itspat

Hello all,
We snagged an amazing priced roundtrip flight to Paris in a couple months. We are content to spend the full 2 weeks in the city, but our restlessness has us wanting to do more. We have been to Paris before pre-kids, but now we will have a couple of small children in tow (4 and under). We are having trouble agreeing on anything (that's a separate issue, I know), but we do know that we can't afford to train hop like we did in our pre-kids days and need to keep the itinerary simple and convenient and kid-friendly. Our ideas - let me know what you think and what makes the most sense. Kids could care less about sights (except the Eiffel Tower) - they just want to run around and be fed and take naps (when it suits them). We will not have a car. All of us will be on foot, and our usual routine is to explore after breakfast, back to hotel mid-afternoon for naps, then back out past dinner. Good public transportation and compact walkability are a must.
1) Paris - Belgium - Netherlands
a) Thinking Bruges, Amsterdam of course, Madurodam...
b) Likely immediate train from CDG to Brussels and go from there...
2) Paris - Alsace - Berlin
a) Would likely either take immediate flight to Berlin, maybe 4 days tops, then train back to Strasbourg for 2-3 days then Paris for a week
b) OR immediate train to Strasbourg, then train to Berlin, then train/flight back to Paris
3) Paris and other areas in France
a) Mont St. Michel/Normandy? Alsace? Which seems more kid-friendly? We've been to Lyon and don't plan to return this trip. No countryside driving. Probably not too many castles.
4) Paris - San Sebastian - Barcelona
a) San Sebastian is admittedly an area we know nothing about but seems interesting. A little intimidated by the whole other Basque language.
b) Fly to Barcelona 4 days tops, train to San Sebastian (+/- Bilbao?) for 3 days tops, then Paris for week

Long post with lots of flight of ideas, but am I missing any crucial considerations? Kids are good travelers but we have low expectations. Relaxation, good food, different pace/view of life and being a little outside of our comfort zone are the general goals. Thanks for any input.

lavandula

Greetings! Having recently been to Mont-Saint-Michel I would think this is not really a toddler-friendly destination. Forget strollers because there are a gazillion stairs going up, and once up and touring the monastery there is little there to amuse young children. I would not be tempted to bring them there.

I would plug for the first of your routings but that's just my interests (France - Belgium - Netherlands).

I am thinking you might want to build in some kid-friendly stops. Playgrounds, parks and gardens would probably do it, and some museums are good for the very young. But you could also think about amusements / amusement parks. Here are a few ideas in Belgium: Mini-Europe in Brussels. Autoworld in Brussels for kids who like cars. Porte de Hal museum in Brussels for medieval armour and weaponry (maybe some preparation in the way of stories of knights and princesses). Plopsaland at De Panne (see Bruges on same trip), or Plopsa Indoor at Hasselt (visit Maastricht afterwards). Space museum at Transinne. Aqualibi at Wavre, outside of Brussels. A canal boat tour in Bruges (or Amsterdam for that matter). Will you have a car? Most of these with the exception of the first 2-3 are better done by car (but of course you can't take a car into Bruges and shouldn't in Amsterdam either). Anyway, you get my general drift; try to mix in kid-focussed with adult-centred and everyone gets on better. A lot depends on your kids: some kids like boats, trams and you can get away with an ordinary ride being something unique. But children are universal and every country will have a selection of these sorts of amusements.

Lavandula

lavandula

Oh! Just saw you won't have a car - so instead pick 2 - 3 bases and take day trips by train out from your base. Brussels is feasible as a base in Belgium if you want to see Bruges, but Plopsaland is really getting a bit far to use Brussels as the base. Space museum is not out of the question from Brussels. Plopsa Indoor might be hard. Pretty much everything else can be done from Brussels. An umbrella stroller is an asset - not hard to lift the whole stroller with the child in it, and good for sleeping in while out and about. Ours was deliberately cheap so if it was damaged we didn't care.

