2 months in Europe Jan-Mar: help me prioritize!
Dec 12th, 2010, 06:35 AM
#21
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I just feel compelled to add:
These things really are much more subjective than most people are willing to let on. I often read on Fodor's people using historical weather averages or astronomy tables as "proof" the temperature is warm enough during some travelers time frame, or the days aren't short or what have you.
But if you live in a climate like San Francisco or London and haven't moved yet because of it, you might not appreciate that others don't take these things as normal. Likewise temperatures. Plenty of my UK friends and Pacific Northwest friends tell me that they could never live In Italy -- way too hot! -- and they'd even miss the rain.
Likewise, I'm sure many people would find the day plenty long if the sun didn't actually set until 6:45 -- but my experience of being in London during March was that the onset of twillight fell quite early, and that even on a sunny day, there was only a few bright hours at mid-day. Paris in my experience enjoys more clear winter weather -- and altogether the City of Light is a brighter place to be.
Anyway, I'm quite glad I visited Scotland, and it rained buckets when I was in Glasgow. The sky was slate and I didn't see the sun until noon -- and that was in September. So maybe I should have gone in sunny March!
These things really are much more subjective than most people are willing to let on. I often read on Fodor's people using historical weather averages or astronomy tables as "proof" the temperature is warm enough during some travelers time frame, or the days aren't short or what have you.
But if you live in a climate like San Francisco or London and haven't moved yet because of it, you might not appreciate that others don't take these things as normal. Likewise temperatures. Plenty of my UK friends and Pacific Northwest friends tell me that they could never live In Italy -- way too hot! -- and they'd even miss the rain.
Likewise, I'm sure many people would find the day plenty long if the sun didn't actually set until 6:45 -- but my experience of being in London during March was that the onset of twillight fell quite early, and that even on a sunny day, there was only a few bright hours at mid-day. Paris in my experience enjoys more clear winter weather -- and altogether the City of Light is a brighter place to be.
Anyway, I'm quite glad I visited Scotland, and it rained buckets when I was in Glasgow. The sky was slate and I didn't see the sun until noon -- and that was in September. So maybe I should have gone in sunny March!
Dec 12th, 2010, 08:30 AM
#22
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A funny thing happens with day lengths around mid-March, which affects Scotland just as it does Italy.
Some appear to have forgotten, but next year on the 20th there'll be what most people call the vernal, or March, equinox - and that day, all over the globe, day and night have as near to equal lengths as makes no difference!
If it's really necessary, look here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox
Peter
Some appear to have forgotten, but next year on the 20th there'll be what most people call the vernal, or March, equinox - and that day, all over the globe, day and night have as near to equal lengths as makes no difference!
If it's really necessary, look here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox
Peter
Dec 12th, 2010, 11:51 AM
#23
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Phew, glad we sorted that one out. Since my visit to Glasgow is family-driven and I am going to be flying out of there, the length-of-day discussion is irrelevant to my plans. As it is I expect the days in Italy to be relatively short as well, seeing it is at a similar latitude to where I am now.
However I am still curious to hear people opinions regarding climates at this time of year... Browsing the forums I have seen conflicting opinions on whether Tuscany is nice in the wintertime - also, over at Lonely Planet I have a poster pleading with me to not go to Cinque Terre in the winter, saying it is desolate and too cold to enjoy walking around. I've heard similar things about Venice during this time of year.
Thanks again for the comments, people. In addition to the above, can anybody advise me in my decision whether or not to start my trip in Sicily? As my first time in Italy, would it spoil me to go to the craziest most exotic part of it?
I think the Iberia vs Cen Europe debate is waaay to hard to figure out, and maybe I'll just go where the wind takes me when I've finished in Italy. My varied musical interests certainly can take me both ways. Any additional insight there would be very helpful.
Thank you!
However I am still curious to hear people opinions regarding climates at this time of year... Browsing the forums I have seen conflicting opinions on whether Tuscany is nice in the wintertime - also, over at Lonely Planet I have a poster pleading with me to not go to Cinque Terre in the winter, saying it is desolate and too cold to enjoy walking around. I've heard similar things about Venice during this time of year.
Thanks again for the comments, people. In addition to the above, can anybody advise me in my decision whether or not to start my trip in Sicily? As my first time in Italy, would it spoil me to go to the craziest most exotic part of it?
I think the Iberia vs Cen Europe debate is waaay to hard to figure out, and maybe I'll just go where the wind takes me when I've finished in Italy. My varied musical interests certainly can take me both ways. Any additional insight there would be very helpful.
Thank you!
