NorCalif

Hey Palenque - interesting reading your thoughts on various parts of Amsterdam. As I have mentioned, I am an American who spent the past year living in Amsterdam - we were there for DH's work.

You know, I may have missed something, but I wouldn't really describe the RLD quite the way you do. I never really explored the area that purposefully, but went through various streets there many times as I went about town on my bike. Frankly, I consider a lot of Damrak (the main drag that goes from Centraal Station and is filled with tourist shops, etc.) tackier and uglier than parts of the RLD.

The thing about Amsterdam is how compact it is - many quite respectable restaurants and businesses and historic sites are just a block or two away from windows with prostitutes in them. In fact the RLD is in a very beautiful part of town in terms of the architecture, canals, etc. The RLD always seemed to me to be like a rowdy frat-boy area. Not scary, not especially tawdry in the way really seedy depressing parts of town are in American cities. Just places filled with roving tourists and jovial drunk British stag parties acting like morons. For example, San Francisco (where I'm currently living) has tackier and more depressing areas IMO.

I am actually not a fan of the RLD and really don't understand the desire of non-prostitute-patronizing tourists to go look at women standing around in their underwear, but, as a middle-aged woman maybe I just don't get the appeal. And I don't really enjoy gawking at them - it makes me feel uncomfortable because I feel like I'm looking at people in a zoo. But anyway, I don't think the area is as ugly or scary or shocking as many areas in many US cities.

NorCalif

Oh I just thought of a good comparison maybe, that might help some US people- to me the RLD is much less tawdry than the seedier parts of the New Orleans French quarter (pre-Hurricane Katrina). But sort of the same vibe.

Again, just how it all struck me - others may have different reactions.

Palenque

Nor Calif - thanks for sharing your impressions and i agree generally - and especially about the Damrak being totally tacky - the main portal for folks arriving by train, the Damrak, a filled in former main canal, is lined by gaudi, tawdry tourist-oriented shops - there was a Hooter's here and still is but under a different name - money and cheque cashing shops at rip-off rates, many souvenir shops hawking wooden shoes, porcelain items like windmills, tulip bulbs, etc. That's the west side of the Damrak - the east is rather nice - no shops and some monumental buildings of distinquished architecture.
I'd have to think a lot to think of any main tourist drag in Europe as tacky and as ugly as the west side of the Damrak.

Palenque

Just a thought on canal-side hotels - rooms with views of the canal are sweet but rooms in the back of a canal-side hotel can have viewed of a courtyard full of debris, garbage cans and other person's living quarters across the way. Ask for a room with a view of the canal.

Palenque

A nearby component of the RLD visit could well be Amsterdam's China Town - as Hetismij so nicely described on another thread:

<Well it is Amsterdam China Town - mostly Chinese/Indonesian Chinese businesses and the restaurants are the nearest to real Chines food you;ll get in the Netherlands. There is a Taiwanese Buddhist temple there, which is in fact the biggest traditional Chinese style temple in Europe.
Ok it's not up to San Francisco but it is a genuine Chinese area of the city, not something made up for the tourists. The Binnen Bantammerstraat used to be the centre of it, filled with restaurants and opium dens and the Chinese maffia, but the city clamped down on it and it only has a couple of Chinese restaurants now, and has become a bit trendy. Some of the restaurants moved to the Zeedijk. It has been cleaned up a lot - no more opium dens and maffia, or at least not quite so blatant as in the past.
Street names are in Dutch and Chinese in the area, including on the Nieuwemarkt.
There have been plans to move it to the Oosterdokskade and make it more touristy, but thankfully so far nothing has happened.
You should try to be there for Chinese New year.>

Doing the Rijsttafel (Rice Table), such as eateries in this China Town ubiquitously offer, to me is a di regueuer thing for any first time visitor to Amsterdam to do.

