mstwomey

I am going to be visiting my son in Heidelberg mid-June but generally plan to use this as a base or starting place. I will fly into Frankfurt and return to US from Madrid (unless I can find a better fare combo). I plan to include a Ryanair flight from Heidelberg-area to Rome, then from Rome to Barcelona. The rest will be likely be train travel and day trips; the question is which are the best routes and stops? I am interested in cathedrals, museums, textiles, tiles, good food, scenics. I think I am more interested in Italy, Spain but open to Switzerland and France. I don't want to over-extend but would like to go wide rather than deep to determine future in-depth travel destinations. I have limited resources.
Any ideas/suggestions would be welcomed. Especially interested in knowledgeable train travelers and itinerary planners.

nukesafe

Too much, IMHO. You have listed five countries (including Switzerland) you may visit in three weeks. If you subtract the days you fly in, and fly out, minus the days you travel between countries/cities, you have about three days available per country.

All you will remember is airports and train stations. I would suggest you cut at least two of the countries from your list, especially if you want to conserve your available money. Transport is expensive.

Pegontheroad

Nukesafe is absolutely right. Too much. I suggest that you get a guidebook or two. I have used "best of Europe" guides, but I prefer to concentrate on just one country. Considering the interests you mentioned, I would think either Spain or Italy would be the best destination. I really think you're biting off too much.

Maybe 10 days in Spain and the same in Italy.

StCirq

I'm a pretty knowledgeable train traveler and experienced trip planner, and I wouldn't wish this trip on my worst enemy. But to help you out, I'd need to know how much of the 3 weeks is spent in Heidelberg with your son - in other words, how much actual time do you have for your travels once you depart Heidelberg (even if it's the full three weeks, it won't work well as you've outlined it)?

CathyM

I agree with the others - even if you want to get a taste of several places this is way too much. For example If you want to visit Madrid and Barcelona you need atbleast a week just for these 2 places.

Aramis

Mstwomey - I hope you are still here after running that gauntlet of chastisements, a practice that, unfortunately, is becoming quite common in these forums.

Of course your trip will "work", and you are the only one to decide if you are willing to accept any limitations on available time per destination.

It is not clear whether you will have these 3+ weeks (What does the "+" mean? 24 days? 25?) after visiting your son or if they include your time in Heidelberg. Can you please clarify the total number of days

I am not sure if the responders so far have overlooked the fact that you are really only identifying 4 destinations as a base for day trips; Heidelberg, Rome, Barcelona, and Madrid. Switzerland and France are mentioned only as alternatives to Italy (Rome) and Spain (Barcelona/Madrid), as I read your post. Correct? More importantly, they clearly overlooked the fact that you stated you wanted to go "wide rather than deep" in order to determine where you might want to return. They would rather try and convince you to travel they way that they would.

I am primarily a driver in Europe, but I have taken a lot of trains, and planes, and after 17 trips, the itinerary thing is fairly well honed.

Presuming that you have 24 "nights" for your trip and that Heidelberg time is both included in that total and will get the same percentage of time as your other destinations, you have about 6 days in each desired destination. That is hardly a complete and utter failure of travel planning on your part.

Heidelberg 6 nights - fly to Rome
Rome 6 nights - fly to Barcelona
Barcelona 6 nights - train to Madrid
Madrid 6 nights

You seem to know that the best option of getting to Rome is on Ryanair, flying out of Frankfurt Hahn into Ciampino, for about $125. Air Berlin also has cheap fares but you need to connect through Berlin or Vienna. An option of you don't get the Ryanair flight you want.

I am not sure if you planned the next flight leg, or just got lucky, but Rome to Barcelona is a competitive route and the fares are also quite decent, with more options. You can take Ryanair again, for about $68 or consider Iberia or Vueling Airlines, who both fly non-stop at less than $125, currently. They offer something other than Ryanairs's severe discount service model, too.

You indicate that you will likely take the train from Barcelona to Madrid. A good option, but again, an extremely competitive route and fares are currently about $55 on a number of airlines. You can weigh that against the convenience of going city center to city center on the train. You still probably have to take a taxi from your hotel to the train station and vice versa (not just the obvious taxis required from and to the airports if you fly so include that in your cost/time evaluation). I can help you more with flights and Spanish rail, if you like.

So, if I have presumed this correctly, you are looking for suggestions on where to take day trips from Rome, Barcelona, and Madrid during your 5-6 nights in each of those cities? Or is there less time because Heidelberg will take more than 6 days, or more time because the 3+ weeks is time after Heidelberg?

mstwomey

Sorry- I should have clarified. We plan to stay in Heidelberg for 2-3 days. My son will join us for trip to Rome. I think my questions are really seeking insight into good train experiences. I find it difficult to determine the most suitable, flexible and economical train tickets to purchase for travel in Europe. Is there a preferred way to coordinate the trips? Should we consider traveling to Rome by train (as opposed to flying)? over a few days? Are there train tickets that cover travel over a day or two? I would like to spend a 7-9 days in Italy and 7-8 days in Spain. (I am not counting major travel days in this count.) As I said, this will be approx 24-25 day trip. Are there some particularly good train trips in Italy? in Spain?

mstwomey

Aramis:
Thank you for your reasoned response. Glad you could make out my purpose and verify the limited research I had already done! Still interested in any train and short trip ideas/suggestions.

