101 places Rick Steves doesn't know
Dec 1st, 2010, 08:04 AM
#61
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i>Travgourmet:
I currently live in San Francisco and honestly I would compare Hamburg to Boston, never to Houston. Hamburg has many river/lake waterfront areas plus a network of canals and bridges, I fail to see any similarity to Houston.</i>
The original sales job for Hamburg consisted of the following:
<i>Hamburg - a bustling city with great shopping, dining and a fascinating harbor district; the harbor tour is not to be missed!</i>
Well, Houston is a bustling city (it's economy is roughly 4x the size of Hamburg) with some solid museums; resident companies in opera, ballet, symphony, and theater; professional sports teams in soccer, football, baseball, and basketball; and shopping and dining that, IMO, easily outclass that on offer in Hamburg. It also offers ethnic diversity that puts Hamburg (really, most European cities) to shame. To the extent that people actually wanted to see a real, working port, the Port of Houston sees more tonnage than Hamburg. Beaches and lakes are readily found in the Houston area, too.
Hamburg is a nice city. As a destination for those that travel 5k miles, I genuinely don't see it registering in the Top 25 cities in Europe, or the Top 50 destinations. Pretty much everything that Hamburg does well, others do better.
I currently live in San Francisco and honestly I would compare Hamburg to Boston, never to Houston. Hamburg has many river/lake waterfront areas plus a network of canals and bridges, I fail to see any similarity to Houston.</i>
The original sales job for Hamburg consisted of the following:
<i>Hamburg - a bustling city with great shopping, dining and a fascinating harbor district; the harbor tour is not to be missed!</i>
Well, Houston is a bustling city (it's economy is roughly 4x the size of Hamburg) with some solid museums; resident companies in opera, ballet, symphony, and theater; professional sports teams in soccer, football, baseball, and basketball; and shopping and dining that, IMO, easily outclass that on offer in Hamburg. It also offers ethnic diversity that puts Hamburg (really, most European cities) to shame. To the extent that people actually wanted to see a real, working port, the Port of Houston sees more tonnage than Hamburg. Beaches and lakes are readily found in the Houston area, too.
Hamburg is a nice city. As a destination for those that travel 5k miles, I genuinely don't see it registering in the Top 25 cities in Europe, or the Top 50 destinations. Pretty much everything that Hamburg does well, others do better.
Dec 1st, 2010, 01:01 PM
#65
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
travelgourmet, we aren't trying to convince YOU to visit Hamburg, and I certainly wasn't trying to "sell" the city with my brief description. The whole point of this thread was to list worthwhile places to visit in Germany that were not included in the Rick Steves book, not to debate whether each city deserves mention on someone's Top 25 list.
I'm sure my Top 25 would look very different from yours. I don't necessarily visit cities - especially European cities - to experience opera, ballet, symphony, theater or professional sports. We didn't visit Hamburg for any of these features - in fact we didn't really visit it for the shopping or dining either, although we do love to eat. Rather, we visited for some of the more intangible characteristics that hsv and DAX describe, along with its history and diverse Hafen district.
(It might surprise you that I spent 2.5 years in Germany and never made it to Berlin. That doesn't mean I don't want to go there someday, it just wasn't a priority for us.) I'm very glad I went to Hamburg, and would definitely return to that part of Germany in the future.
I'm sure my Top 25 would look very different from yours. I don't necessarily visit cities - especially European cities - to experience opera, ballet, symphony, theater or professional sports. We didn't visit Hamburg for any of these features - in fact we didn't really visit it for the shopping or dining either, although we do love to eat. Rather, we visited for some of the more intangible characteristics that hsv and DAX describe, along with its history and diverse Hafen district.
(It might surprise you that I spent 2.5 years in Germany and never made it to Berlin. That doesn't mean I don't want to go there someday, it just wasn't a priority for us.) I'm very glad I went to Hamburg, and would definitely return to that part of Germany in the future.