Rijsttafel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Aug 25, 2009 ... The Indonesian rijsttafel (often misspelled rijstaffel), a Dutch word that literally translates to "rice table", is an elaborate meal ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijsttafel

And IMO do NOT judge a Rijsttafel on the number of dishes promised!

Palenque

AH YEH THE INDONESIAN RIJSTTAFEL

I always love, when in Amsterdam, doing at least one meal at a Chinese-Indonese (sp?) restaurant (Chinese-Indonesian) feturing the ubiquitous Reijsttafel - literally a 'rice table' where various concoctions are served over white rice - there will be dozens of bowls of Chinese-Indonesian foods arrayed around the table buffet-style - a big feast for sure. And yes do not judge a rijsttafel on posted menus in windows as to how many dishes it involves - some 'dishes' can be rice crackers for instance - but look at the meat dishes, etc.

But i've never had a bad Rijsttafel in Amsterdam. You can find them at Chinese-Indonesian restauranst not only in the China Town on Binnen Bantermmerstraat, near the Redlight District, but literally all over town - these restaurants are a mainstay in Dutch restaurants - every small town it seems has one and larger towns several - one in each neighborhood - and of course the Rijsttafel is not the only option but a whole array of basically Chinese food with an Indonesian bent.

Above was mentioned the huge Chinese restaurant on a huge boat anchored along the waterfront (inside part not on the harbor itself - east of the VVV (Tourist Office) - and no doubt Rijsttafel is a staple served there too.

An interesting footnote about this mammoth floating Chinese restaurant - it took the place of a much smaller boat that in the wild 80s was a Heroin boat, where local junkies could legally go and shoot up - ah the gentrification of Amsterdam.

annhig

hi pal,

I don't remember seeing the Rijsttafel on the menu at the floating restaurant. it was all very traditional chinese, heavy on the dim sum and chicken feet.

fortunately not a heroin addict in sight!

ruechapon

I really don't understand all the moralizing going on about the Wallen. I would never think to write: well, I went to Notre Dame in Paris today and I was really disturbed to see all these people praying. It calls to mind all the violent acts perpetrated on the part of the church over the last two thousand years. I'm mean, all I could think about were the Crusades, the Church's involvement in the Holocaust, and the Church's anti-feminist, anti-science rhetoric.

Of course that would be ridiculous. Yet when discussing the Wallen people feel free to condemn prostitution, make the (erroneous) comparisons to slavery, zoo animals and etc. It is completely wishful thinking on the part of some that the Red Light District will be dismantled brick by brick. That may be your wish and fantasy but you do a disservice to say it is reality.

The Wallen is what it is. If you are curious about it then by all means stop by and have a look. It is safe and (from an American point of view) it is unique -- this is, after all, largely why we travel, no? To see things we haven't seen before?

I, for one, would be happy if you could leave your self-righteous moralizing off the boards.

Palenque

ruechapon - i agree with what you say and how you categorize the RLD as just another tourist sight and a totally unique one at that.

Anyway moving on:

PLANNING YOUR AMSTERDAM TIME

MAJOR TOURIST SIGHT AREAS
Here are IMO and IME the major tourist venues:

THE MUSEUMS ON MUSEUMPLEIN
You can spend much of a day visiting the Rijksmuseum and the adjacent Van Gogh Museum and soon again, after renovations (if not already) the Stedelijk Modern Art Museum -all plopped together on the aptly-named Museumplein. Also in this area are some of the above-mentioned Diamond Factory Tours and a few blocks to the east the Heineken Experience, one of Amsterdam's most popular things for the younger crowd. the Albert Cuyp outdoor market is near the Heineken Experince. And the famous Leidesplein is also close at hand. And check out the American Embassy, which, with its heavy-duty fortifications, looks like something that could be in Baghdad. finally no trip to Amsterdam in warm weather IMO is complete with at least a brief hike around Vondel Park.

