chuck

i have volunteered to be the organizer for a family (all adults ) sojourn to spain in july 2002.preliminary planning has led me to choose an apt . north of madrid , rental car pick up and drop off at airport then train to malaga pick up another car then on to our rented villa in nerja.so 1 week in madrid , and 1 week in andalucia..meals will be done on whims , tours we hope to accomplish are the prado, the escorial, valley of fallen, segovia, then when down south granada, ronda nerja, gibraltar.has anyone had a similar adventure that can offer me some words of advice.we will probably start putting deposits down in the month of september -im just hoping i've covered all my bases.. oh i have been to spain frequently (13 times ) but with high school tour groups so i am not totally ignorant but i am venturing into somewhat uncharted waters. thank you for any advice

John H

Hi, Chuck, <BR> <BR>For the third time in 3 years, I am planning a tour for a group of 6-8 people in Europe (have done Italy once and France twice). A few lessons learned: <BR> <BR>1) Book lodging early to get best chice and value. I think this can make a huge difference in how much one enjoys one's holiday and at what cost. I booked all lodging in February for our trip in late September. Evene then I could not get one location I wanted. <BR> <BR>2) When we travel with 6 0r 7 people, we rent two cars: 1 decent sized sedan and 1 7-person minivan. We find that a 7-person minivan is not sufficiently large to hold 6 people and luggage. So, we rent a sedan and a minivan, use the two cars to travel between cities with luggage (if you are staying overnight in different cities), and use the minivan to tour out of each location (6 0r 7 can fit in a minivan). I have found AutoEurope to have the best rates, but check several agencies. <BR> <BR>3) Dole out some of the planning tasks. I usually do hotels and restaurants, but I assign each member of the travelling party ownership of a city/region/certain number of days. Planning is a huge task. Don't do it all yourself. Doing this also generates excitement and ownership/buy-in. <BR> <BR>4) If ypu want some really special dining experiences, do think of booking at least a few restaurants in advance (using the internet, e-mail or fax). We ate at a few Michelin-starred restaurants and it was fantastic. But, with a large group during the summer, you may best be served by booking some of the better or more popular restaurants early. <BR> <BR>5) For your daily itinerary, highlight some things you would like to do each day, but don't worry about sticking religiously to it. The more people you have, the more differences in travel style you will need to accommodate. Build in some "slow" days where some people can do their own thing. (In these instances, lodging near public transportation or near city center or shopping is helpful, as you don't need to worry about the logistics of how to get everyone to the places that they want to visit/shop. So, check the location carefully of the north of the north of Madrid location you are thinking of renting). Also, take time to savor the time together. Evening meals will run several hours -- enjoy the company and the benefit of really getting to know the people with whom you are travelling. <BR> <BR>I'll try to post additional thoughts in the future weeks and months. <BR> <BR>john <BR> <BR>

elvira

Like John, I've planned trips for 6-10 women (friends and family) every year. I say ditto to his advice; here's some additional thoughts: <BR>1) If you can't get everyone into the same lodging, ask if there's a sister hotel nearby that could accommodate the overflow. You don't all have to stay in the same building, as long as you're within a short distance of each other. <BR>2) If there are smokers in the group, agree on how to handle that whether in the rooms or dining out. <BR>3) If there are any folks with food or other allergies, they need to speak up now or forever hold their peace. After arriving at an all seafood restaurant is no time to find out someone's allergic to shellfish. <BR>4) Everyone is responsible for their own luggage unless they've made an agreement beforehand; give them the number and size of pieces they can bring (you scoff now, but think how everyone with small carryons will feel when Uncle Joe shows up with three steamer trunks and two garment bags - and everyone has to squish over to accommodate them). <BR>5) Get the two, or maybe even three, vehicles. Not only is there more room, but people can split up and go different places (8 people want to go horseback riding, 6 people want to go shopping...no "we'll pick you up at 6, ok?" nonsense). <BR>6) In a house or apartment, make sure everyone pitches in. Maybe one person really wants to cook all the meals, but that doesn't mean s/he wants to do all the clean up. This is especially important when you vacate the premises; 99% of the time, you're asked to leave the place clean, beds stripped, refrigerator emptied, etc. <BR>7) Use the internet, spend a couple of Saturdays at the library, get good guidebooks and maps. Carry around a small notebook at all times to jot down ideas and "oh s**t I forgot about that". Treat this like doing a term paper: outline, research on index cards, arrange cards, first draft, final draft. <BR>8) Overplan your itinerary; that way, there's no time when you don't know what to do. As John said, don't live and die by the itinerary, you can toss out whole days if you want, but at least have it planned. <BR>9) This is what I do for my group; use or discard any or all parts: on specialty printer papers (decorated with foreign flags, European money, clouds, etc.) I print out the itinerary, information and history of our destinations, helpful hints for travelers, the rules. One for each member, everything in a three-pronged folder, decorated with stickers, stamps and pictures from magazines and brochures. I include a plastic sleeve for tickets, maps, etc. that either I put in, or the recipient does. During this next year, keep everyone in the loop with occasional updates via email or travel-themed postcards. <BR>10) Make sure you get to do what you want to do, don't just focus on the others. The planning is daunting, but it's lots of fun if you stay organized. <BR>11) About January 2002, you will want to kill at least three members of the group; this will pass. Four days into the trip, the same urge will reappear. It is normal, and no jury would ever convict, but this is the time to go off by yourself...get them all to a museum, and you go for a walk along the river and stop for a beer (or a six-pack, depending upon how really homicidal you feel).