Lavandula

ahbonvraiment

itspat

This was helpful, thank you. Couple follow up questions:
1) How does Mini Europe in Brussels compare to Madurodam in Netherlands? (I've been to the latter.)
2) How about this loop - Fly into Paris, train to Brussels right away. Bruges 1 day, Brussels 1-2 days, train to Strasbourg for 2-3 days, then train to Paris for final week. Hectic up front but hopefully not toward the end. In this scenario, is a stop-off in Luxembourg worth it especially with young kids?
3) Berlin is understandably way out of the way, but my spouse really wants to go and I'm not sure when we will be back to the area. Between the 2 (and with kids), do you think Berlin-Strasbourg-Paris or Berlin-Brussels-Paris is more practical?
Thanks again.

itspat

Spouse feels Channel might be too rough/cold and Mediterranean might be too hot, with kids. I'm at a loss. At this point we just need an itinerary and GO.

lavandula

Here is a link to Mini-Europe. We have never been to Madurodam but my daughter really liked Mini-Europe when she was about 6 - 7 years old.

https://www.minieurope.com/en/

It's a number of Europe's main attractions in miniature all in the one setting, with miniature trains and people. It is near the Atomium, which my daughter also liked, which is space-age on the inside (long escalators, coloured lights, lighting display).

I would probably not opt for a stop in Luxembourg if you are headed to Berlin. Most trains running to Germany from Brussels run via Cologne, which is much further to the north and on the way to Berlin. Luxembourg is a good 2 1/2 hours from Brussels and it is pretty but not a lot to do there withe the exception of the casemates. However if you are wedded to Luxembourg then it is a good location to jump off and see Trier and perhaps go up the Mosel instead of doing Berlin.

We visited Berlin with our daughter when she was 4. To be honest the neighbourhood we were in (part of Friedrichshain) was a bit poor in terms of playgrounds (i.e. none) and I would pick a neighbourhood this time based on the availability of a playground and a laundromat. We were travelling for my research and dad was with our daughter during the days. They went to Legoland in Potsdamer Platz (a winner), a Spree boat trip (less exciting for her), there was a temporary Barbie exhibition which I saw too and which in all honesty attracted adult male collectors quite a lot (!); we saw a market in Alexanderplatz, and spotted painted bears. Bears are the symbol of Berlin and there were a number of bears on display around the city. Had we had more time we would have made it to the Zoo and the Pfaueninsel (peacock island), which is a bit out of town. They also saw the Wall, and dad explained that it was the longest artwork in the world. There is a lot of walking in Berlin because it is enormously spread out and you absolutely must have a stroller; make sure you get accommodation near the U-Bahn.

So here are two options which you can work on:

Fly into Berlin (open jaw)
4 days in Berlin
Train to Brussels
3 days in Brussels
Train to Paris
4 days in Paris

or

Fly into Paris (open jaw)
4 days in Paris
Train to Brussels
3 days in Brussels
Train to Luxembourg with night in Trier
Cruise up the Mosel and down the Rhine (or train down the Rhine) (2 - 3 days)
Fly home via Frankfurt

No recriminations if you don't like either of these, it's just somewhere to start.

Lavandula

lavandula

Oh bum, I just saw you have a fixed flight into Paris - in which case you might fly into Berlin from Paris to start the trip and fly back into Paris from Frankfurt for the second itinerary. Otherwise you are a bit hamstrung by the distances.

Lavandula

menachem

Amsterdam is incredibly children friendly. I would say, with toddlers: make sure you can split up, so each parent can have time off, and also so each toddler can have a parent to themselves for a bit. Most people don't have many conscious memories of the time they were 4 or so, your children will remember very little of you trip. It's the little things that count. Some time in a playground, or chance occurrences will turn out to be memorable. I.e.: it's the daily stuff that needs thinking about, not the big sights or destinations.


