3 People travelling -- ETIQUETTE for Sharing Costs
 

Hi all... BIG question about Italian Restaurant etiquette... In the U.S. it's usually not much of a problem to ask for two separate checks when dining with others. We're going to Italy in 3 weeks (there are 3 of us). Two of us (my mother and I) will be joined by her friend who is (how shall I say this diplomatically... sort of frugal). In order to avoid any of us feeling slighted, I need to figure this out before we leave. My mom and I will just split everything and pay as one but how do we do it evenly with the third party? Especially when it comes to tipping etc. And speaking of tipping, this is another subject that I'm going to get a consensus on BEFORE we leave so we know what to do without discussing it. Anyway, is asking for two separate bills horrible? I suspect that it is so are there any suggestions from those of you who travel with others? What do you do when the bill comes?

Thanks!

Most folks just take turns picking up the entire check. But, I'm guessing that would be a problem with this particular person.

If she plans to pay cash, you could always just add up her share with gratuity and collect the cash. If she balks on tipping, well, why quibble?

How can you come to a consensus without discussing this?

Asking for separate bills is not horrible, but it is terribly inconvenient for the entire staff. And, some places may just not comply.

We don't travel with folks who are problematic about restaurant checks, as they tend to be unendurable in all ways.

I travelled all by myself in Italy, but when I was in Germany, they were MUCH MUCH nicer about splitting checks than back in the States. They often asked if we wanted to split the check (it was 4-5 college aged girls usually though, just the sort that would usually split checks), and didn't act as if it was an inconvenience at all, though I know it was a slight one.

When I was in Italy though, they often brought out a paper, and added my bill up right there in front of me, checking everything I had. I don't imagine this would be much harder to do seperately or together.

When I travel with a friend who isn't my partner, we take turns at picking up the bill. I generally avoid travelling with "frugal" friends (what a nice strength-based term that is!) because of the potential difficulties that might arise. However, on occasions where I have found myself travelling with such people, I find it best to spell things out right at the start. In a strength-based way of course, so as not to offend. For example: "Rather than buy into the difficulties and embarrassment of bill-splitting every time we go somewhere, what say we do it in turns?"

However, if I've turned down approaches, I'd find a way of spelling out the arrangement first, but in a "strength-based" wa

Ignore the last 2 lines in the above - I thought I had edited them out.

I'd probably either ask for separate checks or ask the friend if they minded paying you while you handled the entire bill. That way you get to control the tip. If the friend chips something in, great. If not, you can be the judge of what to leave.

The note about it being "terribly inconvenient for the entire staff" to split checks amuses me. I know some waitstaff see it this way, but why is beyond me. If you tell them up front it's no worse than handling two tables--particularly when there's only 3 of you. Wouldn't want their job to get in the way of... their job.

I think in Italy you will encounter a number of restaurants where they will say no, they cannot split the check.

The easiest way to handle this on an ongoing basis is for you and your mother to pay and let the friend reimburse you for her share. Since you have described the friend as "frugal," you and your mother just need to accept the fact that you will inevitably end up paying a little bit more than your share. It probably won't amount to much, but better to come to terms with it beforehand than to feel resentful throughout the trip.

When travelling with friends, we put all of us the same amount of money in one purse and live on it. It is the responsability of one person to deal with checks and tips. No questions asked, we have confidence. We also have one 'frugal' travel friend, but he is never having responsability for that purse!

IUt won'r work with the purse as if she is cheap she will feel that she got the bad end of the stick. To be honest have a chat before you go and set up groundrules or else it can get messy. Bring a calculator and figure her amount at the table. Most places will be a pain about doing separate checks. It is NOT the same as Germany where they automatically do that. If she is that bad....leave her home! :-)

There's a big disconnect here as far as I am concerned...and that is this:

What role is YOUR MOTHER going to play in this? After all, the "frugal" person is HER friend. So why isn't your Mother "discussing" this "issue" with the friend rather than having you end up being the "big bad person"...sorry, but that is EXACTLY what I see looming unless it is decided by everyone involved and discussed by everyone involved in advance.

