PalenQ

There are minimal differences between 1st and 2nd class on those high speed trains.>

showing pictures of empty spanking new train cars yes makes 2nd class look better than first class in most countries - but a real photo and from my experience of riding many such trains is that in reality the 2nd class car will be chock full with people - and the pristine out of the factory condition in the pictures will look let's say more used and first class often will have several or more empty seats.

In 1st class I can usually put my bags on an adjoining empty seat - in 2nd class those overhead racks may be very full.

IME there is a signifcant difference between first and second class on German trains and I am always very happy to have a first-class railpass when it's SRO at times in 2nd class.

Many Germans pay more for first class - each train has quite a few first-class cars - are Germans stupid to pay more - no the penny-conscious Germans gladly pay for the added comfort.

Again those photos are staged photos right out of the factory of brand new trains and not all high-speed trains are that plush.

Not sure why Fuss is trying to distort the difference IMO and saying there is none - I suggest he/she has never ridden in first class or would not say there is really little difference. That's my opinion based on zillions of German train rides.

Fussgaenger

"Not sure why Fuss is trying to distort the difference IMO and saying there is none..."

Whoa. My opinion is based on my experiences. Just like yours is based on your own. I have no interest in distorting anything.

A frequently-cited authority, Man in Seat 61, says pretty much the same thing as me on his website about European train class differences.

"2nd class is perfectly adequate for most travellers throughout Europe. You don't need to pay for a 1st class ticket to travel in comfort these days..."

He jokingly adds, "...rest assured that there are very few peasants and chickens in 2nd class these days..."

Anyway, I didn't say there is no difference. I said there is a difference - and that the difference is "minimal." My word.

I posted the photos to give the OP an idea of what the differences really are. Words don't tell the whole story.

You can look at Man in Seat 61's site and see the same ICE trains if you like with people and stuff in them. They look pretty much the same to me as the ones I posted. Only they're much smaller.

2nd class: http://www.seat61.com/images/Germany-ICE3-2nd.jpg
1st class: http://www.seat61.com/images/Germany-ICE3-1st.jpg

Maybe you have had some bad experiences in trains, PalenQ. I don't doubt your experience at all. I can only say that yours was really different from mine. And I think your opinion on the class differences is REALLY different from what most people say about German trains. Rick Steves offers this advice at his site:

"Many Americans, familiar with the huge difference between first- and coach-class seating on airplanes, are surprised to see just how small the difference is on European trains. Second class is plenty comfortable..."

Anyway, that's fine, you have a right to your opinion on this, I just hope it's alright with you if Rick Steves and Man in Seat 61 and I have different opinions without being accused of "distortion."

bilboburgler

luggage on seats! where were you brought up?

PalenQ

Man in Seat 61 admitted to being an aficianado of first class in a post last year - he regularly rides first class - why - I guess he is just a fool?

You are of course welcome to your opinions and what you find but to say there is very little difference between first and second class belies reality - the reality I've learned in decades of incessant European train riding - discounted tickets come in first class too - the big difference to me is as seen in the phots having both an aisle and a window seat - rows of one seat - the ultimate to me in comfort - no having to ask someone to get up if I want to go to the loo or vice versa - these are not just a little difference IMO - two of these can face each other with a table in between for couples.

The aisle and window seats to me are worth a ton - you obviously do not feel that way and fine - but if there were no difference in classes again why do so many Germans pay extra for it.

and if hopping on trains you have way way way more chance of getting an empty seat or two seats together than in 2nd class - that too is a big perk for those of us who just get up and head to the station in the many countries that allow that like Germany.

I can appreciate that the difference between classes ain't worth the money but not that there is practically no difference in comfort, etc.

We agree to disagree - sorry but those staged photos of brand new trains with no one on them just was too much - like Steves at least show the real photo though folks with a stance may take photos to prove their points as well.

I have tons of photos in my mind but none on my camera, which I rarely take with me that are starkly different.

Cheers

sandralist

I mainly travel on Italian trains, and only occasionally these days on trains in other parts of Europe, but I always prefer First class seating on Italian trains, and even more so in the "quiet" car or "silenzio". I admit I am a lot taller than most people, but just in general it is more comfortable, with more room for luggage. This is especially true in summer, when 2nd class carriages can be filled to overflowing with backpackers who block the aisles with huge packs. Also more families with small children use second class. They have more gear and make a lot more noise.

