Every trip is different, and every group of folks traveling together also. This is a great thread covering about every imaginable way to take care of mutual expenses! Great ideas, and good luck to our original poster and her trip ahead.

Reedpaints, you really have my sympathy, I have been in your situation and it turned from bad to worse over the trip. You could have cut the anxiety from the tight person with a knife! We didn't expect her to pay for any of our wine or more expensive meals but she whined at even entering a nice restaurant. I actually told her nearing the end of the trip that she could do what she wanted while we ate at a place we really wanted to try, and she said the usual, Oh that's all right, so I sort of flipped and said it is not alright with you, you won't like the prices and it will make us all miserable so we will meet up with you later. What does she do but come in like a bedraggled dog halfway through the meal and watch us eat!

For sure, have a dinner beforehand and get everything to do with money and who is paying what settled. You saw what she did at Applebees so you know from the onset that it will only be amplified in Europe.

I won't be there in October, but it might help you to know that all of the posters (almost) on this thread will be with you in spirit!

Good luck and let us know!

Reedpaints - You have my sympathy, too. Sounds like this friend of your mother is more than frugal, she is just plain cheap. It will definitely be imperative that you have your dinner beforehand and work things out because if you don't, things will go from better to worse as they did for SeaUrchin.

SeaUrchin, I know how that can be when your traveling companion doesn't even want to look at a nice restaurant. My friend was actually pretty good this year in Europe but two years before we traveled to NYC and she didn't want to spend money for any food. First she wanted to go to the store, buy frozen dinners and nuke them in the microwave at the hotel. I said, you must be nuts, go ahead if you want but not me. Then once we spent 30 minutes finding a deli that was probably 50 cents cheaper for a sandwich and after all that she decided all she wanted was soup (because she didn't want to pay for the sandwich). Why did I travel with her again? Well she is one of my best friends and she really wanted to go on the trip. I did make it clear that particularly in Paris, I wanted to enjoy some nice meals. So I think if you set expectations from the beginning, it will help.

Reedpaints, I really have to thank YOU for starting such an interesting thread.

On this board, most of us are planners. We value surprises, but our goal is to try to avoid unpleasant ones (the museum being closed, the hotel being seriously off expectations or above budget, etc. etc.)

After you related the Applebees story I realized I had framed this as a planning problem almost out of habit, but I now see it is an emotional one. At the risk of sounding like 'Dear Abby', here goes. :)

By researching hotel and restaurant prices you can help desensitize your friend to the element of surprise, but you cannot eliminate the element of her discomfort. It isn't just exceeding the budget that makes her feel anxious, it is almost a phobia about spending money, period. I have several close acquaintances with this problem. If it helps any, know that while they make you suffer, they suffer too.

So you must warn her, and also prepare yourselves, for the reality that no matter what the circumstances, she will feel like she is paying too much. Kinda like the alcoholic who will always feel that 'just one drink' is feasible. But like alcoholism, this problem has nothing to do with you or the circumstances. It is her responsibility, but also her privelege, to deal with it.

Although I don't doubt this will be an awkward if not painful conversation, consider that you aren't really being a friend to her by allowing her to exceed boundaries or cede her responsibilities because you don't want to practice the difficult and challenging art of assertion. In the Applebees case, she panicked about her responsibility, tried to duck it onto your mother - and looks like she was rewarded. Plenty of adult children often try the same thing with their parents. It is NOT being kind to 'rescue' them from being an adult or facing up to their fears. If you continue to do so, you will help destroy the friendship, let alone the trip.

Begin by apologizing - yes! for failing to take the responsibility of telling her this before. (If it helps, you are hearing from a reformed sinner in this regard.) Meanwhile, you can have a good relationship with this person, but not always an easy one.

I do realize this is a lot easier to tell someone to do, than to do.

Reedpaints, My husband and I had a terrible experience traveling with friends. It was a cruise that they begged us to go on with them. Not the best of time for us but we accepted..and decided that in the future perhaps traveling with friends was not a good idea. To this day I am confused because we had gone to SF with them a lot, wonderful restaurants, plays, shopping, taxis etc. But on this cruise nothing worked! As we arrived at each port they wanted to stay on the ship. Well actually the wife did not want to but her husband did. We did not want to take the buses, wanted to hire a car and driver. And of course they were invited. Cost was actually less than signing up for the tours offered by the ship. The husband had a fit. Saw no reason to leave the ship. My husband settled the manner by saying that we were going to hire a car and driver and if they would like to join us we would love to have them accompany us. Because the wife looked close to tears, each time the husband (with a scrowl on his face) decided to. At the end of each trip my husband would put up our fifty percent (price was arranged before we got in the car) and our half of the tip. The other husband would (again with a scrowl) pay his fifty percent share but no tip. So my husband would add more to the tip as we had wonderful drivers that went overboard to make out drives memorable. On board the ship the other husband, who always has a drink or two before dinner any time we had dined with them in the past, did not want to pay for a precocktail dinner. So we ended up treating them to cocktails each evening so the wife (who is a sweetie) could enjoy herself. Same with wine for dinner. And on and on. Unfortuantly be the time we arrived home the friendship had rather gone down the tubes. We were stressed, over budget, felt bad for the wife, resented the husband etc.
Lesson learned by this? Before a trip discuss and than discuss again. If you and your mother wish to enjoy restaurants and whatever let her friend know way before the trip. To the best of your ability let her know what cost will be. Please do not wait until you are on vacationn to try to work this out. Believe my, it will ruin your vacation. We had no idea that we were going to have the problems we had but as with all bad experiences it was a learning experience. In the future whether it was a night out on the town, a weekend away or whatever we made sure that we (if we invited others to join us) made clear what we had in mind. And when invited asked questions so that we did not accept something that did not suit us. I can't help but think of the old saying that it is better to break the engagement when you know that it is not going to work out than get married and go through a divorce later. And believe me please, it it better to have a frank and honest talk before the trip than try to work things out while on vacation. The best of luck to you. I hope you and your mother have a beautiful relaxing a fun time.

