DB

This will drive the Brits insane, but London is starting to resemble New York. As a matter of fact, the United Kingdom is starting to look more like America and less like Europe. Sure there are those blocks in London that are distinctly old time London. <BR>But there are so many chainstores and chain pubs in modern structures now. Add all of the immigrants and congestion and the city just isn't the same anymore. Same for the countryside. Sure there are lots of great rural areas, but in my opinion, cynderblock and unfinished concrete buildings are popping up everywhere. What does everyone else think?

Elwood

Interesting that you started this post. I have never been to London and have been planning to go for the past year. But after I add up the cost (in Canadian dollars) of a weeks visit versus ten days in Spain, London just doesn't interest me. I keep hearing how Americanized it's become and earlier this year Time Out magazine had an interesting article on how the chains and franchises are slowly taken over and in five years London could be rid of much of it's unique shops due to high rents and the power of these chains. Again, I've never been there so I cannot judge by expereience. I just don't know if I can justify the cost anymore. I want to experience "something different". I'd love to hear Ben Haines' comments on this. Please try to convince me to visit London! BTW is the same thing happening to Paris?

Capo

Aren't there a lot of highrise buildings in London now? (I haven't been there since 1980.) <BR> <BR>One of the things I <I>love</I> about European cities like Paris, Rome, and Barcelona -- and Washington D.C. in the U.S. -- is how they relegate highrises to areas outside the central city (an exception, of course, being the Tour Montparnasse in Paris...I once read how that came to be, but I've forgotten.)

Katherine

I've never been to NYC but I LOVE London. Every thing is so proper there. I doubt the same can be said about New York. Sure there are Starbucks every few blocks (I'm actually grateful for that!) but there are wonderful things to see as well. Just walking around the city is fun. Elwood, you must go.

Capo

Speaking of Starbucks... I'd read that the British, while not abandoning tea, have been embracing coffee more and more. True? <BR> <BR>That's actually one of the few things I disliked about Great Britain, tea instead of coffee, which, as anyone knows, is God's chosen beverage. :~)

Katherine

Capo, I would absolutely agree with that. It's becoming much easier to get a good cup of coffee in Great Britian. There's nothing I miss after a month abroad as my Venti Drip! Now if Italy would just get on board. Call me a fool but I like a BIG cup of strong calorie free coffee... none of these three sips and it's gone stuff! <BR> <BR>Starbucks is making headway in an international venue; currently England and Japan, next phase Spain.

Sjoerd

In my humble opinion, Starbucks is in the same category as McDonald's: lousy products and good marketing. Hope we won't get too many of them here in Europe. Italy has the BEST coffee, they definitely don't need Starsucks.

Katherine

Sorry Sjoerd, <BR> <BR>I didn't mean to offend. I think Italy has the best of almost EVERYthing in the world. I just like different coffee..........good thing the world has a lot of variety.

Dawn

I don't think London is turning into New York, but I do think that American Consumerism and Commercialism is working its way through the world. And thats not good. I don't go to Starbucks here, I certainly wouldn't go there. Sjoerd is right, who needs Starbuck's in Italy?

ALW

Capo: I happen to like the UK for the exact same reason for your dislike -- do you have any idea how impossible it is to get a decent cuppa in the US? My family is filled with coffetarians, though, so I'm not allowed to complain too audibly <BR> <BR>Dawn: I don't want to start (or participate in) another one of those bash, bash, bash, conversations, but my 2 cents is that it's just Consumerism and Commercialization in general -- not a specifically "American" disease.

jane

I happen to love Britain and London and would happily visit anytime. We've already visited about 7 or 8 times. But it's funny that you mention the similarity between London and NYC. My husband will only visit London for a day or two per visit because he says it is so much like New York City, and he likes NYC better! I personally don't agree at all and thought he was just strange - it seems he's not alone.

XXXXXX

Maybe London needs Jose Bove....

Carla

When we lived near London in 1979-80, it took all day to shop for groceries in separate shops (greengrocer, then butcher, then newsagent, then someplace else for light bulbs, etc) and from Christmas Eve to New Year's day EVERYTHING was closed. And things ran out(remember John Cleese's cheese shop? You think that was a joke?) Going back subsequently, I was kind of pleased to see "American-style" supermarkets and other conveniences making life easier! <BR> <BR> The chain stores and high-rises (ugly as life) have been in London as long as I can remember -- thirty years at least. But they don't interfere with London being London -- it's history and architecture and atmosphere still sets my heart racing the minute I get off at Waterloo. <BR> <BR>It's more multi-cultural than it used to be, but I like that, too -- it adds richness. <BR> <BR>I love New York as well, but it will never be London! <BR> <BR>PS, Capo, you can get coffee EVEN BETTER than Starbucks in one of London's many Italian restaurants and coffee houses!

