kirag

We are an adventurous middle aged couple planning a 3 week European trip for late May into June and would love some advice on how to best lay out our itinerary and transportation. We will begin and end the trip from Los Angeles.

Ideally we'd like to visit Paris for a few days, so I can show my hubby the highlights since I've been there before, then head down to the French Riviera for awhile to explore Monte Carlo, St. Tropez, Cannes, Nice, Antibes, and some of the other special areas and places suggested. Thinking that having a car might be the best way to visit all the places in that area? Or would trains and buses/taxis be easy enough without wasting too much time?

We'd like to continue on to see some of the Italian Riviera, Cinque Terre, Florence (which I love), maybe another coastal village or two, and on to Rome, which I have also been to before and would probably hire a private guide one day to skip the lines at the big tourist attractions.

If time would allow and transportation wouldn't eat up too much of it, we were considering a side trip to Barcelona either from Paris or Nice for a few days, but that may be too much to put into one trip.

I have been reading various posts on parts of the trip, but would love to hear any advice on how to best arrange the timing and order of hotel stays and transportation. We had originally thought of driving from the Spanish to Italian Riviera, but quickly found it would be horribly expensive and cars might not be the best mode of travel through some areas. The one area a car might be useful is the French Riviera it seems, and for any side trips into wine country since we are both into wine, but I would love to hear the opinions of those who have done a similar trip!

On a side note, we want to use Amex points for as much of the trip as possible if anyone has wisdom on getting the most value for the points.

Thanks in advance!

StuDudley

So - you have 21 days available and you want to visit 6 destinations:
Paris
Cote d'Azur
Barcelona
Cinque Terre
Florence
Rome


You'll loose/waste most of a day getting from Paris to Nice, most of a day getting to Barcelona, and then most of a day getting from Barcelona. Most of a day getting from Nice to the CT. So that's 4 days lost in travel. You have 17 day to "be there". That's 3 days in each destination. OK for the CT - but not the others - except maybe Florence.


Personally, I would never visit Florence or the CT in June - too crowded. But maybe you like crowds & standing in lines.


Barcelona and the CT complicates travel. I fly out of SFO and probably have the same flight schedules that you have down south. Getting to Rome takes me two flights. I can tolerate two legs going there - but not coming home (makes for a too long day). I suggest that you start in Rome & end in Paris & forget Barcelona and the CT.


Visit the Cote d'Azur by buses & trains for 2-3 days, then rent a car to visit St Tropez & the Nice Hinterland by car. I would fly between all your destinations - except Rome to Florence. Nice to Paris is OK bt train if you can sit on a train for 6 hrs.


Stu Dudley

kja

I must admit that while I fully understand your desire to see all of these places, I agree that it would be exceedingly ambitious to attempt to fit them all into the same 3 weeks. Are you sure you would be able to see and experience what you want on this trip? Here's what I recommend: Identify the things you most want to see in each location, check their opening/closing times, and mark them on a calendar. Then pencil in your transportation, add some time on either side (for getting to/from your lodging, checking in/out, packing/unpacking, getting lost/oriented, etc.). Then see how things fit together.

Hope that helps!

kirag

Thanks for the advice, Stu! Yes, I can be a bit overly enthusiastic in initial planning stages, so I appreciate the input on time restraints. Barcelona will probably get deleted for this vacation. I'll have to think about CT.

Thanks for the suggestion to reverse the trip. I had meant to ask the community about that to see if it would be a better option.

We enjoy seeing the country while traveling, so a train wouldn't be a bad mode of transport if the scenery is interesting. Otherwise for longer stints with no small town stops in between destinations, a plane makes more sense.

How difficult is it to travel by train with luggage? I only have experience with using the trains in Germany for day trips to places.

kja

IME, traveling with luggage by train is, as a rule, easy almost anywhere in Europe. Some parts of Italy can be a bit of a challenge, if they have only stairways connecting levels (not elevators or escalators); depends on the location.

StuDudley

We took the train from the CT to Nice once. Luggage was a bit of a hassle and other passengers didn't seen to want to let us sit in the seats we had reserved. Someone on Fodors told me it was a scenic train ride - but all I recall was endless tunnels. The drive from Nice to Italy along the costs (we've done this several times) is also endless tunnels. We've only taken the train between Provence & Paris - but we have done it many times. We try to get first class & we always have lots of room for luggage. When we were not able to get first class - luggage was more challenging. The train ride is actually quite scenic.



There are horror stories about the CT as June approaches - so do some research. We were there prior to Rick Steves and enjoyed it very much.



Stu Dudley

kja

To be a bit clearer about timing:

For my interests, Nice, Monte Carlo, St. Tropez, Cannes, Nice, Antibes, and other destinations in that area would take a minimum of 1 week; more would be better unless you want a very fast-paced trip. Most of these places are connected by comfortable and convenient trains and buses – see rome2rio for information about your options, but be sure to click through to the underlying web sites, as the main rome2rio pages are not sensitive to seasonal variation in schedules. Before considering a rental car, make sure you’ve considered where you will park it and whether the cost and inconvenience (it won’t help in any of the cities) are worth it to you.