Dec 1st, 2010, 02:03 PM
#66
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread made me laugh--it's supposed to be the anti-guidebook thread, but it shows just how helpful guidebooks are. No one planning their first trip to Germany could be expected to wade through all these posts and make an informed decision about where to spend their limited vacation time. Every guidebook series (perhaps the Michelin Green Guides excepted) makes choices about what to include, or not, based on what they think their readers might like--by necessity that can't include everything, or anywhere near it.
A better title to this thread, and one that might be genuinely helpful to seasoned Germany travelers looking for new, off the beaten path destinations, would be something that reflects that sentiment.
A better title to this thread, and one that might be genuinely helpful to seasoned Germany travelers looking for new, off the beaten path destinations, would be something that reflects that sentiment.
Dec 1st, 2010, 06:30 PM
#67
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a proverb in Northern Germany that claims "one man's owl is the other man's nightingale". So much for whether Hamburg is a worthwhile destination.
I hate mis-stated facts, though: By all means Houston does not handle more containers in its port than Hamburg.
(e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ontainer_ports)
Furthermore, I don't think anyone here implied that Hamburg was supposed to lead the attractiveness scale for German destinations (particularly for US travelers). In fact, in my earlier post I pointed out that Berlin certainly does have more touristic relevance (naturally given the very different histories of the 2 cities).
As the idea of this thread was to highlight other German destinations that get less coverage (and as it can hardly be argued that Berlin goes unnoticed, which, of course is completely justified), a few posters dared to mention that there may be another destination within a 90 min. train ride that could be worth one or two days in a German travel itinerary (and that could ultimately prove more rewarding than other towns frequently on German itineraries).
It should by now have caught everyone's attention that Houston is also a great place. It is a bit unfortunate that it's not in Germany and therefore of little relevance to this thread.
I hate mis-stated facts, though: By all means Houston does not handle more containers in its port than Hamburg.
(e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ontainer_ports)
Furthermore, I don't think anyone here implied that Hamburg was supposed to lead the attractiveness scale for German destinations (particularly for US travelers). In fact, in my earlier post I pointed out that Berlin certainly does have more touristic relevance (naturally given the very different histories of the 2 cities).
As the idea of this thread was to highlight other German destinations that get less coverage (and as it can hardly be argued that Berlin goes unnoticed, which, of course is completely justified), a few posters dared to mention that there may be another destination within a 90 min. train ride that could be worth one or two days in a German travel itinerary (and that could ultimately prove more rewarding than other towns frequently on German itineraries).
It should by now have caught everyone's attention that Houston is also a great place. It is a bit unfortunate that it's not in Germany and therefore of little relevance to this thread.
Dec 1st, 2010, 07:28 PM
#68
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will continue to look for small towns that are not well known to the mainstream American tourist.
I've always enjoyed my trips to Germany and when we find something we like, I think it's just human nature to want to "share" that knowledge with other like minded travelers.
That there are some on Fodor's who don't care about my travel preferences is fine. I don't knock the recommendations of others and I appreciate the same courtesy (altho I don't always get it).
We all travel for different reasons. I think the fact that we get out there and explore other countries and other cultures is reason to celebrate, whether we all travel the same paths or not.
I've always enjoyed my trips to Germany and when we find something we like, I think it's just human nature to want to "share" that knowledge with other like minded travelers.
That there are some on Fodor's who don't care about my travel preferences is fine. I don't knock the recommendations of others and I appreciate the same courtesy (altho I don't always get it).
We all travel for different reasons. I think the fact that we get out there and explore other countries and other cultures is reason to celebrate, whether we all travel the same paths or not.
Dec 1st, 2010, 09:35 PM
#69
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i>I hate mis-stated facts, though: By all means Houston does not handle more containers in its port than Hamburg.</i>
I said tonnage. You don't think all sea freight goes in a container, do you?