Ben Haines

<BR> <BR>Mr Ellwood. Thank you for asking me, but I'm not well placed to comment, as I've not seen New York and all I know of that great city is from films. What I think of as strengths of London are peaceful multiculturalism, whole areas left unaffected by twentieth century architecture and shops, great museums and galleries, and great music, from huge halls to small and beautiful churches. But these are strengths of New York, too -- it's just that most of your churches aren't so old as our oldest. It seems possible (but I'd have to go there to know) that we are truly more relaxed over mixed cultures and races than New York. I've dropped into deep trouble in the Fodors correspondence over Chelsea, I think because some correspondents there are uncomfortable among people who don't look like them, but I'm under attack for saying so. <BR> <BR>Somebody asks: is this Americanisation or globalisation ? I think more the former. In London the weight of Starbucks, MacDonalds, and so on is greater than that of all the globalised cuisines. Some pretty girls in summer turn out in delightful Asian and African dresses, but more appear in what they saw in US movies and on TV. <BR> <BR>I'd say Americanisation is further advanced in the cities of Germany than here, less advanced in Krakow, Prague, Bratislava, and Budapest, and hardly begun in the Balkans. So if you go to the Continent to avoid it you must choose your city. <BR> <BR>We have had immigrants since Roman days and traffic congestion since about 1820. The Hugenots, the Jews, the Germans, and after 1950 the black and Asian people are well known. Less known are the early black people, such as Roman troopers from North Africa who retired in this city and were buried here, and the servants and artisans who came in the eighteenth century. Dr Johnson's manservant was black. <BR> <BR>Tea has only been a popular drink since about 1820. Before that it was light ale. For example, schoolboys were served ale at all meals, not water, which might be contaminated. So a switch away from tea is a change after only two centuries. <BR> <BR>These are all questions much debated here. If we do change, it is knowingly. The original enquiry is one we handle often, and we seem to stay sane -- or as sane as Britons do stay. <BR> <BR>I'll read further comment with interest, and try to write again if I've anything to say. <BR> <BR>Ben Haines, London <BR> <BR> <BR>

Wendy

I lived in Hampstead near Parliament Hill in 1989-90, and driving up Edgeware Road THEN I thought the store front street scene did look like NYC. <BR> <BR>IMHO, the cabbies are changing their look, police sirens have changed to sound like ours, the wigs are coming off in Parliament and it'll look a lot less like London as time goes on ... it is a fascinating melting pot of a city but, what we think of as charming typically 'British' things, they feel make them outdated and not with <BR>the 'times'... and I too think, a lot of it does look like NYC... <BR> <BR>If the rest of the world follows suit, will it all look 'westernized'? I travel to see different places, different cultures, try different food and drink... I like to be in London to 'mind the gap', not to shop at the Gap. <BR> <BR>

MJS

Funny you should say that. I recently visited both cities for the first time in several years. In London I turned to my companion and said "It's like London and New York are changing places." It's definitely not the multiculturalism of London that put me off. I see personally see that as an improvement. It's the noise, dirt, chain stores, boxy architecture, all much more prevalent than I recall from my last visit about ten years ago. And the tube has gone notably downhill -- ask any Londoner -- while, believe it or not the New York subway has improved. I still had a good time in London, but the overall feel of the place was more frantically urban than it used to be. Time marches on.

Capo

I hear you, Katherine. I love coffee, but can't deal with sipping from tiny cups of espresso. It will be interesting to see how Starbucks fares in Spain. Don't know if they'd try the Italian market but, if they did, it would be coming full circle because it was a trip to Italy in 1983, by then marketing director (and now CEO) Howard Schultz, which gave him the idea to bring the "coffee bar culture" to Seattle in 1985 he founded Il Giornale, offering offering coffee drinks made from Starbucks beans (Starbucks was merely a small local coffee company at that time.) In 1987, Schultz bought Starbucks and the expansion was on. Since then, Seattle has become a coffee-crazed city where you can barely walk a block without running into an espresso cart. Is Starbucks the best coffee? Absolutely not. But it's far better than a lot of the stuff that people used to drink. I loved the coffee in Rome but my heart (and palate) belongs to coffee in France. <BR> <BR>Carla, I've no doubt I can...thanks. And I LOVED that cheese shop sketch! <BR> <BR>Ben, I wonder if development pressures may eventually touch some of those areas you mention which have, so far, been left unaffected. Does London have very strong historic preservation laws?

Carla

Capo, <BR> <BR>So, if you read this again -- any pointers on how to make the French-style coffee in the States? I have an espresso maker, but am two long, sad weeks away from my last cup in Paris. <BR> <BR>Ben, thank you for your historical perspective! Lucky you, to live there. <BR> <BR>Carla <BR>("Certainly uncontaminated by cheese!")

JOdy

Capo. <BR>Forget your espresso machine,, buy either a plunger type , like Bodum,or an Italian 3 part coffee maker , Cruisinallo. Load them up with dark roast or cuban coffee and you are all set. I threw my espresso machine away years ago, the damn coffee was never hot!

Mary

Since going to London 3 years ago, I've told my friends I'd rather just visit New York, Its closer, and the foods better. I do agree with you. With the great theater and shopping districts and museums, it is alot like Nyc, and Brits are free to say nyc is alot like London.