I have to say the friend's behavior is beyond frugal and well into ungracious. I don't know if you can solve her problem before the trip. I'd be tempted to say that you and your mother should resign yourself to paying for her share of the meals. Then if she is so minded, she can contribute something. And any such payment would just be an unexpected bonus. I'd be tempted to say something like - we know you're too cheap to pay your proper share of the meals, so don't worry and we will pay if you refuse. I guess that's not very friendly, though.

Will breakfast be included with your hotels? Also, is she willingly paying for her share of the hotel rooms?

The Applebees story makes my blood run cold. I hope your trip works out well, reedpaints, but I think this friend of your mother's is ungracious, stingy, and out of touch with reality. Good luck!

Well this certainly has turned into an interesting thread about money, friends, and how people handle relationships (directly or avoidance).

I've become a big advocate of being direct...hopefully nice, but clear and direct.

I think people are a bit like dogs or cats or small children. If YOUR behavior "rewards" them for their bad behavior, you are actually contributing to their bad behavior. (Now I know I'm going to get flamed for that remark... so be it.)

So if someone who always shorts their share says "Lets just split evenly for convenience" and you don't disagree, they have every right to think that the "convenience" of splitting is worth not figuring the tab to you, and that you are happy with this arrangement. They certainly will continue to propose this.

So even if it's "nicer" to avoid, I think we have a responsibility, certainly to our "friends" and even to colleagues or ongoing acquaintances , to give them honest and direct feedback. Now, I really do try to find a "nice" way to make my points, and I try not to offend them. But if we are going to have an ongoing relationship, I do feel the need to be honest.

I will only "avoid" the issue if its someone I dont' plan to see or spend time with again...

The most interesting situation was the one with the couple, where the husband was the (excuse my being blunt!) cheap boor, while the wife was lovely and mortified by his behavior. Poor woman...I'd probably amend my behavior for her, but still try to find a subtle way to make my point with him. So, if he doesn't want to pay for drinks, I'd get and pay for her drink, and offer to get him a glass of water -- after all, he doesn't want to drink! If he wants to stay on board...why not let him (unless the wife is compelled to stay with him...that is awkward. ) But these people are adults...if they say they want to stay on board, I'd be prone to take them at their word and let them.

>>I think people are a bit like dogs or cats or small children. If YOUR behavior "rewards" them for their bad behavior, you are actually contributing to their bad behavior<<

You are soooo right! I work in the service industry, and I think this goes for customers as well. It always makes me mad that the worst behaved customers seem to get more than the others.

Anyway, back to traveling, I simply refuse to travel with someone that I don't get allong with 100 %. Traveling can be stressful, as wonderful as it is, and if I'm with someone that has a trait that I don't like, such as being cheap, it would ruin the trip for me.

Oh you poor thing. I had a similar situation once when travelling with a friend. She (in order to save money) wanted to drink diet shakes for many of her meals and I (who was really on a budget - but had certainly budgetted enough to eat out every meal) didn't have much choice unless I wanted to go out on my own.
I suggest, as others have, that you have an around the table discussion before you go. You may find that she will be happy to split the bill 3 ways (which will probably work in her favour if she drinks tons of wine and you don't - perhaps you can point this out) - and maybe in kind you can suggest that if you and your mum want to go to a really expensive restaurant and she doesn't then perhaps you can go your separate ways that night or you could offer to pay for her (just don't choose expensive places very often).
If she insists on separate bills make a deal that she has to ask at each restaurant - say "look we are a little embarassed about asking for separate checks-so if that's what you want to do then can you please ask" (maybe she'll be embarassed enough to change her mind).

a few things come to mind: the Applebee's story tells me you are in for a bumpy ride (how old is this woman, anyway? single, divorced... just curious. sounds like she hasn't often had to interact with others)

anyway, part 2: she has no problem ordering drinks? yet is stingy? watch out - this isn't just frugal, I think this person wouldn't mind so much if you did pay her way. frugal people order water. she just sounds selfish and out of touch. try not to let it get to you.

several years ago, post-college, I had a roommate who was frugal (to put it kindly). she drove me absolutely bonkers. I was amazed at the ways she could "save money" - all of it annoying. believe me, when other people around you are tight, you WILL be involved despite yourself. she also had no compunctions about accepting extra from others, either. (i.e. shorting the other roommate).

what I learned from all that is - better to not only travel alone, better to live alone! other people's idiosyncrasies can be such downers. unless you are married to them or otherwise blood, no reason to put up with them in such close proximity.

reedpaints, I think you totally misstated your problem in your first post. A frugal person is one who orders the soup instead of the shrimp cocktail or the salisbury steak not the sirloin.