<I>It should by now have caught everyone's attention that Houston is also a great place.</I>
Who said that? My point was that one can easily make Houston sound attractive, if you take it out of a comparative context. The point, I think, for a guidebook is to help narrow the choices. Every town has defenders and advocates, but they can't all be visited, and they can't all be covered. It is the job of the guidebook writer to make determinations, such as Munich is worth more time than Hamburg, or that New York is more worthwhile than Houston. I'd no more object to a USA guidebook that excludes Houston than a Germany guidebook that excludes Hamburg.
I said tonnage. You don't think all sea freight goes in a container, do you?
<I>It should by now have caught everyone's attention that Houston is also a great place.</I>
Who said that? My point was that one can easily make Houston sound attractive, if you take it out of a comparative context. The point, I think, for a guidebook is to help narrow the choices. Every town has defenders and advocates, but they can't all be visited, and they can't all be covered. It is the job of the guidebook writer to make determinations, such as Munich is worth more time than Hamburg, or that New York is more worthwhile than Houston. I'd no more object to a USA guidebook that excludes Houston than a Germany guidebook that excludes Hamburg.
Dec 2nd, 2010, 12:18 AM
#71
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"<i>I said tonnage. You don't think all sea freight goes in a container, do you?</i>"
Sorry, my bad regarding the tonnage. I do apologize and assure you that I am familiar also with other forms of sea transport. I am sure that makes all the difference for tourists.
"<i>Who said that [Houston was also a great place]?</i>"
Your "selling" pitch (I am referring to your earlier wording as you seem to be under the impression that the purpose of this board is to "sell" destinations, which, if it constituted a commercial interest, would breach the board's rules BTW) for Houston contained the terms "bustling" (generally a vibrant atmosphere would make a destination attractive, I would think), "museums", "opera", "ballet", "symphony" and "theater" (so a decent cultural scene, which would at least help pass the time for a tourist, if not constitute a reason for going there), "football, baseball and basketball" (great sports scene to complement the cultural scene, unfortunately a bit heavy on marginal US sports from a European point of view, but nevertheless positive), and super "shopping and dining" (perfect to round off a day, please bon-vivant travelers).
Overall your Houston description was of great interest for me - and I cannot wait to go there.
Maybe I'll combine it with my next trip to Berlin.
Sorry, my bad regarding the tonnage. I do apologize and assure you that I am familiar also with other forms of sea transport. I am sure that makes all the difference for tourists.
"<i>Who said that [Houston was also a great place]?</i>"
Your "selling" pitch (I am referring to your earlier wording as you seem to be under the impression that the purpose of this board is to "sell" destinations, which, if it constituted a commercial interest, would breach the board's rules BTW) for Houston contained the terms "bustling" (generally a vibrant atmosphere would make a destination attractive, I would think), "museums", "opera", "ballet", "symphony" and "theater" (so a decent cultural scene, which would at least help pass the time for a tourist, if not constitute a reason for going there), "football, baseball and basketball" (great sports scene to complement the cultural scene, unfortunately a bit heavy on marginal US sports from a European point of view, but nevertheless positive), and super "shopping and dining" (perfect to round off a day, please bon-vivant travelers).
Overall your Houston description was of great interest for me - and I cannot wait to go there.
Maybe I'll combine it with my next trip to Berlin.
Dec 2nd, 2010, 01:42 AM
#72
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that travelgourmet misses the point that no one is trying to force Aunt Edna from Kansas City to fly 5K or 8K miles to spend 2 weeks in Hamburg.
That original "sales pitch" that gave you so much arousal did NOT say that you should travel around the globe to do a harbor tour in Hamburg, but IF IF IF you happen to be in Hamburg or in the vicinity, you should do a harbor tour.
IMO, a totally different intention unless you wish to interpret a pan-Germanic conspiracy for the economic advancement of Hamburg into a harmless recommendation.
But when Aunt Edna already decided to go to Germany to visit the Rhine and Berlin, she could as well add 2 days in Hamburg -- in the totally random case that auntie likes port cities, harbor cruises, museums, incl. one on immigration especially to North America, and lots of musicals.