There are a few inter-city routes that are so old in Italy the carriages they run have pretty awful 1st class seating, so it is not worth the extra euros. Also, between Rome and Florence, it is such a short trip, I might save the money and go 2d class. Maybe ditto for Florence to Venice. But certainlly between Venice and Munich I might much prefer 1st class.

At the end of the day, I don't like to encourage other people to spend on 1st class if they don't think it matters to them -- and in particular if it will cut into their budget for entry to important sites they are in Europe to see. But I admit I am puzzled at the constant reitieration that there really is no dfference between 1st and 2d class (at least for Italy). Every time I travel 2nd class, I am always wishing I had sprung for 1st.

Fussgaenger

PalenQ says, "...to say there is very little difference between first and second class..."

Good. After many failed efforts to understand and restate my simple idea, you got it right.

"...to say there is very little difference between first and second class BELIES REALITY."

Whoa again. BELIES REALITY. You just said, "You are of course welcome to your opinions..." But now you are saying that I (and Rick Steves and Man in Seat 61, each of whom shared the same idea... you saw the quotes and the quotes are real...) NONE of us understands the REAL world of train travel because we don't share YOUR opinion and YOUR experience! How can you welcome an opinion that is based on falsehoods? That makes no sense. You are in fact doing the opposite of welcoming.

It sounds like you've been on the planet for a lot of years, PalenQ. It's probably time you understand something... YOU alone are not the arbiter of what's "real." I acknowledged that your train experiences may have been different. You it seems are unable to reciprocate. You see, others have different but still REAL experiences that lead them to different opinions, PalenQ. If you can't grasp this, if you must insist that people who disagree are ignoring or "distorting" reality, you are simply intolerant.

Also, the whole point here is NOT my-opinion-rules-and-yours-stinks-because-you-don't-understand-reality. The OP and others here need to hear different opinions on such matters. Whether they're from Fussgaenger, sandralist, Rick Steves, Man in Seat 61, or PalenQ. We should be able to toss out our opinions and experiences without feeling threatened by the existence of differences. I think diversity of opinion actually helps others reach better decisions.

Since you believe otherwise, maybe you should help stop all this distortion of reality... write to Mr. Steves and Mr. Seat 61 and tell them to correct their reality-belying comments on their websites (not that I really expect a revision.)

PalenQ

Man in Seat 61 said on Fodor;s that he 'is an aficianado of first class' - what does that mean to you and then apply everything you say to me to the man you quote - yes there is a significant difference between first and second class no one who knows muchabout trains can deny that - whether it is worth the price difference should be the question.

No you will not get a rivision of what years of European train travel and watching tell me - the main difference between the classes is 2nd class is a lot lot lot more crowded - to me that is a big difference - sometimes it is even hard to walk down the center aisle due to bags and detritus being all over.

On the trip of a lifetime go first class - folks carrying baggage around especially will find it more relaxed.

Obviously you are welcome to your opinion - wrong as it may be you have the right to be wrong and insult all the Germans who daily in the thousands pay extra for first class - telling them they are all nuts and rick Steves says so!

Still not sure why you are distoring that but hey go ahead.

cheapest is best is the Fodor's mantra on trains - well on the trip of a lifetime it may not be - and 2nd class seats themselves are not uncomfortable yet when they are all full... I see said the blindman NOT!

PalenQ

luggage on seats! where were you brought up?>

Have you been on many European trains - folks always put their bags or whatever on an empty seat - of course as long as it ain't dirty or whatever. Have to ask Russ' impression of that to get the real story of what is right and wrong - his hero Rick Steves once advocated in an early gudiebook that to clear out a compartment on a night train - when night trains had regular cars on them - was to wear especially stinky wet dirty socks and take off his shoes and put his feet up on the seat opposite - not that was being an Ugly American!

Fussgaenger

"Man in Seat 61 said on Fodor;s that he 'is an aficianado of first class' - what does that mean to you"

I guess I'll need to take your word for that. I guess he sounds confused since he WROTE that 2nd class is comfortable and there's no need to pay for 1st class at his WEBSITE:

"2nd class is perfectly adequate for most travellers throughout Europe. You don't need to pay for a 1st class ticket to travel in comfort these days..."

Like I said, address the question to him - not me. They are both his statements.