ANNE FRANKE HOUSE AND JORDANN CANALS AND THE DAM
Another grouping of sweet sights IMO is that around the Anne Frank House, lovingly set on one of the cute ring canals that IMO make the Jordaan the prettiest part of this really picturesque city and a walk along the canals to me is a must thing in Amsterdam - just looking at the eclectic houseboats lining the canals is a treat to me. And in this vicinity you also have the Royal Palace, the Nieuwe Kirk (church), Dam Square and the Beginjhof enclosure and the Amsterdam City Museum are of special merit.

THE TRAIN STATION AREA - REDLIGHT DISTRICT - STOPERA - WATERLOOPLEIN AREA
This area, to the east of Damrak, the street running straight south from the Centraal Train Station, whose ornate facade is a main sight in itself IMO, is a third main tourist venue IMO. Here you'll find the Harbor and Waterfront, the Rembrand House, the Jewish Museum, the Dutch Resistance Museum, the Troppen Museum, Waterlooplein Flea Market, the once controversial when built Stopera, more quaint canals, etc.

TBC with a look at each of the three main tourist venues (IMO)

NorCalif

ruechapon re: "I, for one, would be happy if you could leave your self-righteous moralizing off the boards." Right back at ya, buddy. I think your own preconceptions are showing here, not other people's.

Maybe I missed it, I haven't re-read all the posts, but I didn't see any poster above "condemning prostitution". People gave their opinions about whether the RLD was a worthy tourist sight.in their opinion. In mine it isn't, as I said I don't understand the appeal. Mainly because you can see prostitutes all over the world. So what. In other cities, most of them are standing on street corners rather than behind glass, big deal. (And since you appear to be concerned, I personally think prostitution should be legal everywhere, although I do think there are complex issues involving the way to handle trafficking in women who do not have other economic choices.) Walking along staring at people behind glass does make me feel like I am looking at people in a zoo - but not really because they are prostitutes, but because they are "on display" in an artificial way. I actually have said the same thing about models in store windows, etc. I don't enjoy that either. But to each their own.

And yes, when I'm in Notre Dame, I try to be aware of the entire history and ramifications - both "good" and "bad", of the creation and existence of the cathedral and the religion and culture behind it.

As you can tell, your post hit the same nerve with me that some of the earlier posts evidently hit with you! Only I think you're the one that started the "moralizing".

ruechapon

NorCalif, I don't think the word "moralizing" means what you think it does.

I don't think this line of debate is appropriate for this thread. My intention wasn't to hijack Palenque's (very good) thread on Amsterdam. I'm willing to pursue these ideas with anyone willing but I just suggest we move it to a different part of the discussion board.

Ozarksbill

Interesting discussion of Amsterdam. We did our pict report yesterday of "Springtime in Holland and Belgium" at the local library (see Forum trip report). A couple of comments: yes we also enjoyed Amsterdam including major sites mentioned above...moving Ann Frank House, spectacular Rijksmuseum & VanGogh museums, unique Begijnhof, other places also such as Gassan diamonds, Church in the Attic, flower market, churches, canal cruising, and just walking around.

Our Indonesian eatery was Indrapura and what an interesting assortment of tasty side dishes to accompany the copious heaps of rice...wish I had listed them. Also to be noted are the many nearby Dutch towns that can be visited in day trips.

Regarding the RLD/Wallen area, isn't it true that American travelers will encounter "customs" that are different than back home? I just enjoyed strolling the narrow streets and glancing around at interesting people...and no one has mentioned the "coffee houses" where joints are smoked I am told. Now how American is that...in USA we clamp down on pot big time. I might mention some very postive things about the Netherlands including the spirit of tolerance toward gays, the rapid transit system, the prevalence of non-carbon producing bicycles, and flood control engineering such as Delta Works.