She will not "travel 5K miles" to vacation in Hamburg, but barely 200 miles and 90 minutes.
If Aunt Edna has no interest in the above and likes oompah combos, baroque churches, Schweinebraten and painted houses better, she shall spend her money in Upper Bavaria. Or even better: in Austria.
Peace.
That original "sales pitch" that gave you so much arousal did NOT say that you should travel around the globe to do a harbor tour in Hamburg, but IF IF IF you happen to be in Hamburg or in the vicinity, you should do a harbor tour.
IMO, a totally different intention unless you wish to interpret a pan-Germanic conspiracy for the economic advancement of Hamburg into a harmless recommendation.
But when Aunt Edna already decided to go to Germany to visit the Rhine and Berlin, she could as well add 2 days in Hamburg -- in the totally random case that auntie likes port cities, harbor cruises, museums, incl. one on immigration especially to North America, and lots of musicals.
She will not "travel 5K miles" to vacation in Hamburg, but barely 200 miles and 90 minutes.
If Aunt Edna has no interest in the above and likes oompah combos, baroque churches, Schweinebraten and painted houses better, she shall spend her money in Upper Bavaria. Or even better: in Austria.
Peace.
Dec 2nd, 2010, 07:20 AM
#75
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 15,770
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
o.k. I am sold.
When I travel to Berlin for the third time ( not interested
in Bavaria or 1001 small towns anywhere) and have 2 days extra, I'll try to visit Hamburg.
Huston was only used as an example of a destination not well known or recommended to overseas visitors. Most posters will never know how it compares to Hamburg. Or care.
When I travel to Berlin for the third time ( not interested
in Bavaria or 1001 small towns anywhere) and have 2 days extra, I'll try to visit Hamburg.
Huston was only used as an example of a destination not well known or recommended to overseas visitors. Most posters will never know how it compares to Hamburg. Or care.
Dec 2nd, 2010, 10:49 AM
#76
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pertaining to Hamberg and some other nearby destinations, I hit some of these during a 10 day trip to Germany in Sept 2006. I had a flight into Berlin and out of Hamberg and no set plans between the 2 although I knew where I wanted to go.
I spent 4 days in Berlin (had already spent 10 days there on another trip), 1 day in Hannover (didn't overnight - left Berlin early in the morning, spent the day in Hannover and continued to Bremen), 2 days in Bremen, 1 in Bremerhaven, 2 days in Hamberg.
Loved all of them! While I didn't use RS guides at that time, looking at the one in front of me, I can see that Berlin is the only place I visited that he covers.
Note if you are American of German heritage, your ancestors likely departed from either Bremerhaven (the German emigration museum is there) or Hamberg.
While I felt that 1-2 days each was sufficient for Bremen, Bremerhaven and Hannover, it was not enough for Hamberg. 3 recommendations for Hamberg: 1) great hotel finding service at the train station (stayed in the Kempinski for 70 euros!), 2) cool to take a boat tour of the working port and 3) the Hamberg Ballet is among the best in the world and, while sold out, I showed up and got a returned ticket!
From this thread, one can see that some people like to tour the main sites while others like to go off the beaten path. Personally I like to do BOTH which is why I'm on the road so much!
Have not yet made it to Houston......
I spent 4 days in Berlin (had already spent 10 days there on another trip), 1 day in Hannover (didn't overnight - left Berlin early in the morning, spent the day in Hannover and continued to Bremen), 2 days in Bremen, 1 in Bremerhaven, 2 days in Hamberg.
Loved all of them! While I didn't use RS guides at that time, looking at the one in front of me, I can see that Berlin is the only place I visited that he covers.
Note if you are American of German heritage, your ancestors likely departed from either Bremerhaven (the German emigration museum is there) or Hamberg.
While I felt that 1-2 days each was sufficient for Bremen, Bremerhaven and Hannover, it was not enough for Hamberg. 3 recommendations for Hamberg: 1) great hotel finding service at the train station (stayed in the Kempinski for 70 euros!), 2) cool to take a boat tour of the working port and 3) the Hamberg Ballet is among the best in the world and, while sold out, I showed up and got a returned ticket!