You want a "strength position" to lead from? Well, here it is: "Im sorry but it is not the usual custom in European restaurants for them to split the check so what do you (the "frugal" one) suggest we do about this?" In other words, stick this ugly monkey on the "frugal" one's back and also give them a little "control" in the decision.

My take: It doesn't quite matter how you handle it, as long as you TAKE CHARGE of the situation. The worst is to let things fester or get out of hand.

(Personally I would rather die than whip out a calculator -- but I come from a generation that was drilled in mental arithmetic, so I can do all the sums in my head anyway.)

Possible approaches are several. You could discuss it beforehand -- "How shall we handle meals?" and after the friend has mumbled vaguely, give YOUR solution: "I'll handle the finances and tell you what you owe." "You could pay for every third meal." Or whatever.

Hi reed,

When we travel with friends who do not imbibe there is a major difference between the cost of our meals and theirs.

We have found no difficulty keeping track of what each of us should pay because we get an itemized bill.

If your mother's friend doesn't want to keep paying cash, you could do all the charging and let her write you a check later.

Re tipping: All prices at Italian restaurants include a 15% service charge. If you wish to leave something extra for particularly good service, it should be no more than a few euro left on the table.

I expect that one of the problems you'll have, if you propose either to a) split the cheque into thirds or b) take turns paying, is that you and your mother will pick up on your companion's "frugal vibe" - and this will inhibit you when it comes to choosing a restaurant and choosing menu items. (In other words, she'll intentionally or unintentionally guilt you into picking cheaper restaurants when it's "her turn" to pay, or guilt you into picking the cheapest items on the menu.) So, proposing to divide the bill into thirds or taking turns paying probably won't work well.

On the other hand, if, as others suggest, you add up her share of the bill, take her payment for it (suggesting a tip amount but accepting gracefully whatever she offers) and then assume responsibility for the whole check, then she can order her frugal meal and you can order what you want. Of course, you won't deliberately add to her stress level by picking exorbitantly priced restaurants, but you'll still have the freedom to order what you want and pick reasonable restaurants where she can order what she wants.

maybe things are changing, but it used to be tipping wasn't a huge deal overseas as it was in the US? i.e. it isn't the 15-20% of the bill we see here, but less? a friend in London a few years back said usually you just round up to an even number and leave that.

I'm only mentioning this b/c perhaps her not tipping very much won't be as big of an issue (just don't tell her 10% is normal, or she will leave nada).

I think we Americans take our customs with us (15-20%) which at first was seen as a windfall by wait staff who were not accustomed to it, and now over the years have perhaps come to expect it?

thoughts?

I do like Baldrick's suggestion - never did it before though.

The simplest thing to do is just split the check evenly under the theory that over the course of a week, it'll balance out. To simplify things even further when my wife's aunt accopanied us to Portugal last summer, we just put everything on our credit card and figured it out when we got home.

However, that sounds like it won't be practical on this trip. The easiest way then is to simply pay for what you've had. If you're intent is to use credit cards, then either she can give you the cash after each meal on when you get home.

The one upside of Europe is that service is included. So, you don't have to worry about debates of what to tip.

Like Ira, I don't want someone else paying for my wine. Last year when my mother & I went to London & Paris, she would not have quibbled about just splitting the check. However, she doesn't drink and I enjoy wine with my dinner and don't want her paying for it. Also, I might want to order something more expensive and don't want the other person paying for it and don't want to have to worry about what I order. The point is, in Europe, the tax and service are included, so it's really pretty easy to figure out how much each person owes. If you want to leave a small tip, that is usally left in cash on the table, so each person can do whatever they want. You should easily be able to figure out what this "frugal" person owes, and if you want to put the meals on your credit card, she can just pay you. Especially with this sort of person, it's very important to have this clear ahead of time!

Discuss before your trip and propose this solution, so you are (hopefully) all in agreement long before the first meal:

When the check comes let the frugal friend see it and write down her own expenses, figured either by hand or using a calculator. You could have her keep a running tab and pay your Mom and the end, or put in her cash at each meal (I suggest her having cash as the only reasonable means of doing this, her trying to do her portion with a charge card isn't going to work).