Ozarksbill
[email protected]

NorCalif

ruechapon: re the definition of moralizing: One of them is "to speak as if delivering a sermon". Which is exactly what I felt you were doing, lecturing other people about which opinions of theirs they can/can't write about. In my view, this board IS an appropriate place for people to express their opinions and feelings about tourist sights. If some Amish person wanted to write about how they don't like to see the traffic in Paris because they believe the use of cars is abhorrent, well fine. It's part of how they view the world and hence part of the "differences" that you don't encounter only when traveling. You obviously can encounter differences, of opinion anyway, right here on this board. Why try to stifle them?

I actually find it interesting to hear about the different ways people perceive the world - including the religious/political/cultural, etc. lenses through which they do so. Different views of prostitution are just as legitimate a topic to me as different views re: what to wear in various situations, begging, strikes, political demonstrations, what animals (if any) it is "ok" to eat, and so on .... all of which are often discussed on this board.

ozarksbill: re: "...in USA we clamp down on pot big time". Maybe in the Ozarks. ;-> Here in San Francisco you can walk down Haight Street, as well as other streets, any time of the day or night and smell pot just the way you do in Amsterdam.

And in Nevada you can avail yourself of legal prostitutes.

Palenque

ozarksbill: re: "...in USA we clamp down on pot big time". Maybe in the Ozarks. ;-> Here in San Francisco you can walk down Haight Street, as well as other streets, any time of the day or night and smell pot just the way you do in Amsterdam.>

They don't call it Oaksterdam for nothing (Oakland) - i have not seen California pot dispenaries but from what i hear they are very similar to Amsterdamned's coffeeshops - a mind-boggling varities of mind-boggling cannabis on sale from posted menus and samples on show - i agree with ozarksbill's take on things in his/her well-said IMO post.

and like the RLD i think popping into a coffeeshop in Amsterdamned should be 'high' on every tourists' agenda - out of curiosity to see what they are all about, if not to indulge. And tourists should not be afraid of going into a coffeeshop as nobody will give a darn who is there - in fact coffeeshops IME are extremely friendly places where all ages and all types gather - you may well see granny and grandpa here as well.

I am an indulger and to be honest i find coffeeshops and their legal (OK let's not get into technicalities - in effect they are legal if not technically as some will argue - i believe the local local deems cannabis possession still illegal outside the coffeeshop but legal with the back door and front door analogy i have heard given - illegal to bring cannabis to the back door but once inside legal to sell it, in small amounts, but illegal to take it out the front door. But even outside i could not imagine a Dutch cop arresting anyone or ticketing, etc. - but just telling to be discrete, etc.)
In any case coffeeshops pay taxes, etc. and operate as legal businesses with the permission of the city of Amsterdam, whose officials have decided to slash the number of legal shops dramatically - there are i read only a couple of hundred so shops not, dramatically down from over a 1,000 a few years ago = apparently when a current licensee dies or goes out of business that license is put on ice - a decline in shops thru attrition. But there are no plans i think to do away with the coffeeshops and return to street dealing in cannabis as was so prevalent before the toleration of such shops but to limit the number. You will find coffeeshops in nearly every Dutch town and i believe it is strictly up to the municipality to decide that - i believe the policy is that cannabis is still illegal in Holland the gov't has given local authorities control over enforcement of that and whether or not to tolerate regulated, licensed coffeeshops.

In any case the tourist looking for a cup of java should head to a koffieshop, where coffee is served, and not a coffeeshop, a cannabis serving place that could i guess also serve coffee.

And though Holland has joined the smoke-free in public places crusade that most of Europe has followed coffeeshops have a special exemption - not for tobacco smoke, but for cannabis smoke but i hear that the smoking room must be glassed off from the serving area, to protect wait staff, etc. I have not been back to Amsterdam since the no-smoking law took over to see how it is enforced in coffeeshops - whether tobacco smoking is also allowed - previously many Europeans have mixed tobacco with cannabis to make spliffs, etc. I just cannot fathom a cannabis-only smoking area without tobacco too. Hopefully i will be in Amsterdamned this December and will report back - but if anyone can shed light on the current smoking situation in coffeeshops, please do.

