I've lived in London on two occasions for more than five years, and other than Bath and the surrounding area, have never seen much of the rest of England. I'm determined to see some of it before we move back to the US, so I booked a rental car for a week in August. The kids are 9 and 7 and are good travellers who are interested in historical stuff, but probably would not be up for long hikes or too many museums or country homes (castles are good, though). So here's what I had in mind; is this just too ambitious in one week, and are we likely to spend most of the time jammed up in traffic on tiny country roads?

-- London to Cambridge, a few hours there, then on to Norwich to visit an old USAAF base where a relative was stationed.

-- Norwich to York -- anything to see on the way?

-- Maybe two days in York; I've heard it is very interesting. Day trip to Hadrian's Wall and/or Yorkshire moors, Bronte village?

-- York to Lake District -- is it worth driving through, or only for hiking? Doubt we have the time/inclination/gear for long hikes in the rain.

-- Lake District to Liverpool -- Beatles pilgrimage for one day. Is Chester worth seeing?

-- Cotswolds or Stratford/Oxford -- The wife and kids love Shakespeare, but I've heard enough nightmares about the tourist trap that is Stratford to want to avoid it altogether. Can we get near the place in August? Will I spend the entire day looking for parking? Other places in the area, like Chpping Camden, Warwick Castle (although that can be done as a day trip from London), Oxford?

Also, will I need to outline a firm itinerary and book lodging for every night ahead of time, or can we be more flexible and find the lodging as we go? Any suggestions on the must-see aread of the North and Northwest would be appreciated. Thanks.

I suspect I will be the first of many. Your itinerary, in my opinion, is very ambitious. It is a shame that you saw so little of the country when you were based here, but you will find that driving times over relatively short distances are much longer than you might think. Try a site like Google Maps to get an idea. Don't be taken in by the apparent small size of England.

Many of your propsed destinations need more than a few hours, Cambridge for example. Driving in East Anglia (Norwich) can be slow. Hadrian's Wall is a long way from York. All your destinations are good suggestions in themselves, but I think you need to take a knife to your plans.

Soon you will be inundated with advice. I'm just the first. I offer my travelling mantra: less is more.

Something I forgot: lots of British families will be holidaying in the UK this year rather than abroad due to economics/exchange rates, etc. August is the peak holiday month. You might want to organise accommodation sooner rather than later.

Quite right, this is a lot to see in a week and misses out a lot of stuff well worth seeing. You obviously can't do it all and the day trip from London stuff, like Oxford, Warwick etc. is how I'd do it.

If your trip to the USAAF base is a must, then I'd go there first. This will take you the best part of a day to get to and see and Norwich is a long way from anywhere. So you need to stay in Norwich for this first night.

I wouldn't go as far North as you were planning with a restricted amount of time available, so the M62ish would be my Northern limit. From Norwich, think about Lincoln, Nottingham as being as far as I'd want to drive with two sub 10 year olds. From there, Manchester is a great place to stay, full of history back to Roman times and you do Liverpool as an easy day trip(less than an hour) from there. Manchester has excellent Motorway connections to most places.

The Lake District is another good day out from Manchester, taking a couple of hours. You can give yourself 2 to 3 nights here as a base.

Then head South via Stratford and back into London. It's still a lot to do and some driving, but you'll see a lot more of some of the Cities than a lot of US visitors don't really get to see, because of the Londoncentric fixation.

We currently live in England and agree that you have way too much for a week. Definitely leave out the Lake District if you aren't planning to hike. We've spent two family vacations there - each a week long - and could do more. It is a beautiful place, but if you aren't planning to hike then I don't think it is worth the distance and time to get there and drive through.

If your main purpose for Liverpool is a Beatles pilgrimage then I agree you can hit that in a day. You'll have seen the main things *you* want to see in that time. The same goes for Stratford. You list 'the Cotswolds', but if you really are just wanting a Shakespeare day in Stratford then you can do that as well and accomplish what you want.

Otherwise I would focus on York, the Yorkshire Dales, and other surrounding areas.

Decide and book soon!!! August is crazy, especially the bank holiday weekend at the end of the month.