Asking for separate checks in Italy is cumbersome and simply not available many places.

As mentioned servie is often included in the bill, as far as tipping beyond that just let each person leave a little (or not) at their own place and don't worry about it.

Spliting, alternating, sharing... I'm betting will not work in the dynamic of the 3 people you describe.

A few years ago a group of us, 4 women, went to Paris for a week. After our first meal together we devised a "Paris Pot" with each person contributing the same amount of FF (before the Euro) to the "pot" and we made one person our banker. When we all went to dinner together we paid out of the "Paris Pot" and also included the tip. When our pot got low we simply added equal amounts per person again. It worked great for us and we have since used it on lots of trips. It doesn't matter where we go we always call it the "Paris Pot"! We too had a frugal person on our 1st trip but this solved lots of problems, such as I had.....and you had.....etc. What a pain. Anyhow, as we ventured in different directions during the day each person was responsible for paying for their own food, drink, etc. unless all of us were eating together.

Suspaul, a common purse (we call it The Kitty) is exactly the same as splitting the bill equally between all 3 people. The Frugal Friend is not going to be happy with this arrangement, because she wants to pay only for what she actually eats.

We have traveled many, many times with friends and have tried every variation you can think of on how to split expenses. The bottom line is that anything other than equal splitting is rather a pain in the a$$. A common purse is really the easiest, as no one has to come up with exact change several times a day and you don't have any running accounts to keep track of.

If you are lucky reedpaints, the Frugal Friend will decide after a couple of days that figuring her exact bill and having the right change is a hassle and not worth the small amount of difference.

We once traveled with another couple who wanted to itemize in the same way, but after a few days I was able to point out to them that the total difference between splitting and exact accounting would have come to about $2 and they decided we could split from them on.

My advice: dont let the frugal add up her own because I bet it will come out alot less "by accident". I have seen this with my own eyes when we traveled with a frugal couple.

Another thing you might want to watch is that she will suddenly get "not hungry" and "only want a soup" or even start complaining about stopping to eat all the time. Even watch out for "this place looks too expensive" when in fact it would be a normal restaurant and then you will hesitate to eat there or take the time out for eating at all.

Please learn from my horrible experience and lay it on the table (pun intended) before you even go and lay out the groundwork for when and what type of places you will eat.

Maybe she can just go into a museum while you and your mother enjoy a nice meal and she hesitates to join you.

Good luck from someone who has been there!

Here's an alternate suggestion:

Why not put the finances of meals in the hands of the "frugal" person?

You and your Mom can either give her a lump sum and she'll pay for your meals from that lump sum until it runs out; or, you and your Mom calculate your share at each meal and then hand over your shares to the friend and have her pay the total.

Just tell her during your planning stage that responsibilities should be spilt up: she's responsible for paying for the meals, you will be responsible for buying train tickets, and your Mom will be responsible for whatever.

This way you and your Mom will know that you have paid your share and the question of whether the friend is frugal or not does not become your responsibility.

Planning can be fun. She'll probably have valuable input as well. No need to antagonize anyone and get the entire trip off on a poor start.

Hope this helps!

(This is my second attempt to post a response to this thread. Hope the first response doesn't suddenly pop up and everyone is saying, "What the...?")

oh dear - no way I'd trust my lunch money to Frugal Franny. I don't want to live on soup all vacation.

if she's as bad as you say, let her fend for herself. tell each waiter that you need two checks, up front.

I think it will cost you considerably more to put the finances in the hand of the Frugal One.

Don't put the finances in the hand of the "frugal one"! I traveled with someone like that previously. She would count up what eveyone else put in and just put in the difference for the exact total amount. Someone else counted the money as a double check and noticed that we somehow ended up with no money for tip even though everyone else had put in their tip (she NEVER put in a tip).
She also ordered the most expensive dish and most drinks then want to split the bill evenly (still not tipping so we came up short)! We stopped splitting after we saw that.
We also did the pool-the-money-thing for common charges such as taxis but had problems too. She contributed initially then for later collections, would insist she had already contributed when she hadn't (only 4 of us then so it was REALLY obvious).
djkbooks is right about people with this particular trait being difficult in other ways too. She certainly was. Wanted us to cater to HER preferences during the trip. Needless to say we don't travel with her anymore.