Your mother's friend is better described as a leech and I hope she doesn't suck the enjoyment out of your trip.

Sticky one - I have traveled with groups your size with "frugal" folks and those who just don't care. I have to admit I don't watch my budget when I travel - and I'm lucky but I understand when someone else is not in the same position, if it hasn't been discussed beforehand - even in terms of the types of places you want to eat out at it can be tricky. Usually I would always work it that I manage the bill - ask my friends to pay their share based on them reviewing the bill. Remind them to tip 10%. Pool the money and I'd make up any difference of someone not covering their fair share. I also sometimes knew if we were at a particularly pricey place I'd just grab the check and say hey my treat - thanks for coming on the trip with me...you can't expect the restaurant to manange this all the time. I also used to have each member take turns picking the restaurant in case one of us was on a budget.

Wow! The Applebee story did it! Yep! Yep! I have to agree with the other comments on how this is not frugality. I was willing to give her the benefit of a doubt, but this story cinched it. She's a Smoocher Sue.

Here's one small solution - do picnic lunches. Tell her to pay exactly 1/3 for her share of the picnic lunch. Each person then purchases her own drink. If she wants to get a bottle or two of wine, at least that's not out of your pocket. Or, you can say that you are drinking from the bottle of water you just purchased and don't need any other drink.

She's going to find other ways to make you pay for something else. The best way out of this is for each person to purchase her own - train ticket, museum entrance, etc.

Most of my friends who are frugal have good reason to be frugal - kids in college, etc. - but they go out of their way to pay for their share fairly.

We have only one friend who can be described as a Total Smoocher Sue and she's a famous nut case - famous in our family anyhow! :) Which leads to a thought: is smooching a disease, like alcoholism?

Total cynicism is settling in here - is this woman agreeing to go to Europe with you because she knows you'll end up paying for part of her trip?

Reedpaints:

Please make sure that your "Planning Dinner" is a potluck & BYOB!

At this "Planning Dinner" announce that because you will be joined at the hip during most of the day that you would like to dine alone.

I know folks freak at the thought of dining alone but no way no how would I let this person ruin my dining experience in Italy.

Of course your mom could join you as she is not the problem but breaking bread with this lady is not going to be pleasant.

Most places have continental breakfast so you could say: We will of course all have breakfast together...and most lunches are kinda looped in with seeing this, that or the other but "travel dinner" is sacred. Insist that you break up for dinner and maybe meet for dessert or coffee afterwards.

Enjoy yourself!

Easytraveler, do you mean a Moocher Molly instead of a Smoocher Sue? I'm just giggling at the thought of this woman going around smooching (kissing) everyone. :)

I like the idea of having dinners on your own, especially if suggested well ahead of time. I don't think the 3 of you can or should attempt to do this trip 24/7!

I would be glad to escort the older and much richer lady to dinner if my food/drink expenses and a gemerous tip are provided.

I must admit, the temptation to show this type of person a take-out or grocery option, then depart for a nice dinner on my own would be high...

And you are doing her a service, but otherwise, it would be difficult to stand being around her for the sightseeing and lunches with no respite.

As soon as she find a cheap option that she suggests, I would drop her off there and arrange to meet her after dinner, at the hotel or otherwise. She'll straighten up faster if you don't reinforce her behavior by supporting it. so don't make her behavior work for her but spoil your vacation and your mothers!!!

WillTravel: You're absolutely correct! LOL!

Moocher Molly it is!

I grew up in a multi-national, multi ethnic environment and when we were kids, there was one kid who kept coming around and asking to "borrow" a dime, 25 cents, etc. which he NEVER ever gave back. The other kids would whisper among themselves something like "Oh, oh, here comes xxxx to smooch my dime!" Must have been a corrupted term from some other language - hehe! My folks had a fit when I came home once thinking it was pretty cool to say "no wanchee" instead of "I don't want"!

BTW, I ran into someone this weekend who is a BIG TIME moocher - intercontinental and international. Am I thinking there's a moocher around every corner because of extra awareness generated by this thread? Maybe. But this person was so excited about his international business deals which, when questioned carefully, ended up in vague phrases. When I said it would be intresting to see him in action, all of a sudden everything became hush-hush and I couldn't - in any forseeable situation - watch him in action. Under these circumstances, I'm always glad to escape with just paying for lunch! :)