melissa19

Recommendations for friendly coffeeshops?

girlbythwhirlpool

Just got back from Amsterdam and happy to report tobacco smoking is still allowed in most coffee shops. Not in all, but in the majority. We stayed in Leidseplein and with exception of de rokerij, most allowed us to smoke our tobacco inside. The law is, as long as the establishment has an enclosed place, separate room, where the workers do not have to go, be,spend time, (work), it is allowed. This was explained to us by a waitress at De rokerij. We actually stayed at the Rookies where we spent lots of time and smoked lots of smoke, tobacco as well. Spent some time in the Red Light District and could not smoke at the Greenhouse Effect. But could at 2 others of which I cannot recall the names. The best thing to do is to just ask the budtender. We even asked the waitress if we could light up when there was a no smoking sign posted and she said, "Sure, no problem!" We also went to coffee shops in Rotterdam as well and had success with smoking our cigs there inside. Killer hash in Rotterdam by the way. Now we are back in the States, Dam sick and also happy to report, after 20 years of cigarette smoking, finally (hopefully) kicked the habit for good this time!!!

Palenque

"budkeeper" i like that! i think girl-pool (and thanks for the report!) would say all of the above coffeeshops are real friendly - they are amongst the long-time establishments that do not strictly cater to tourists - esp young tourists as do the Bulldog Palace, Grasshopper and others. The Green Room, on the edge of the RLD is one where oldsters will feel comfy - lots of old American dopers, who somehow manage to live in Amsterdam, in there - such as John Sinclair and pot guru Jack Herer, who has a famous variety of cannabis named after him on sale in many coffeeshops, regularly hang out here - one of the really more low-key 'normal' if you have it coffeeshops rather than the ones serving mainly tourists (dependably good products at a good price). Whether you will feel fine in a coffeeshop is much like any bar or cafe - depends on your age - some like the Bulldog Palace on the Leidesplein are more like American college hangouts - loud, video screens everywhere, blaring music, etc. But still in those places no one will bat an eye at anybody not in the norm IME.

Palenque

Jack Herer (cannabis) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sep 18, 2009 ... It was named after Jack Herer, author and cannabis decriminalization activist. It has sativa dominant characteristics. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Herer_(cannabis) -

Ozarksbill

I'll have you know that Missouri is far ahead of all states in meth labs...but that is quite a different drug than hash or marijuana. And it is true that county sheriffs conduct raids on houses suspected of being meth labs...especially before election time!

But are we saying that there is no law enforcement concerning hard drugs in S.F. and elsewhere? BTW, homelessness and vagrancy in San Fran is much more noticeable, even a nuisance, than in Amsterdam. So what can we make of that?

One thing that surprises me as a non-smoker. I never thought I'd see the day when cigarette smoking would be restricted in U.S. restaurants. And certainly not in Europe. I can't begin to imagine a smokeless Irish pub.

And did I just "hear" someone compare Nevada with Wallen/Amsterdam as to legal prostitution?

Nothing said about other things dangerous to your health
...like stepping into a bicycle lane or quaffing too much Heineken, Holsten, Jupiler, Tangerlo (actually I collected beer coasters)?

Ozarksbill

NorCalif

Ozarksbill: re: " homelessness and vagrancy in San Fran is much more noticeable, even a nuisance, than in Amsterdam. So what can we make of that? "

I always thought it was because of the bigger social safety net in the Netherlands than in the US. Society seems much more egalitarian there - not perfectly egalitarian of course, but much less difference between the haves and have-nots than in the US. "Socialism" if you will (which of course is not really the correct term, but one that people in the US seems to use a lot.)

Although I did always wonder, what do they do with the mentally ill in The Netherlands? I mean the kind of people who seem to show up on US streets a lot. Do they have mandatory treatment facilities? Can they force them to get treatment whether they want to or not?

And no, I didn't compare Nevada prostitution to Amsterdam's - they have different methods of providing the service. I just said it was legal both places.