Forgot to say how we handled it. Had one person (not "frugal one") tell people what each one owed. She still shorted us but it wasn't worth ruining the trip by constantly arguing with her. We got separate checks when we could (she didn't come with us to Italy). We just didn't include her in any future trips.

I'd be interested to know if this person is frugal in the sense that she will rip you off if you don't watch out, or if she simply likes to economize. If it's the first case, she will be unpleasant to travel with. If it's the second case, it will be easy to add up what her food costs.

niblette has it right. I've also seen a twist: at times the person collecting cash to put the bill on their credit card and hold the cash... finds that certain people were so far off, they are making up a HUGE difference. (tax AND tip, folks - not either/or/neither)

I've seen both kinds, many times - and what annoys you is the same person does it to EVERYONE until they wise up to her. meanwhile same person brags about all the crap they bought... isn't this dress cute tee-hee.

I don't mind paying extra when a friend is short, I especially don't mind when a friend is broke.. but if it's cluelessness or taking advantage of all others' good nature - welp, leave em home and let em wonder why.

This isn't such a big deal, because as I recall, you don't have to worry about tax and tip in Italy (as Ira mentioned). Tell her you are keeping a record of her expenses so she doesn't end up overpaying (she won't quibble with that.) I would take some index cards, or a small notebook. When she orders, write down her items (won't be many, she'll only order the soup...) AND the price from the menu. Tell her you are only writing her orders down because you and your mom have agreed to split the rest, and will be handling finances after the fact so keeping her record is simplest. Then when each bill comes, you can tally up her portion with no quibbling. She ordered it, she pays. Then you just have to worry about the small amount of the tip that is over and above what restaurants include in the menu prices. Thank goodness prices include VAT too.

When we were in college this was a big issue, because some of us were on very strict budgets, and others were extravagant and rich. The index card system was a bit funny, but it worked. (And sometimes we found BIG errors in a restaurants bill...like when they included stuff on our order that went to the next table.)

I agree with ddgattina that this should not be such a big thing. You and your Mom should just handle the check and let your frugal friend pay for what she orders and add in her share of the VAT and tip. If that's 15% then she can pay 5% of what she ordered. It's true that it won't come out quite even for the tip and tax but maybe you can work that out with her.

I just got back from my trip to London and Paris with my two daughters and a friend I have known since high school. She is frugal, doesn't drink and is fussy about what she eats. When we all went to New York together a year ago, we seemed to spend alot of time fussing about restaurants and who payed for what. This time I was not going to let that mess up my trip. Since I was paying for myself and my two daughters it made sense for me to take charge of the bill. My friend gave me her share and it worked out fine. We tried to pick moderate price restaurants and if all she wanted to order was a salad and water, that was her decision. My Mom(who knows my friend)said, "Don't worry about her, if she wants to eat great, if not she is an adult and can make her choice". It's great that you can still get good advice from your Mom when you are 53!

I would definitely not ask for separate checks and there is no way a "frugal" person is going to go for a "pot" or taking turns paying the bill. You and your Mom will probably have the bigger portion of each bill anyway. Don't let it stress you and your Mom out. I had been worried about it on my trip but everything worked out fine (even if my friend was a little hungry a couple of times).

> If that's 15% then she can pay 5% of what she ordered.

Uhuh, she can pay 15% of what she ordered. :-)

Assuming that your mother's friend is simply thrifty and not a cheat (I think that's a fair assumption or she wouldn't be a friend, would she?), I think a simple statement like: "Mom and I don't want you to pay extra, shall I note what you ordered and you can pay me directly" would suffice.

ssachida - Am I dumb or what! You're right that's 15% of what she ordered, not 5%. Obviously my math brain is not working, not that it's any good most of the time anyway!! Thanks for catching that.