From this thread, one can see that some people like to tour the main sites while others like to go off the beaten path. Personally I like to do BOTH which is why I'm on the road so much!
Have not yet made it to Houston......
Dec 2nd, 2010, 11:28 AM
#77
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cowboy1968, you have exposed me. I am actually a covert U.S.-based operative for the Pan-Germanic Conspiracy for the Economic Advancement of Hamburg (a.k.a. PGCEAH).
Little did I know that my mention of Hamburg would generate more responses than any other comment I have ever made on this board.
Meanwhile, poor Baden-Wuerttemberg, which I spent more time on in my original post and is closest to my heart, has been almost completely ignored. Perhaps I should change jobs.
Little did I know that my mention of Hamburg would generate more responses than any other comment I have ever made on this board.
Meanwhile, poor Baden-Wuerttemberg, which I spent more time on in my original post and is closest to my heart, has been almost completely ignored. Perhaps I should change jobs.
Dec 2nd, 2010, 12:19 PM
#78
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hausfrau
Baden-Württember is rightfully ignored since it is not in Germany. The local tribes do not speak German. Some will argue that they speak any language at all.
There is no Hofbräuhaus and Neuschwanstein. No one wears Dirndls and Lederhosen - except on its Eastern border to Germany (AKA Bavaria).
Instead you have the Kehrwoche, Maultaschen, and lots of Lidls and Aldis along the Rhine for the French shoppers.
Baden-Württemberg is so boring that the local tribes had to invent Mercedes and Porsche to get vehicles powerful enough to leave the state as fast as possible.
The Black Forest got accidentely dislocated from Germany to Baden-Württemberg due to some vicious tectonic movements (probably caused by the French as an act of revenge) and can therefore be ignored.
The only relevant part of B-W is in its extreme North, Heidelberg. So technically it's part of Northwestern Germany which had been built around Frankfurt airport after 1945 for the convinience of the overseas traveller and includes the Rhine Valley and a couple of pre-fabricated castles.
Actually, it was planned to build Heidelberg in Germany where nowadays Frankfurt is located. But some French architects deliberately mixed up the building plans.
The wise traveller avoids Baden-Württemberg.
Baden-Württember is rightfully ignored since it is not in Germany. The local tribes do not speak German. Some will argue that they speak any language at all.
There is no Hofbräuhaus and Neuschwanstein. No one wears Dirndls and Lederhosen - except on its Eastern border to Germany (AKA Bavaria).
Instead you have the Kehrwoche, Maultaschen, and lots of Lidls and Aldis along the Rhine for the French shoppers.
Baden-Württemberg is so boring that the local tribes had to invent Mercedes and Porsche to get vehicles powerful enough to leave the state as fast as possible.
The Black Forest got accidentely dislocated from Germany to Baden-Württemberg due to some vicious tectonic movements (probably caused by the French as an act of revenge) and can therefore be ignored.
The only relevant part of B-W is in its extreme North, Heidelberg. So technically it's part of Northwestern Germany which had been built around Frankfurt airport after 1945 for the convinience of the overseas traveller and includes the Rhine Valley and a couple of pre-fabricated castles.
Actually, it was planned to build Heidelberg in Germany where nowadays Frankfurt is located. But some French architects deliberately mixed up the building plans.
The wise traveller avoids Baden-Württemberg.
Dec 2nd, 2010, 01:23 PM
#79
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,833
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK then off we go to Schduudgard now!
Is it bustling like Houston? And how many containers...
Fair warning to everyone with hausfrau's recommendations, the last time she told me where to find great food I ended up in a dark prostitute alley! LOL.
Is it bustling like Houston? And how many containers...
Fair warning to everyone with hausfrau's recommendations, the last time she told me where to find great food I ended up in a dark prostitute alley! LOL.