Am I missing simething here?

Your message implies you live in LOndon. If not, disregard most of what follows:

I honestly don't understand this. Zapping around England is doable: but why?

Many of the things you're proposing can easily be done on say trips from London by train. Oxford and Cambrisge, for example, have terrific train and bus connections to central London, but are really, really awful for outsiders to drive into - and seriously time wasting to drive to a P+R, then bus into.

In your shoes, however pressing that client's deadline might be for the project you're working on 168 hours a week (and, bluntly, however much people may posture about being busy, busy, busy, they aren't), I'd start by listing the places I can do useful things in on a daytrip during weekends.

That includes Stratford. If you believe the crap about "nightmares", you're a fool. The RSC is one of the world's finest theatre companies, they they specialise in te works of Western Europe's finest playwrights, and they do most of their work in Stratford. If you want to see them perform, it's a piece of piss to get a train to a matinee and be back home by mid evening. The crowds around Stratford are a great deal thinner than they are in London, and it's plain silly to avoid the place (escpecially in you live in London) because of some stupid urban myth abouit "tourist trap".

If you really mean your family wants to see it and you don't, then why don't they just get on the train themselves, leaving you to write the presentation while they're away?

York isn't that easy to see on a day trip. But London-York trains are the fastest intercity trains in the English speaking world (admittedly, there's not much competition), and you CAN see a lot in a day. You can see practically everything in a Sat/Sun weekend - especially by train.

You need to invest in a family Railcard: £24 means most train will cost you and Mrs C-B next to nothing and cost your kids something derisory

I would agree with flanneruk as someone who lives in London. Re Norfolk ditto very slow roads, official 50 mph in many places. Where is the old air base? would find out if there is much to see. However if it is near Mildenhall then that is a pleasant place for a stop.

Lake District: I wouldn't bother if you don't have time or inclination to hike.

Stratford: It's a great thing that your kids are already interested in Shakespeare! Even better, the RSC this summer is doing a few special kid-aimed performances in Stratford of <i>The Comedy of Errors</i>, which is Shx's most slapstick comedy.
http://www.rsc.org.uk/whatson/7301.aspx

Your kids are also young enough not to be bothered, I suspect, by the touristy / kitschy aspects of Stratford, and to enjoy Anne Hathaway's cottage.

One suggestion if you do go to Stratford: I would call the RSC Box Office rather than book online, so that you can ask explicitly about viewing angles for kids. The RSC is currently performing in a temporary theatre space called The Courtyard, a short walk from its normal home, which has been pretty much torn down as part of a major, major renovation project. The Courtyard is crammed into a small space. Last year I sat in the first level balcony, in the first row -- normally very good seats -- but because the balconies come almost to the edge of the (thrust) stage below, the only way to see what was on stage was to lean forward for the entire play. I think very short people or kids would not have been able to see much of anything. For them, it would *definitely* be better to have seats in the "Stalls" seats on the floor level.

By the way, in Stratford, a solution to the parking problem is to book a hotel with a car park. We enjoyed the Legacy Falcon, which is maybe a five-minute walk from the RSC, right on a great street for browsing and dining, and has parking (free, as I recall).

Take a look at http://www.castlexplorer.co.uk/
My son LOVES castles and that's our go to website. Most weekends we pick part of the country we want to explore and then find the nearby castles.

I'd also recommend a GPS unit. I won't comment on your itinerary but if you are trying to see a little bit of everything you don't want to waste much time being lost! We have found getting lost to be some of our best moments, but understand that there isn't always time.

Have fun!

Thanks, everybody. Looks like it's best to cut the Lake District and focus on the rest.

For flanneruk, it's not the "client presentations" that are the problem -- it's the 2-3 weeks per month that I spend flying around the globe for work. So a concentrated week of holiday is much easier than planning weekend travel, when I'm often arriving from another long-haul flight from Australia or Japan and spend the weekend trying to recover. Frankly, the idea of holiday travel doesn't appeal to me much at all, but we're trying to see what we can while we're here.

All I know about Manchester is what I learned listening to depressing Smiths songs ("Oh Manchester, so much to answer for..."). Is there anything to do there?