Aramis

It is a long train trip from Heidelberg to Rome - anywhere from 10:50 with 1 change (overnight train) to about 18:00 hours with 4 changes required. Of course, that route takes you over the Alps so there is something to see and the night train wouldn't allow for that.

Take a look at www.bahn.de for any rail research. Click on the drop down box at the top where you see the German flag and select USA, or just use this link;

http://www.bahn.de/i/view/USA/en/index.shtml

I suppose you could stop in Switzerland, or Austria/Northern Italy for a couple of days if you want and that would tame the long ride down into manageable sections allowing you to see the scenery. There are a lot of different routes possible that could take you through the Dolomites, or Bern, Basel, Lucerne, Lugano, etc..

Rome to Barcelona is a 19+ hour trip, that you could do overnight with 1 stop or any number of other combinations with a lot of required changes - up to 6 - Nice, Avignon, Grenoble, Genoa, etc. and up to 28 hours of travel time. Flying this leg might make the most sense unless you really want to stop a lot along the way and you have not expressed an interest in that. It is relatively cheap to fly it.

I don' really have a lot of knowledge of the Barcelona to Madrid train. Barcelona is somewhere I have not made it to yet. It is a high speed route that only takes about 3 hours so it is a good alternative to the rigors of air travel. It is probably more efficient than interesting at 200+ km/hr.

For more specific information on rail options and booking, you might try posting another query on that topic, tag it as Germany, Italy, Switzerland and Austria. A lot of folks have in depth knowledge on booking trains and may be able to suggest a route with terrific stops that could help you decide if you wanted to go by rail. Point to point tickets will be your best bet and for that the German Rail site is usually the best research option - I don't know if it is the best booking option.

suze

My one suggestion, do not add Switzerland especially with 'limited resources'. Plenty to more than fill 25 days in Spain, Italy, France!

I think the suggestion of a couple guidebooks at this point in your planning is a good one. There you will find various itineraries already mapped out and most of your questions answered. As you get down to the detailed planning, then these forums can be of more help (your question is so huge it's hard to say anything helpful at this point imo).

zeppole

Bravo, Aramis! Bravo, bravo! Let's put the traveler back into travel. One gets so tired of this inflexible idea about what travel is on Fodor's.

mstwomey:

You identified your interests as "cathedrals, museums, textiles, tiles, good food, scenics."

Italy and Spain really shoot the moon when it comes to textiles and tiles -- and of course they also are amazing when it comes to all the rest of your wishes if you plan the right trip.

For Italy, the region is Umbria has a fantastic history of tile making, as does the area in the southernmost part of the Amalfi coast. They are very different styles, but both are accessible by public transportation --- but not as day trips from Rome, so you'd have to want to stay there.

As for Spain, I think of Sevilla as bring an extraordinary destinations for tiles, but of course Barcelona has its own very distinctive styles and traditions.

Regarding textiles, Italy has a number of places where textiles have ruled, but there is a very important textile museum five minutes outside of Florence in Prato that you might want to look up on the internet and see if you want to visit it. (I don't know about textile history in Spain.)

If you elaborated on what your interest in textiles and ceramics is precisely, you might get some very fine-tuned information about where to go to find examples of these arts that would be most in line with your interests. For example, there are parts of italy that excel in fine wool textiles, while others deal in silks, or brocades and damasks or lace. There is a huge difference in the tile art of Catalona and that of Andalucia or the Moorish areas of Spain.

zeppole

PS: I endorse your idea of using flights from German to italy, and then Italy to Spain. But look beyond Ryan air in your research, because sometimes, once all the taxes and luggage costs are added in, it is just as cheap or simpler to book another airline.

Sassafrass

With 7-9 days in Italy, consider flying into a different city (Venice or Naples for example) from Germany, doing sight seeing there and taking train to Rome, that way spliting your time between two or more cities. End the Italy part of your trip in Rome, and fly out of there to Barcelona or Madrid. Train between these two.

mstwomey

Thanks to all for ideas/suggestions.

smithgardner

Love those comments that Aramis and Zeppole have said, embrace the transience of a European vacation! You are a visitor, and so many people of here completely berate anyone who wants to spend less than 4 or 5 days in one place. Some people enjoy the actual travel, the getting there, the romance of hopping on trains and hoping off in Dresden for a few hours before hopping back on for Prague.

With 3 weeks, I think you could easily do multiple home base strategy. You could from Heidelberg to Munich and night train to Florence, home base for Siena, Cinque Terre, Tuscany, then train to Rome, spend a week there, then fly to Barcelona for a week, then a week in Madrid with day trips to Toledo, Segovia, Salamanca, even Cordoba.

I've "gone wide" on my first 2 multi-country trips to Europe (age 22 and 24, respectively) and I loved every minute of it, despite the chorus of negative feedback that I got on these Fodor forums.

Go for it!!! And have fun, your version of it!!