Lady_Jag

My great-great-grandfather had a linen store there and I'd like to see the street where it was when we go to London in July. Anyone know if this street still around?

Thanks for the help!

VickiH

i don't know of a linen street, and a google hasn't thrown much light on it. nor has streetmap.

it could easily be called something different now. but then the lost london street index (yep, such a thing exists - this is the site for "L" - http://members.aol.com/WHall95037/londonl.html ) doesn't list it either.

i imagine it was in the city (ie the square mile) but i really don't know how you could go about finding it now.

Kayb95

I would guess it's in the city area as well. That's where all the merchants sold their wares back in the day. I know there is a street called Cloth Fair. You may want to find an old London map and see if you can find it.

You may even be able to find an old one online (seems like I used to have a link, but can't find it now.)

I have a couple of old London maps (reproductions) at home - I'll take a look and see if I can find it.

janis

I was thinking of Cloth Fair too, or maybe Cloth Street. Lady_Jag - if you think Cloth Fair/Street might be what you're looking for, they are both located between Smithfield Mkt and the Barbican (and the Museum of London) and not far from St Paul's Cathedral.

VickiH

i'm intrigued now, and i've tried looking it up on various old london street indexes you can find online. no sign. i'm wondering if "linen street" was maybe never it's 'official' name. as the other two posters have said, there's a "cloth fair" near the barbican. and quite a few other streets with cloth-making-type names. never thought of it before, but i guess threadneedle st must have been the site of that sort of business. and possibly petticoat lane...

sheila

We're sure it was London? There IS one in Warwick.

ira

Hi LJ,

I looked in my 1898 Baedeker's guide.

Sorry, no listing for Linen Street.

PatrickLondon

Petticoat Lane was always the market for second-hand clothes, although all around Whitechapel and Spitalfields was - and still is - a centre for wholesale clothing businesses.

If you have his name and/or the name of the business, you could try groups.google.com, and post a message in soc.genealogy.britain to see if someone could look it up in a trade directory of the time. Or another possibility, if you've time when you're here, is to visit the Society of Genealogists Library in Clerkenwell (they'd charge), the Guildhall Library and/or the Metropolitan Archives - between them they should have trade directories of the period, though they would probably not be indexed.

Lady_Jag

Okay, I've found some more specific info.:

My great grandfather was born at the Crown Hotel (which was run by his father)on Winchester St. off of the Caledonia Road in Clerkenwell, London.

Well, reading further in his diary, I see that it was Linen St. in Chester. So sorry for the confusion!! I truly appreciate everyone's efforts!

Maybe I can find the Crown Hotel, or the place that used to be the Hotel in 1870. ??

Thanks so much!

VickiH

clerkenwell is an area sort of north of farringdon and barbican tube stations. i don't know of a caledonia rd, although there is a caledoniaN road that goes north from king's cross (not far away). and i searched on streetmap for winchester street and i can't find one that has the right postcode for that area (most of clerkenwell has a postcode starting EC1).

infuriatingly the lost london streets index for "W" is 'under construction'! the index of victorian london streets - http://www.gendocs.demon.co.uk/lon-str.html - lists a winchester street in "st pancras", which is nearby. it might be that the roads have been demolished to make way for new developments, or else renamed.

one final thought: there's a pub called the crown tavern on clerkenwell green, but "the crown" is a pretty common pub name, so it might be irrelevant...

flanneruk

There's no Winchester St in any part of London with an N or E postcode. Very few streets in Clerkenwell or (where I think your ggf was really born) St Pancras have been renamed in the past 100 years. And there are no "Roads" in what we call Clerkenwell today. BUT:

- There are only a couple of dozen roads at most in London that carry a "the" in popular use. The Caledonian Rd is one of them. This starts at Kings Cross station, which most people would have said was in St Pancras. We certainly wouldn't call it Clerkenwell these days.

- Huge swathes of the streets either side of the Caledonian Rd were destroyed by Hitler or idiot 1950s/1960s town planners. Oddly, there was far less destruction by either group of vandals in Clerkenwell.

So I'd guess your site is off the Caledonian Rd. Most major British libraries will have London street directories for the 1870s, which will show which streets now-dead ones adjoined (and which number Caledonian Rd, if I'm right, Winchester Street was next to). Two seconds at the Family History Centre (10 mins' walk from the Caledonian Rd) will give you chapter and verse.

While there (or possibly via the web at www.censusuk.co.uk) look up your address in the 1871 census. THe associated street index, and the census pages immediately before and after Winchester St, will give you some further information about where it was then.