Teehee! What a problem! It grows with each additional post!

I posted my suggestion based on thinking that reedpaints had a Frugal Franny on her hands, not Smoocher Sue.

Smoocher Sues are a totally different problem.

Besides, I was also thinking only of the food bill, not the tip. If reedpaints and her Mom pay for their meals, how can Frugal Franny end up Smooching off their share? She HAS to come up with her share of the food bill.

If the tip is included in the bill, then reed and Mom would have paid for meal + mandatory tip. Again, end of calculations. Frugal Franny has to come up with her share of the meal + her share of mandatory tip.

If the tip is not included, why give the tip money to Frugal? Leave your share of the tip on the table. If Frugal wants to contribute, fine. If not, fine. The waiter will notice.

Sigh.

Practically speaking, how many meals are we considering? Are the three of you going to be joined at the hip? Or will you all be wandering off - to different parts of the same museum, to different museums? If you are like normal tourists, you will not all want to see the same things - so this cuts out almost all the lunches. You could all agree on a place to meet for dinner, and it doesn't have to be every single night.

Or, to cut down argument over which restaurant, you've got three weeks and three people. Each person will be responsible for choosing the restaurants for one week and for paying the (combined and presorted through) restaurant checks for that week - no argument from the others, because they each get to choose their favorite restaurants.

Has your Mom never gone out to lunch/dinner with this friend? How do they handle the check when they are dining together?

I still believe that things can be handled diplomatically and everyone can still have fun together. It doesn't seem like that overwhelming a problem.

On the other hand, if the three of you are going to be sharing a room together, your Mom's friend could turn out to be a Snoring Sam. Now, that WOULD be a problem! :)

easytraveler- many excellent points! i would like to think any group (more than 1 person) traveling together heads out on their own now & then (but am worried that might not be the case in this situation). and i'm guessing at home they could get separate checks with more ease. oh dear, i hadn't even thought this 3 might be sharing a room... then we have more to talk about!

if three share a room, truss her up and put her in the closet! saves valuable space that way.

KIDDING. I AM KIDDING. (and giggling).

poor reedpaints, I think we scared her off.

come back?

Why does being frugal end up being labeled the same as cheap or dishonest? Just because somebody is careful with their money (maybe they don't have a lot of money to throw around), doesn't mean they are going to cheat the others. I know I'm frugal, but I completely pay my share and the standard or even more generous tip.

we take an airplane barf bag and each traveller chips in about $25/day for incidentals (someone then is custodian of the barf bag and tries to jot down what we have used it for!) At meals we then just round up checks for the ease of dividing and tipping and divide in our head. everyone then just tosses in their share. it has never been a big problem. just remember once in awhile to gently remind your "frugal" friend if he/she is shorting you. you could give he/she a calculator. that may shame somene into paying their fair share!

nocinonut makes a very good point. All the "frugal" people I've ever known are really trying to get out of paying their fair share, and hope you won't notice or do anything about it if you do. They "forget" about the taxes, don't believe in tipping, forget about something they ordered, help themselves to "just a bite" of what you're having, even finish your plate/dessert.

It's a bit silly to worry whether someone who is trying to manipulate you might "feel slighted".

When traveling with my friends we use this system:

Roughly, we take turns paying for meals, etc. (Fortunately, we do not have a "frugal" person in the group.) Sometimes convenience will dictate one person buying all the train tickets/museum tickets too. We have one person with a small notebook record all expenditures and who paid.

At home after the trip, we figure out who owes who and we pay up when we get together to see trip photos. Meals are divided equally since we all enjoy wine. Interestingly, it all comes out pretty even!

paula1470, the point I made above is that both tax and service charge are included in the amount you see on the menu, so it is very easy to add up what that one person has ordered. If she chooses not to leave an additional tip on the table, that's her business and reedpaints shouldn't worry about it. Once they've figured out what Frugal Friend owes, they can just split what remains. So simple! And as others have pointed out, this type of person will not agree to a kitty.