If it were me, I'd stay in Paris and really slow down and stay put. If only because it will make it more relaxed for you. Staying put WILL get you the opportunity to have some time off from parenting. Or to go on a mini expedition somewhere with one child. Or do something playgroundy and picknicky together as a family. Why would you want to be on planes and public transport for a considerable portion of your time, when you have Paris as a family. Doesn't make sense to me. You say you adapt your traveling style to your children, but that's not what you are laying out.

ahbonvraiment

StCirq

Amsterdam puts the fear of God in me these days. Just crossing the street can be heart-stopping. I wouldn't chance it with toddlers.

And just wanted to add that there are miles and miles of wonderful beach/water venues on the Mediterranean that aren't the Riviera. Everything between Montpellier and the Spanish border is delightful, relatively uncrowded (by comparison), and certainly a lot more economical.

menachem

Lots of good changes in the infrastructure. Walkability has certainly increased a lot, over the course of 2-3 years or so.

itspat

Thank you so much all, this has been helpful to me in focusing. We have done a complete 180 or maybe 150 (bear with me), so here are the 2 finalists:

1) 1 week Brussels as a base for other parts of Belgium and possibly internationally Amsterdam, Luxembourg, or Aachen vs. Koln - all this depending on how kids are feeling and what is keeping them happy. We are willing to pay higher fares for any train tickets at this point, or stay put and enjoy just walking, exploring, a favorite park or attraction or food stop. Next week in Paris, same thing.

2) From CDG, start a ~3-4 day experience in an Alps town, ~3-4 day experience in a beach town, then final week in Paris. All staying in France.

For option 2, are beaches on West and North coast really cold in August/September? We would prefer not the Riviera this time as we will be extensively visiting on a trip next year as well as other countries. For Alps, any thoughts on kid-friendliness of Annecy vs. Grenoble vs. Chambery vs. Aix-les-Bains?

Lavandula - thank you for feedback on Berlin - we are excited to go, but will have to figure out how to do it on another trip. Appreciate your help!
Menachem - thanks for your perspective. Either of the above options I believe will be wonderful and satisfactory for our group of all ages and interests.

lavandula

For the (long-distance) trains: if going to Aaachen or Köln, book 4 seats facing each other (if you are going to book a seat for the little one, she might still be a lap child), with a table. Those little boxes of Lego are just about perfect for Mum or Dad to build for the elder child. They come recommended for age 5 up but if you are going to do the building no problem. Aachen is a good, walkable little town a good distance from Brussels with a lot of charm and you can see it in a day. That would be one of my favourites for a day trip. For Mum and Dad: lots of history there (they used to crown the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire there). There is also an amazing museum with treasures from the middle ages. Bakeries in Germany (absolutely everywhere) supply lots of options for lunch for a range of picky eaters (sometimes even eat-in, but mostly for picnicking) and Trinkkakao (chocolate milk) in their fridge.

In Brussels: parks: Parc de Bruxelles (Warandepark) in the centre of town (playground), park at Porte de Hal (Hallepoort, or Halle Gate) (playground), next to the museum; Cinquantenaire Park next to the Autoworld museum (no playground I think but lots of opportunity for running and rushing about). Follow up Cinquantenaire by a trip to nearby Mérode shops and visit Le Pain Quotidien, a bakery-café chain for big shared tables with three different kinds of chocolate spread and pots of jams, then catch the metro from there back to your accommodation. All very child-friendly.

Lavandula

jpie

The sea at the beaches on the Atlantic in France will all be warm enough to swim in August-we have a home south of La Rochelle near Royan and it is super warm-we usually can swim through September-our record is October 8th! It is similar to the East coast of the US. Brittany up near Dinard might be a bit coolers but definitely not an issue in August to swim particularly if it continues to be hot.