Dec 12th, 2010, 12:40 PM
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dcatkinson,
As to weather, there really is no predicting or fine tuning it, given the very short window you plan to be in most of these places.
As for Sicily, the people who travel by "formulas" to Italy are to me missing the point of travel. Of COURSE you won't "spoil" your first time in Italy going to where the Greeks went! It makes a great deal of sense to start there, and there is never a "right" way to approach Italy for the first time. It's not a dog or a kindergarten project. You should fly with your curiosity. And when you are done touring Italy, you can decide for yourself if Sicity is the "craziest most exotic part of it." I don't think it is.
As I think I mentioned, I live near le Cinque Terre. One day last March, a storm blew in that was so fierce, the wind picked up a table, tossed it over a fence, and smashed it to bits. Other days (before the table broke), I ate my lunch in the warm sunshine. Still other days, the steps were so icy (and around here, there are a LOT of steps), walking around outdoors was risking breaking a bone.
The same is true of Tuscany -- and even Sicily and the southern coast. I can find you pictures on the 'net of snow in all those places in February of 2003 and 2009 (I think those were the years). Other days -- in the SAME YEAR -- people were happily bopping about in light jackets.
The real point is to keep your plans as flexible --- which you obviously are already keen to do. By all means plan to go to Tuscany and visit small hilltowns. But know that you may want to change your plans and head to Bologna for the day. Be ready to jump on a train to le Cinque Terre.
As for your "varied musical interests," do they include/exclude flamenco. catalonian folk song, opera? Organ music? French pop? What's happening in Berlin? People can advise you if you candidly post what most you want, and what you suspect would be of merely academic interest to you.
The LENGTH OF ANY DAY according to astronomers is not only irrelevant to your plans, it is usually irrelevant to anybody's travelers plans and misleading information. The length of the day in winter in Oregon is the same as much of the east coast of the US -- and warmer!!! So why don't New Yorkers move? Most will tell you candidly they'd rather be cold and face snow than give up their intermittently sunny winter days for the typically non-stop gloom of rainy Oregon, no matter how many astronomers wave pieces of paper under their nose yelling: "See? It's the 'day' is the same length!" What will matter to most people is whether they ENJOY being in a destination, and that is a complex question based on you, not a chart.
Have a great time. Go with your curiosity and your heart. Make your own mistakes. You won't regret that, ever.
As to weather, there really is no predicting or fine tuning it, given the very short window you plan to be in most of these places.
As for Sicily, the people who travel by "formulas" to Italy are to me missing the point of travel. Of COURSE you won't "spoil" your first time in Italy going to where the Greeks went! It makes a great deal of sense to start there, and there is never a "right" way to approach Italy for the first time. It's not a dog or a kindergarten project. You should fly with your curiosity. And when you are done touring Italy, you can decide for yourself if Sicity is the "craziest most exotic part of it." I don't think it is.
As I think I mentioned, I live near le Cinque Terre. One day last March, a storm blew in that was so fierce, the wind picked up a table, tossed it over a fence, and smashed it to bits. Other days (before the table broke), I ate my lunch in the warm sunshine. Still other days, the steps were so icy (and around here, there are a LOT of steps), walking around outdoors was risking breaking a bone.
The same is true of Tuscany -- and even Sicily and the southern coast. I can find you pictures on the 'net of snow in all those places in February of 2003 and 2009 (I think those were the years). Other days -- in the SAME YEAR -- people were happily bopping about in light jackets.
The real point is to keep your plans as flexible --- which you obviously are already keen to do. By all means plan to go to Tuscany and visit small hilltowns. But know that you may want to change your plans and head to Bologna for the day. Be ready to jump on a train to le Cinque Terre.
As for your "varied musical interests," do they include/exclude flamenco. catalonian folk song, opera? Organ music? French pop? What's happening in Berlin? People can advise you if you candidly post what most you want, and what you suspect would be of merely academic interest to you.
The LENGTH OF ANY DAY according to astronomers is not only irrelevant to your plans, it is usually irrelevant to anybody's travelers plans and misleading information. The length of the day in winter in Oregon is the same as much of the east coast of the US -- and warmer!!! So why don't New Yorkers move? Most will tell you candidly they'd rather be cold and face snow than give up their intermittently sunny winter days for the typically non-stop gloom of rainy Oregon, no matter how many astronomers wave pieces of paper under their nose yelling: "See? It's the 'day' is the same length!" What will matter to most people is whether they ENJOY being in a destination, and that is a complex question based on you, not a chart.
Have a great time. Go with your curiosity and your heart. Make your own mistakes. You won't regret that, ever.