Insulting (some) Germans for choosing 1st class?? Never did. I think it's a perfectly legitimate choice. THERE IS a small difference, and so there's a difference in price. I don't care what choice anyone makes as long as they make an informed choice.

I didn't ask you to revise YOUR opinion. I asked you to write Man and Steves to revise theirs since they distort reality.

You seem to have a terribly difficult time understanding others' ideas and points of view. Some intentionally misunderstand and misrepresent others' idea - they create a straw man argument - is that why you are about? And you seem really defensive and angry when others don't share your ideas.

This is going nowhere. I guess you are just to be ignored.

PalenQ

I guess you are just to be ignored.>


Pleeeeeeeeeze! Thank You!

Fussgaenger

Had to check PalenQ out more closely. Seems he jumps to random conclusions about other posters too.

ribeirasacra had to correct PalenQ just yesterday in a separate thread:

"I never said I hated the coast, I have never said it is built up like Benidorm either.
Please read what I put down, in writing, on this forum and not add what you think I say."

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...in-belgium.cfm

Rick Steves my "hero"? Ha.

"Still not sure why you are distoring that but hey go ahead."

Photos and exact quotes are "Distortions"? If those train pics show "new" trains, then both the 1st and 2nd class trains are new. What's distorted?

Based on ribeirasacra's and my own interactions with PalenQ, I'll just expect more random versions of my ideas from him.

Some sort of pathology there for sure.

Reading carefully can be informative. I found this revealing... from PalenQ's post above...

"...the big difference to me is as seen in the phots having both an aisle and a window seat - rows of one seat - the ultimate to me in comfort - no having to ask someone to get up if I want to go to the loo or vice versa..."

So the ultimate seating arrangement involves JUST ONE SEAT. That's how PQ is ultimately comfortable. No unnecessary interaction - or even necessary interaction - with European train passengers. OK. OK. I get it.

PalenQ

For the full text about 1st class on www.seat61.com, not a cherry picked one here it is about first class:

"First class gets you wider seats, plusher seats, more leg and elbow room, and fewer passengers per coach. In most cases, you should assume that's all. Luggage room is exactly the same, although with fewer passengers per coach using it, of course. On a few premier trains including Eurostar, Spanish AVE, Alvia & Altaria trains, Thalys & Lyria, 1st class fares include an at-seat service of food and drink. But these trains are the exceptions. Unless you're told otherwise, you should assume that a 1st class ticket simply gets you a nicer seat with more leg and elbow room, surrounded by more business laptop users and fewer families and kids. On German ICEs and Austrian Railjets, food and drink is not included so costs extra, but in 1st class your order will be taken and refreshments served at your seat by a steward, whereas in 2nd class you'll have to go to the cafe or restaurant car yourself.

Table for two? First class cars generally have seats arranged 2+1 across the width of the car (meaning 2 seats abreast, then aisle, then one solo seat), hence the wider seats with more elbow room compared to 2+2 seating in 2nd class, see the photos on the right. So in a typical first class car you'll find tables for two as well as tables for four - if you're a couple, facing each other across an intimate table for two, both of you getting a window seat that's also an aisle seat is a key advantage of going 1st class. As is booking a 'solo' seat if you're travelling alone."

Note the next to last sentence - one of my key pluses in first class "IF YOU'RE A COUPLE, FACING EACH OTHER ACROSS AN INTIMATE TABLE FOR TWO, BOTH OF YOU GETTING A WINDOW SEAT THAT'S ALSO AN AISLE SEAT IS A KEY - KEY - ADVANTAGE OF GOING FIRST CLASS. AS IS A SOLO SEAT IF YOU'RE TRAVELING ALONG"

Now to me that is a huge perk - I cherish privacy some dont - along with yes wider seats, fewer passengers and others advantages Man in Seat 61 gives - when quoting someone for your own purposes cherry picking is never a good idea.

And above this on his site Man does say 2nd class is perfectly adequate - I believe adequate is the word he used and I would say exactly the same thing.

You are calling such differences as the solo seats for one or two a minor difference so we disagree onwhat minor means - to me it means nearly none but on this solo seat point along I find a major difference whereas you see little difference in what Man in Seat 61 and me see is a KEY perk.

And 2nd class is perfectly adequate but on the trip of a lifetime for folks with luggage especially go first class is my advice.