But you might not nee

flanneruk

PS:

If your ggf was a time-served, former drapers' apprentice in Chester, it's worth knowing that Chester Records Office have terrific apprentices' records.

Unlike in London, where the ancient Companies of tradesmen have had no connection with their apparent trade for centuries, companies in Chester kept their indenture records. I found the original apprenticeship certificate of an 18th century Flanner (practically the only English Flanner) there, and the staff are phenomenally helpful.

Lady_Jag

Flanneruk - I'm running into a brick wall! Every time I find Caledonia Road, I can't find Winchester. I've found 2 Winchester Avenues in the area:

1. One runs into Willesden Lane in Brondesbury (not sure if this is a suburb of London)

2. The second one is by Kingsbury Hospital and Princes Avenue near Honeypot Lane. Again, not sure exactly where this is and if it's even near London.

I think you're right that "Clerkenwell" in the 1870's may have meant a much larger area than it does today. Caledonia Road seems very easy to find and I wonder if it went farther South into London. I see Grays Inn Road and wonder if that is a new name? Could it be the Caledonia Road in the late 1800's I wonder?

Either way, your advice is terrific. I will do more research. I'd really like to get an idea of where my great grandfather was born and possibly take a picture of the street when we're in London this July.

Thanks SO much for your help!!

ira

Hi LJ,

My 1898 Baedeker says this about
Clerkenwell - between Islington and Hatton Garden, the distict of watch-makers and metal-workers....The considerable district of Clerkenwell, now largely inhabited by watch-makers, goldsmiths and opticians, derives its name from the "Clerks' Well" once situated here, to which the parish clerks of London annually resorted for the celebration of miracle plays, etc.

Clerkenwell Road is continued to the E. by Old Street.....

This is still true. See www.multimap.com.

Baedecker lists 4 Winchester streets.
There are also Caledonia Street, Caledonia Terrace and CaledoniaN Rd, Holloway.

The Caledonian Rd ran (and still runs) NS until it hits the Regents Canal. Here it goes SW-NE. Winchester Street ran N-S from this portion of Caledonian Rd to Pentonville Rd. It crossed Collier St.

Collier street is still there, but Winchester has been renamed Killick St.

You can find it by entering Collier street at www.multimap.com.

Hope this helps.

VickiH

Lady Jag, I would ignore your two Winchester Avenues - both are in suburbs of London, but they're not where you want them to be!

I would agree with Flanneruk, it's almost certainly the caledoniaN road that you want, and Ira looks to have found what you need. Just topping this for you so you see it!

Kate

Ira - an answer worthy of Miss Marple herself. If you've evidence that Winchester Street changed its name to Killick Street, then it looks like you've solved it.

Not a terribly glamorous area I'm afraid Lady Jag, but easy enough to find.

And I would certainly agree that "The Crown Hotel" sounds like a pub, perhaps long demised.

ira

Hi Kate,

>If you've evidence that Winchester Street changed its name to Killick Street, then it looks like you've solved it.<

A response worthy of a Judge.

My evidence, m'Lady, consists in a comparison of my 1898 Baedeker map with the map on www.multimap.com.

The streets have the same shapes. Only the name has been changed.

I trust that this is sufficient.

(It has to be. It's all I have. )

Lady_Jag

Eureka!! You've solved the mystery! I can't thank all of you, especially Ira, enough!! I'm so excited!

I see Killick St. on the map and it does appear to be exactly what is described in my g.grandfather's memoirs.

Kate, I didn't expect it to be an exclusive area, in fact, quite the contrary. They were a humble family. John Timewell Hughes ran the Crown Hotel and had a license to sell liquor. It was told that this was a pub of sorts. I think this is why all of his kids were sent out to be raised by other people. I understand this was a common practice at the time and he probably didn't want his children in that kind of environment or under foot.

I've also found a family home in Somerset that is still standing and is now a B&B, but I'm not sure if we can make it out there on this trip.

Going to Killick St. will mean SO much to me, even if the building is not there. Now, for my final question:

How do I get there?! If I take the Tube, would I get off King's Cross? We'll be right by the Gloucester Rd. Station.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

ron

Yes, Kings Cross St Pancras is the nearest tube station to Killick Street. If you are at the north end of Killick Street, you are very close to the London Canal Museum.

Kate

And don't forget to report back. We want photos!

You never know, the building which was the pub MAY still be standing - do you know what number it was? (Of course, Hitler may have done for it, but I'll keep my fingers crossed).