Jim Rosenberg

I'm not sure WHY you guys do what you do, but you're a wonderful asset to your friends and family if that is your bag. <BR> <BR>As for frustrations, here is a little stress relief exercise that you can try right now. <BR> <BR>Relief for a Stressful Day: <BR> <BR>Picture yourself near a stream. Birds are singing in the crisp, cool mountain air. <BR> <BR>Nothing can bother you here. No one knows your secret place. You are in <BR>total seclusion. <BR> <BR>A cool, but subtle breeze wafts the perfume of a million beautiful wild flowers into your nostrils. <BR> <BR>The soothing sound of a gentle waterfall fills the air with a cascade <BR>of serenity. <BR> <BR>You can easily make out the face of the person you are holding under the water. <BR> <BR>There now. Feeling better? <BR>

chuck

excellent advice --it's nice to find out i'm not the only mentally impaired person to try this sort of thing thank you both so much

John H

Great suggestions, Elvira. You have prompted me on a couple other thoughts: <BR> <BR>1) Budget: I actually do a spreadsheet that shows estimated costs for airfare, lodging, food, travel (cars, gas, tolls, parking, and public transport), tourist things (entrance fees). We tend to come in underbudget, but I like everyone to have input into what expense levels should be. Lodging and airfare are easiest to estimate because i have actual figures from the hotels. But good estimates or guidelines can be established for the other items. Again, people have different ideas -- best to get everyone on the same page <BR> <BR>2) Figure out how you will manage group expenditures. Everyone pays own lodging, or roommates/housemates work out their own payments. We had one person pay all costs for meals each day. At the end of the day, I would get the meal expenses from them and note that they had paid them. By doing this, we : 1) didn't have to divvy up meal costs at -- or have separate bills for -- each meal; 2) everyone spent roughly the same amount during the trip. At the end of the trip, I just reconciled what the total meal costs were, totalled up who had paid how much (from the days for which they were responsible), then told people how much they had overpaid or underpaid. I acted as the clearing bank, as it were. Again, making sure that people are okay with a system of payment -- and with not nickel and diming about "he ate the expensive fixed price meal while I only had an entree" -- will smooth things over during the actual trip <BR> <BR>3) I set a limit on each person's luggage (limited each person to the equivalent of 2 22" Rollerboard bags). This deals with some of the issues Elvira raised about luggage. Also, I had actually gone to a dealership here in the US to see exactly how much room the car and minivan had for luggage. So, by setting limits, I felt pretty good that we would be able to fit all the people and their luggage in the rental cars. <BR> <BR>4) Figure out who the drivers will be. Spain is one of the few countries where an International Driver's license is required. (AAA can issue these -- $16 I think, good for one year). We tend to have one driver designated for each car. If you want additional drivers, make sure you let the rental agency know so that their names are on the rental forms (you probably should say who will drive which cars). Also, I always take the insurance coverage when travelling overseas (unlike here in the US, when I use my credit card insurance). I just feel much "safer" and less at risk. (For example, last year, I scratched/dented the side of the car in a tight squeeze in a parking garage. I never got any sort of bill for any repairs.In a related issue, clarify what happens if there is some liability due to a car accident. It's not fair, in my mind, to have the individual driver pay; make sure the group agrees that any damage costs will be divided equally. (This also makes people willing to pay for the insurance on the cars). <BR> <BR>That's all for now. <BR> <BR>john

Patti Suttle

I am doing the same thing-8 friends (10 with my husband and myself) going to Ireland, London and Paris. I did not have a "game plan" when I started and might do a few things different if I do it again but it has turned out really well so far (we leave June 21). I would probably have most of the planning done (places to stay, plane fare, train fare, etc.) and present a "package deal" . I did not do it this time. <BR>I did what Elvira mentioned-I put together a booklet with all the B&B's in Ireland, Hotel in London and Paris information, and info. on the places we'll visit for the "planned' part of the trip. I have planned most of Ireland's days but only 2 evenings (castle dinner and Irish Heritage night). The other evenings everyone is free to do what they want. But, most will probably join my husband and myself for dinner and music in the pubs. <BR>But, they have the option of being on their own. With everyone liking different things I just could not plan out London or Paris for them-too many things to do. We are all on our own but I have an itinerary planned for me and they can join if they'd like and I think several will. I think we will do some theatre together and dinners together at least-at night. Same for Paris. <BR>I've had 3 meetings with our group and we have one last one next week so any questions are asked and I give out the tickets, etc. Each time as the trip got closer the excitement built. Everyone has been very easy going which makes it so much nicer. Most have not been out of the country before. <BR>In Ireland we are doing one regular sized car and one 9 passenger van-4 people in the car and 6 people in the 9 passenger van (that way everyone is comfortable). <BR>I booked all our rooms (needed 3 double rooms and 2 twin rooms) in November and December for late June. That was important especially in Ireland-to get B&B's with that many rooms. <BR>We received a 10 person group discount on our airfare with Continental and for the Eurostar. <BR>Most of the group is not really into planning and I love it so I have done it mostly myself but then again I am the one who has been to Ireland and London (but none of us has been to Paris) but I LOVE to plan and research and Fodors has been invaluable. <BR>And,by the way, in Ireland while staying at B&B's you all have breakfast together so you spend that time together too. <BR>Well, like I said we leave in just about 2 weeks so I will know soon how I did! I believe we will have "the trip of a lifetime-together!" <BR>Chuck-you are wise to start early-good luck-it sounds wonderful. <BR>Patti