PalenQ

From www.steves.com - the full text of first class - a bit less positive but points out the key advantages - 'lot more likely to have empty seats'

By Rick Steves
Nearly every European train has both first- and second-class cars (and some newer fast trains even have one or two extra rungs of “premier” or “executive” fanciness), all going at precisely the same speed. Yet on most trains in most countries, tickets in second class cost about a third less than those in first class.
Many Americans, familiar with the huge difference between first- and coach-class seating on airplanes, are surprised to see just how small the difference is on European trains. Second class is plenty comfortable; it’s generally a no-brainer for anyone on a budget. It can also be more fun. Many first-class travelers are business people looking to get work done; you’ll have an easier time striking up a conversation in second class. Most Europeans don’t travel in first class unless someone else is paying for it.
First class is often less crowded — a significant plus on popular routes at peak times, when it can be hard to find a seat in second class. First class also has wider seats and aisles, and is more likely to have amenities such as air-conditioning and power outlets (though outlets are still rare on Europe’s trains, no matter which class). While first class is less conducive to conversation, it’s more conducive to napping.>

the differences Steves and Man in Seat 61 may seem hardly any to some and to others priceless - to me it is often the latter to Russ the former - each to his/her own taste and pocketbook.

Fussgaenger

"And above this on his site Man does say 2nd class is perfectly adequate - I believe adequate is the word he used and I would say exactly the same thing."

Did you read the part I quoted? "Adequate" is right there!

"You are calling such differences as the solo seats for one or two a minor difference so we disagree onwhat minor means"

YES! THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT PALENQ! PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS! You think train travel must be some intimate experience with your significant other - or with yourself! And anyone else who doesn't see it that way is detached from reality!

PalenQ

Man in Seat 61 does not see it as minor as you claimed - you do and that's fine - I am objectively laying out the very real difference - you are denhying there is a difference.

Have your last word Russ and let's move on.

Fussgaenger

"Man in Seat 61 does not see it as minor..."

Heh heh.

So now that you've actually read, copied and pasted Man's webpage with his comments on 1st vs 2nd class differences, you conclude that what Man REALLY meant was that said differences are NOT minor.

But what Man REALLY SAID was that you don't need 1st class tickets to travel comfortably:

"2nd class is perfectly adequate for most travellers throughout Europe. You don't need to pay for a 1st class ticket to travel in comfort these days..."

How is that possible, PalenQ?

Once again, you are not processing what you read thoroughly. It's his job to list differences between first and second. Does he say these are all major or important differences? No. He only gets excited about this single-seat row business. If HE thought, altogether, that those differences he names were really important for everyone, why does he say 2nd class is comfortable and most travelers don't need to pay for 1st? Hmm??

Is he just a bonehead that can't remember that 1st class has the seat arrangement he likes? NO.... He's smart enough to realize that PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. NOT EVERYONE IS GOING TO VALUE THAT SEAT ARRANGEMENT AS HE MIGHT (and apparently as you do.) Not everyone is dying to be alone and silent like the business folks who sit in first class while they work on their laptops or whatever. There are some people who actually enjoy conversing with Germans or other travelers.

He's proabably also smart enough to realize, with a glance at the first class train car, that only a tiny, tiny percentage of the seating is dedicated to the face-to-face, one-on-one seating configuration you adore for couples - that almost everyone is going to be sitting somewhere else in 1st class, most of them in a side-to-side arrangement. Even if he wanted to recommend first class because of those special couples seats, why tell everyone to go 1st class on the basis of so few such seats??

The fact that YOU think those seats make 1st class something to recommend to all does NOT mean MAN thinks the same thing. Don't impose your views on him when he's made it clear he thinks 2nd class is just fine.

"...you are denhying there is a difference."

You are absolutely deaf. And you are no good AT ALL at telling people what they really think.

And you can call me Fuss or Russ, since the truth doesn't matter to you much, but I'm not Russ. But whatever you call me, I won't waste another word talking to you. You have no ears.

Aramis

Russ - did you get banned under your other nick?

PalenQ

I won't waste another word talking to you. You have no ears>

YES! PLEEEEEZE!! Danke Russ!

PalenQ

Don't impose your views on him when he's made it clear he thinks 2nd class is just fine.>

Yes but he talks about being an aficianado of first class and has said in other posts about going first class. And anyone reading Steves and Man's description of the difference between classes will never say 'there is very little difference other than a few inches of extra seat' - there are so many pluses that both Steves and Man articluate on their sites.