move to the States.
but in the UK many folk I talk to seem to have starry eyes about moving to the U S (or Canada as a 2nd best and easier option)if they could so figure that out. Of course a subjective impression.
I travel a lot in both the UK and France - very few French I know from all my in-laws and friends of my son, etc no one really expresses a wish to say move to the States.
but in the UK many folk I talk to seem to have starry eyes about moving to the U S (or Canada as a 2nd best and easier option)if they could so figure that out. Of course a subjective impression.
Oct 21st, 2013, 09:45 AM
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That's Gerard Depardieu, and along with him, many other rich French people have moved to Belgium. Mostly to Brussels.
Bernard Arnault even applied for Belgian citizenship (which was refused, as he had not lived here long enough to apply).
In Belgium you pay 50% income tax over income higher than 35.000 euros. But other income, from interest, dividends, is taxed at a lower rate. And there is no capital gains tax. This makes it attractive to those who have in income other than wages.
Bernard Arnault even applied for Belgian citizenship (which was refused, as he had not lived here long enough to apply).
In Belgium you pay 50% income tax over income higher than 35.000 euros. But other income, from interest, dividends, is taxed at a lower rate. And there is no capital gains tax. This makes it attractive to those who have in income other than wages.
Oct 21st, 2013, 09:48 AM
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"We bitch a LOT here in the States about our taxes, yet our ratio hovers around 26%.
Is a puzzlement --<
No, it's not.
Since RR, the US has created a relatively large group of very, very, very rich people whose major hobby is to slant the political system toward making them even richer."
Or maybe it's because about 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes at all.
Is a puzzlement --<
No, it's not.
Since RR, the US has created a relatively large group of very, very, very rich people whose major hobby is to slant the political system toward making them even richer."
Or maybe it's because about 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes at all.
Oct 21st, 2013, 09:53 AM
#15
I love it when people try to compare things that are not comparable and then argue about them.
Taxes are one of the main subjects, but nobody ever seems to consider when people are receiving in exchange for their taxes... or not. I am very happy to pay taxes in France, because I can see what I am getting in exchange. Apparently, in a lot of countries, people don't seem to have the slightest notion.
Taxes are one of the main subjects, but nobody ever seems to consider when people are receiving in exchange for their taxes... or not. I am very happy to pay taxes in France, because I can see what I am getting in exchange. Apparently, in a lot of countries, people don't seem to have the slightest notion.
Oct 21st, 2013, 12:29 PM
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Since RR, the US has created a relatively large group of very, very, very rich people whose major hobby is to slant the political system toward making them even richer.>
uh uh like the Koch Brothers who fit this bill exactly.
Kerouac is right - I would gladly pay the tax rate of France if I got the benefits French get like virtually universal affordable health care - a great train system - free day care - and well things that are not essential but nice - like in my ex-wife's town lots of really cheap music lessons, etc. Of course with one of the few if not perhaps only remaining Communist mayors this may not be typical?
Too bad there are always folks abusing the welfare state - both her neighbors have not worked in years, being officially in disability but nevertheless still working under the table - several of my sons cousins fit the same bill.
uh uh like the Koch Brothers who fit this bill exactly.
Kerouac is right - I would gladly pay the tax rate of France if I got the benefits French get like virtually universal affordable health care - a great train system - free day care - and well things that are not essential but nice - like in my ex-wife's town lots of really cheap music lessons, etc. Of course with one of the few if not perhaps only remaining Communist mayors this may not be typical?
Too bad there are always folks abusing the welfare state - both her neighbors have not worked in years, being officially in disability but nevertheless still working under the table - several of my sons cousins fit the same bill.
Oct 21st, 2013, 01:59 PM
#17
Anybody wanting more France bashing will be happy to read this article at The Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1...t-farrage.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1...t-farrage.html
Oct 22nd, 2013, 01:41 PM
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<Or maybe it's because about 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes at all.>
Given the graduated rates in the U.S., I'm less concerned that these folks aren't paying taxes than I am that the working poor - the majority of those who pay no taxes - is increasing.
BTW, I've seen reports that more than 1% of the 47% earn in excess of $1,000,000.00 per year.
Given the graduated rates in the U.S., I'm less concerned that these folks aren't paying taxes than I am that the working poor - the majority of those who pay no taxes - is increasing.
BTW, I've seen reports that more than 1% of the 47% earn in excess of $1,000,000.00 per year.
Oct 22nd, 2013, 11:37 PM
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>>We bitch a LOT here in the States about our taxes, yet our ratio hovers around 26%.<<
Does that include state and local government taxes? You need to be sure you're comparing like with like (not that I have any idea or any will to find out).
Incidentally, I recall a TV news feature about the number of young French entrepreneurial types moving to the UK (under Sarkozy's Presidency, I think), where their chief concerns seemed to be not so much taxes as local French bureaucracy and cultural parochialism impeding initiative and innovation. Plus a normal young person's excitement at experiencing somewhere different.
Does that include state and local government taxes? You need to be sure you're comparing like with like (not that I have any idea or any will to find out).
Incidentally, I recall a TV news feature about the number of young French entrepreneurial types moving to the UK (under Sarkozy's Presidency, I think), where their chief concerns seemed to be not so much taxes as local French bureaucracy and cultural parochialism impeding initiative and innovation. Plus a normal young person's excitement at experiencing somewhere different.