As Stu has already noted, the Cinque Terre have become almost unendurable during high season. Florence, too (unfortunately). Plan accordingly!

I felt rushed to see Barcelona with 5 full days – and that did not include any time I gave for places many people visit as day trips (e.g., Montserrat, Girona).

And I'm sure that you realize that just the highlights of Paris and Rome can easily take several days each.

IMO, you can have a wonderful vacation -- if you trim it to suit your timeframe. Good luck!

kirag

Kja and Stu,

Thanks for sharing your experiences and opinions! I've never been to CT and was reading about it recently, but it seems it may be better to try that in the off season. Good to know that the train trip between Paris and Provence is a pleasant one. I think that would be a good option to see some countryside too, and I will definitely check rome2rio for more info on local trains. I'm thinking maybe fly between the Cote and Florence....and need to decide between train and plane for Florence and Rome. Any opinions there?

Also I'm sure we want to avoid the film festival and GP in the Cote, so I'll plan around that and either start in Paris or start in Rome depending on availability of things. Any thoughts on how long before and after the film festival and GP it takes prices to return to "normal?"

kja

So you're still thinking of Paris and Provence and the Cote d'Azur and Florence and Rome -- in 3 weeks? IMO, that's a LOT of time in transit for relatively little time to actually see or do anything.

suec1

Well with 3 weeks I'm thinking you could have a pretty nice trip (but nixing Barcelona). I would start in Rome and go north because of the weather. I would probably do it all by train with maybe a car for a day or two in the area around Nice.

So Rome, then Florence, then instead of CT, head to Rapallo. You can day trip by boat from there to the CT and I don't think you will find Rapallo as much of a circus. Or you could explore SML and Portofino instead of the CT. From Rapallo, train to Nice - public transportation is very good there for many of the coastal towns and even into the hills. It might be nice to rent a car there for wineries. Finish off the trip by train up to Paris. I guess if you want to condense everything you could then fly from Paris to Barcelona but I'd save it for another trip as it would combine so well with other places in Spain.

I've traveled alot by train in this area - luggage is not a problem if it is reasonable. If you travel 2nd class, you will probably have to put your bags at the end of the car. I used to be a bit nervous about that - you can purchase a lock - but after quite a few trips, I don't lock mine and have not had a problem. You could pick a seat near by.

Book your trains ahead of time to save alot of money! Some of the routes will be scenic - pleasant but not spectacular. I think a train is much more comfortable and pleasant than flying and for these distances, you won't really save any time by flying by the time you get to the airport / security / check-in. Trains take you pretty much city center to city center.

bilboburgler

My thoughts

1) travel by train and reservations, basically, anyone who will not move is just taking the p@ss and needs moving on unless the train is really really empty. In loads of train journeys, I've only once had a recalcitrant Russian who would not move after a second request and I just went and found the ticket inspector who moved him.
2) luggage, I always travel with beaten up bags and stick them at the end of the carriage where I can see them. If I had upmarket baggage I'd travel first class.
3) I too think you are trying to fit a quart into a pint bottle. Either extend the holiday (actually start sooner would be better) or cull some stops. Barcelona is the obvious first to the abattoir. But I would also take out the Cote as, frankly, it is only pleasant not fantastic like the CT or Florence.
4) Middle-aged, really just a request for clarity. Do you mean that you are up to carry luggage up 4 flights of stairs and walking for 10 miles or that you are 35? You see I just don't know what that means any more.

whitehall

Don’t be afraid to do more iF it suits you and your travel style. We once visited places in 16 countries in 30 days, did a blog about it and it is still the “trip of a lifetime” for the relative who asked us to take her on that whirlwind tour of Europe.

While some may need five days to fully explore Barcelona, for example, others can see and do a lot in less time. Simply google 2 or 3 days itinerary for Barcelona to get an idea of what others do in a short period of time. Same for other cities like Paris and Rome.

We spent 8 nights in the Italian Riviera last fall, visiting 20 places including the available hike between three CT villages. It was all wonderful, but we did enjoy perfect weather. Here is our trip report. Rapallo/Cinque Terre/20 Places/8 Nights Sept/Oct

The year before, we spent 3 nights Barcelona with our daughter (and still went to Girona and the Dali Museum at Figueres) and 3 nights in the French Riviera (Nice, Villefranche, Cap Ferrat, Monte Carlo, Menton) and flew between the two losing only half a day.