You might consider using Bordeaux as an access point to the beach areas-maybe Arcachon or Pilat Dune or anywhere along the coast to stay. You can take a TGV from Paris and be there in 2 hours. Bordeaux itself is a much more kid friendly size than Paris, has a wonderful tram system for getting around, and its airport is small and easy to get in and out of. You can even take a train from Bordeaux directly to CDG. So if you put Bordeaux at the beginning or end of your trip (renting a car to get to a beach area) you could then fly from there to Berlin for example (non-stop on easyjet).

Here is a link to their airport site that shows where they have flights to. It is so much easier than a major airport like CDG. It is similar in size to an airport like Palm Springs or Burbank if you have ever flown into either of those.

In general I would choose the Atlantic over the Med any day in August-the med coast gets too crowded hot and expensive.. Of course if you are going towards Brugges etc. then you could look at the beach areas in Belgium and northern France but I think the beaches are much nicer on the west and southwest coast of France (but I admit I am biased

My brother in law lives in Chambery. It along with Annecy and Aix-les-Bains would all be better choices I think than Grenoble IMO. But be aware those areas can get really hot and humid in August (and mosquitoes!) so we always prefer the coast that time of year.

jpie

Sorry forgot to add link for the Bordeaux airport:

https://www.bordeaux.aeroport.fr/en/...-from-bordeaux

itspat

jpie - this was great, many thanks! Few follow up questions (and excuse my ignorance here):
Does Bordeaux feel like a smaller version of Paris, or do you find the "vibe", architecture, food, everything to be totally different?
Is there ANY possible way to get to a beach or vineyard from Bordeaux without a car? Something not totally torturous for little kids?

StCirq

Bordeaux is absolutely nothing like Paris, nothing. It's a conservative town, but one that mayor Alain Juppé has totally transformed in the last 10 years into a city full of wonders. The huge pedestrian area around the rue Ste-Cathérine is bustling with shops and cafés, the new Cité du Vin is fabulous, there's a new and vibrant river culture, the tram system is outstanding, and of course bordelais restaurants are incomparable (there isn't any such thing as Parisian food, as it's an amalgamation of every kind of French cuisine imaginable plus every kind of ethnic food). Bordeaux of course, being a big city, has myriad culinary offerings, but like any region of France has its specialties, in this case lamprey eels, foie gras, duck and goose, oysters and fish and shellfish from the Bassin d'Arcachon and beyond, Charolais and Blanc d'Aquitaine beef, and the signature cannelés cakes/pastries. Being a huge port and supplier of wine and other products down the Gironde and into the southwest interior during the 17th and 18th centuries, it was a major center of wealth, and its relatively uniform and sometimes ornate architecture shows it.

It's an easy train ride from Bordeaux St-Jean to Arcachon. From there you can get local buses or minibuses to the Dune du Pylat or Cap Ferret if you like.

You can take a short train ride (1/2 hour) to the famous wine town of St-Emilion, the ramparts from which you can see acres and acres of vineyards, and in the center of which you can toss huge amounts of money at a glass or bottle of wine. It's a bit of a hike up the hill from the train station though, and be prepared for ungodly crowds of people. I'm sure the wonderful tourist office in Bordeaux offers myriad minibus tours to other vineyards in the vicinity, but I've never taken one, and I'm not sure the formality of the wine chateau experience in the Bordeaux area would hold much interest for children.

jpie

St Cirq is right that Bordeaux isn't really a "mini Paris" but I think for a family with small children it will be really nice-still cosmopolitan but with a much smaller "foot print" than Paris. Using a tram instead of the metro is 100 times easier and the wide open spaces of Place Quinconces, one of the largest places in Europe will allow you lots of place to play. Kids also love running around in the Miroir d'eau a flat water art "fountain" on the banks of the river. And all of our friends with kids love carousels and Bordeaux has a particularly nice one in the center of town in a pedestrian walking zone.

jpie

Here are some photos to give you a better idea of what Bordeaux is like:

Place de Quinconces with the tram running by




Kids playing in the Miroir d'eau



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