Dec 12th, 2010, 12:46 PM
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>The LENGTH OF ANY DAY according to astronomers is not only irrelevant to your plans, it is usually irrelevant to anybody's travelers plans and misleading information. <
Which begs the question, why did YOU bring it up?
Which begs the question, why did YOU bring it up?
Dec 12th, 2010, 01:35 PM
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stilldontknow,
If I had written "It's darker the further you go north?" -- would you still be having this problem? That isn't an abstract measurement. It's something most people care about when they pick a travel destination. Many people like to see the sun during the day, even when they travel. Perhaps most. That's why I brought it up in advising the OP about an itinerary for winter travel in Europe. I tend to think travel is about the whole experience, not just the "sights."
What matters to most people is not the astronomy chart but how much of the sun a person actually sees during the day. Does that sound irrelevant to you? That is why many people will never move to Oregon -- or Scotland -- or pick it over other destinations in winter. They'd miss seeing the sun.
You say you live in Scotland? Great! You are in a position to offer more intelligence than an astronomy table to a traveler, that takes no account of real weather. I brought up the daylight factor because having lived in London in March, going any further north was a gloomy prospect. So I share my experience for people asking about travel in Europe. That's why I "brought it up." I'm only sorry I didn't use terms like "daylight factor" or "darkness".
HOWEVER, I've also experienced Paris in March. Have you? Can we agree that that one sees the sun more often in March in Paris than one sees it in London (even though the sunrise/sunset clock is pretty much the same.) And that for some people traveling, that would might sway them one way or the other?
Curious travelers surely want to know (if you do): Is Glasgow in March more like Paris or London? Is it a place where the sun frequently breaks through? Do you prefer dark and wet weather to sun? (Some people do you know!)
That would be helpful information in the mix. Some link to an astronomy chart isn't much of a picture of what many travelers will care about when trying to decide whether to head north or south or to a microclimate absent plane tickets already bought or waiting relatives.
If I had written "It's darker the further you go north?" -- would you still be having this problem? That isn't an abstract measurement. It's something most people care about when they pick a travel destination. Many people like to see the sun during the day, even when they travel. Perhaps most. That's why I brought it up in advising the OP about an itinerary for winter travel in Europe. I tend to think travel is about the whole experience, not just the "sights."
What matters to most people is not the astronomy chart but how much of the sun a person actually sees during the day. Does that sound irrelevant to you? That is why many people will never move to Oregon -- or Scotland -- or pick it over other destinations in winter. They'd miss seeing the sun.
You say you live in Scotland? Great! You are in a position to offer more intelligence than an astronomy table to a traveler, that takes no account of real weather. I brought up the daylight factor because having lived in London in March, going any further north was a gloomy prospect. So I share my experience for people asking about travel in Europe. That's why I "brought it up." I'm only sorry I didn't use terms like "daylight factor" or "darkness".
HOWEVER, I've also experienced Paris in March. Have you? Can we agree that that one sees the sun more often in March in Paris than one sees it in London (even though the sunrise/sunset clock is pretty much the same.) And that for some people traveling, that would might sway them one way or the other?
Curious travelers surely want to know (if you do): Is Glasgow in March more like Paris or London? Is it a place where the sun frequently breaks through? Do you prefer dark and wet weather to sun? (Some people do you know!)
That would be helpful information in the mix. Some link to an astronomy chart isn't much of a picture of what many travelers will care about when trying to decide whether to head north or south or to a microclimate absent plane tickets already bought or waiting relatives.
Dec 12th, 2010, 01:53 PM
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Like I said in a previous post Northern Europe in March is unlikely to be a hotspot. Yes I've been to Paris in March. It was cold and wet. Is it always cold and wet in Paris in March? Probably not. Would I be justified using my limited but negative experience of the weather in Paris in March to tell travelers to avoid the place? I would think not, particulary given the significant amount of other diversions on offer. Similarly with Scotland in March.
The OP has already indicated that, coming from Canada, he's not hugely interested in experiencing the great outdoors. Given that preference Glasgow or Edinburgh has a much to offer as the equally inclement Belgium.
The rest of your blather is just that, blather.
The OP has already indicated that, coming from Canada, he's not hugely interested in experiencing the great outdoors. Given that preference Glasgow or Edinburgh has a much to offer as the equally inclement Belgium.
The rest of your blather is just that, blather.
Dec 12th, 2010, 02:27 PM
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Stilldontknow,
And you can't resist insults, which you seem not to notice are their own form of blather, or that repeatedly wanting the same thing explained to you invites what you think is blather.