We do travel with only carry-on luggage, walk 10 miles or so each day, get up early and stay out late, rely on rail as much as possible and get tickets online, and we are well above middle-age.

bilboburgler

my point exactly.

whitehall

😂

PalenQ

Yes drop Barcelona and you have a nice 3-week trip - all by train or bus if you want (if wanting to rent a car I'd consider doing it from Florence and tooling around Tuscan hill towns for a few days) - even Nice area - most places most tourists want to go are easily accessible by train and a car is a pain along the coast though you are beating the high season so could - I've visited French Riviera several times sans car - easy to hit any town along coast by train or hill towns like St Paul-du-Vence or Vance or Eze by buses.

I'd suggest a smaller town base if driving than Nice - Antibes would be great but again trains and buses go everywhere most want to go.

Book trains very early to get discounted rates on long-distance TGV trains and long-distance Italian trains too- www.seat61.com has lots of info on doing that yourselves online - general info trains wwww.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

gooster

Just to reinforce what others, starting with Stu, wrote, is that you are better off without a car in the Nice area to hit those major locations (We have a place in Nice). The exception is St. Tropez and towns in the hills that are not serviced easily by train/bus like Gourdon. But, you could easily drop St. Tropez from the itinerary or do the ferry trip from Cannes.

As you know, the one way dropoff fees are high. You can train into Italy and pick up a car. If you want to drive between the CT and Tuscany (via Lucca or Pisa), it is possible It is easier to get to more places in Tuscany via car, perhaps dropping off in Florence,visiting there last, before your last train into Rome. That is a lot to pack into three weeks, however.

kirag

Thanks for everyone's input on this trip! I loved reading all of your posts (and your experiences around the CT, Whitehall).

I have formulated a possible itinerary now but am debating a bit between Florence and the Naples area including Positano, or some of the coastal towns around the CT, if not the CT itself. A ferry sounds like a brilliant idea to get places that might be difficult by train actually! Can anyone share experiences with them in France or Italy?

So a couple of questions:

1. Do you think it would be more enjoyable for a first time visitor to France and Italy (the hubby) to go from 5 days in Rome to some of the coastal towns in Italy (and if so which ones?) rather than going to Florence for 4 or 5 days before heading on to the coastal towns in France?

We will have 23 or 24 days total including travel days, so I can spend 4-5 days at each base town and do side trips by train or if really needed, a car....but it sounds like you need an international license in Italy (I never used one in France when I was there several years ago) and don't know how much of a hassle it would be as a whole.

2. For the wine lovers here, are there specific wineries worth taking a day trip to see and do a tasting near the towns we are considering being hotel base? We both love all types of wine, but I imagine we may get our fill of rose just at the establishments along the Cote d'Azur. Would a trip to Provence wineries still be worthwhile? Or would you suggest wineries in Tuscany or (if there are any) around Naples or closer to the CT? This is a totally subjective opinion question I know, but I think it would be worth it to hear anyone's experience and suggestions for winery day trips!

Thanks again!

whitehall

Driving is easy in France and Italy. An "international driver’s license" is merely a $20 AAA translation of the pertinent details of your local license. It’s easy and quick to get if you have a AAA office near you (you don’t have to be a member); it’s good for a year; and it can be helpful if you get stopped by an unfriendly officer. It is not generally required to rent a car. Having said that, you can easily see most of the places you have mentioned very conveniently and affordably with local trains. Unless you want to drive to a vineyard. We enjoy local wines but usually get them at local wine shops or restaurants.

Sounds like you are preferring a coastal vacation, and, unless you really want to see famous art and deal with lines and crowds, Florence may not be the place for you.

kja

IMO, the answer to that depends far too much on one's interests and preferences for any of us to answer meaningfully. Personally, I think closer to a week is reasonable for a visit to the Amalfi Coast, YMMV. I found 5.5 days insufficient just for Florence (not counting any of the surrounding countryside). Everyone differs!

As whitehall noted, getting an International Drivers Permit is no big deal.

gooster

If you are unused to a major city or with aggressive drivers, driving in Naples/Amalfi or in Rome is not for everyone. Nice is a more manageable, although traffic will be heavy in the summer. The countryside is a snap. (I used to live in Lausanne and have driven all over Italy, and used to detest going into Milan).

The Amalfi itself is wonderful -- and also very crowded. There is a lot to see and do, of course, especially with Pompeii and the islands.

The ferries along the Amalfi are a great way to travel between towns or to Capri. it's also a rocky coast and some of the beaches can get so packed. I believed I also mentioned the passenger ferries between Cannes or Nice and San Tropez -- these are privately operated and on the expensive side, but are an alternative and have some great views.

There are actually very few wineries near Nice/Cannes/Monaco -- there are a few up in the Bellet Region. There are more near St. Tropez, and, over towards Bandol (of course, of Rose fame) and further inland and to the west. Tuscany, of course, has many great sub-regions and some of the finest in Italy. If your are driving north from Rome, consider Montepulciano and Montalcino (Brunello). There are also some wine areas in Liguria and in the Amalfi, but I have not been.