I doubt many people would agree with you that Glasgow compensates the way that Paris does when it comes to cold dark weather. But only one person is taking this trip, and he is going to Glasgow,. My initial advice to the OP to eliminate Glasgow, Berlin and Sicily wasn't based on the worthiness of the destinations to the OP, as I already explained.
Anyway, thanks once more to Google for providing what the BBC calls the "sunshine duration" for Glasgow.
In March, 11:51 hours of daylight is the norm for Glasgow.
Hours of sunshine in Glasgow in March? 3:11 hours is the norm.
I feel justified in posting once more that people might want to consider hours of sunshine before choosing Glasgow or any travel itinerary taking you that far north in March and, absent relatives or similarly compelling reasons (like very much wanting to see Paris or London on a first trip to Europe), eliminate going that far north in Europe in March.
And you can't resist insults, which you seem not to notice are their own form of blather, or that repeatedly wanting the same thing explained to you invites what you think is blather.
I doubt many people would agree with you that Glasgow compensates the way that Paris does when it comes to cold dark weather. But only one person is taking this trip, and he is going to Glasgow,. My initial advice to the OP to eliminate Glasgow, Berlin and Sicily wasn't based on the worthiness of the destinations to the OP, as I already explained.
Anyway, thanks once more to Google for providing what the BBC calls the "sunshine duration" for Glasgow.
In March, 11:51 hours of daylight is the norm for Glasgow.
Hours of sunshine in Glasgow in March? 3:11 hours is the norm.
I feel justified in posting once more that people might want to consider hours of sunshine before choosing Glasgow or any travel itinerary taking you that far north in March and, absent relatives or similarly compelling reasons (like very much wanting to see Paris or London on a first trip to Europe), eliminate going that far north in Europe in March.
Dec 12th, 2010, 02:39 PM
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I do notice someone who continually strives to evade the point and shift the goal posts when the facts are inconvient. Given that I would take with a large grain of salt the accuracy of anything else you have to offer.
Dec 15th, 2010, 08:31 AM
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Thanks again for the help. Sorry to see the argument that I helped develop - honestly, aren't some things just worth letting go, on both sides? It's like that comic where the guy is being called up to bed, but can't because "somebody is wrong on the internet!"
In any case...
Zeppole - your advice regarding weather in Italy has been extremely helpful, and so I will strive to keep my plans flexible and allow them to be weather-dependent to a certain degree. Overall very positive comments, so thank you! (And everyone else - do not fret, I understand everybody's opinions here are subjective, and I would never choose to go or not go anywhere because someone on a forum told me it was dark.)
Back to the music thing I could never pick between Opera and Flamenco. That's what I meant when I said I have varied tastes. Professionally I play everything from classical to jazz to rock to ambient techno to Brazilian folk to music theatre, and anything you can think of in between.
As well as seeing whatever music is most culturally unique to that area, I would like to check out the more globalized contemporary scene - either jazz or rock/pop, or even both. I assume both Madrid and Prague, for examples, will have ample opportunities to see all of the above, and so I'm not sure if I can go wrong either way here.
I think I will just try and keep all my options open, and start off in Italy and just go wherever I feel like going, being confident in the fact that I'll have a great time wherever, and I'll have to come back and see the rest another time.
Once again thank you for all the help! J
In any case...
Zeppole - your advice regarding weather in Italy has been extremely helpful, and so I will strive to keep my plans flexible and allow them to be weather-dependent to a certain degree. Overall very positive comments, so thank you! (And everyone else - do not fret, I understand everybody's opinions here are subjective, and I would never choose to go or not go anywhere because someone on a forum told me it was dark.)
Back to the music thing I could never pick between Opera and Flamenco. That's what I meant when I said I have varied tastes. Professionally I play everything from classical to jazz to rock to ambient techno to Brazilian folk to music theatre, and anything you can think of in between.
As well as seeing whatever music is most culturally unique to that area, I would like to check out the more globalized contemporary scene - either jazz or rock/pop, or even both. I assume both Madrid and Prague, for examples, will have ample opportunities to see all of the above, and so I'm not sure if I can go wrong either way here.
I think I will just try and keep all my options open, and start off in Italy and just go wherever I feel like going, being confident in the fact that I'll have a great time wherever, and I'll have to come back and see the rest another time.
Once again thank you for all the help! J
Dec 15th, 2010, 09:34 AM
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dcatkinson...You are doing a trip that I have always dreamed of. The longest that I have been able to stay in Europe is 3 weeks at one time!n I am planning to go and stay at least for a month. I will split my time between France and Italy...unless I change my mind and take two months! Let us all know how your trip turns out!