I've been to the airbase near Norwich, and there's not much there besides pretty countryside. However, there is a nice small USAAF museum in Norwich and I thought it would be good for the kids to see some of their family history, since it's not that far from London.

Happy to leave Stratford and Oxford for day trips from London for my wife to organize with the kids while I'm away -- I visited Oxford while overseas at university, and don't feel the need to see it again.

And I am admittedly Londoncentric -- I recall driving to Stonehenge years ago and thinking, "cool, but too bad about the freeway running through the middle of it." Wells Cathedral and Tintern Abbey impressed me, but the rest of it was not as interesting to me as wandering around some corner of London with no fixed itinerary, which is what I spend most of my free time doing.

Thanks again for the tips, and if anyone has more detailed ideas on York (sounds like it might be a good idea to base ourselves there for 2-3 days) or day trips from there, it would be appreciated. From there we can blast straight to Liverpool and through the Cotswolds back home.

I really enjoyed Chester and would recommend it.

Stellarossa

ClarkB

Take no notice of Morrissey and his depression! Manchester has lots to offer...great hotels and restaurants, sport, lots of history as the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution,the computer, nuclear reserach-Marie Curie etc. wonderful Victorian buildings, Art and Science galleries. The City had great links with the US during the Cotton Era , hence Lincoln Square complete with statue of Mr Lincoln.

Then there's the Imperial War Museum, Lowry Gallery and Centre out at Salford Quays. Liverpool has its memories of the Beatles, who got out of the place as soon as they had enough cash to travel, and.....The Beatles....and

Manchester has great shopping, open spaces in the city centre, easy to get around etc. etc.

Try this link for walks around the City:

http://www.visitmanchester.com/docum...geguideweb.pdf

Try this for Manchester info:

http://www.visitmanchester.com/

• I'm am flat surprised that living in the UK you think this plan is even remotely doable

• "<i>cool, but too bad about the freeway running through the middle of it.</i>" _ Uh - no freeway (or motorway for that matter)

• August is the very WORST time to visit places like the Lake District, or Stratford. Unless you booked places weeks ago, you'll be hard pressed to find family accommodations in the Lakes.

• I'd sit down w/ your wife and work out 6 or 8 destinations easily done by train as either day trips or 1-2 nighters and have her take the kids. (I think it is a crime your children haven't been able to enjoy the hundreds of things they could have seen/done in the last few years. )

She could easily take them to York, Stratford, Oxford and/or Cambridge, Dover -- now THAT is a castle, Edinburgh, Cardiff, and lots of other places. Since you are away so much why the heck doesn't she get off the pot and take advantage of the opportunities?

ditto what janisj and the rest said.

anything you can do by way of day or weekend -trips from london, do that way.

for your week, pick ONE place, rent a house, and HAVE A HOLIDAY. something that will give your kids more memories than the inside of a car, and make them, and you want to come back someday, to climb those hills in the Lake district. if you want castles, pick somewhere like Wales. if you want beach, go to Devon or, [plug coming,] Cornwall. book it now. HAVE FUN.

regards, ann

what annhig said. Do a british family holiday -- not a mad dash Colonial's idea of driving around the whole of the country and seeing a little between loooong stints in the car.

Rent a cottage for a week in a village in the country (but for August you'll want to get moving ASAP)

For a family I'd recommend western Devon/eastern Cornwall as a base to see lots of Devon/Cornwall/Dorset/etc. - or- North Yorkshire for the moors/dales/York/Whitby/etc. - or - North Wales for castles/castles/castles/beaches/mountains.

Ah, 'tis a wide gulf that separates us from our English cousins... we don't like soccer, we expect ice in our drinks, and we don't do British vacations, burning ourselves crimson by the same pool in Marbella for two weeks!

Just kidding. Points taken about slimming the itinerary. But we're not exactly couch potatoes -- my wife has taken the kids on a number of short jaunts around the Home Counties -- Windsor Castle, Brighton on what turned out to be Gay Pride weekend (there's an eye-opener even for cosmopolitan kids like mine!), Dover Castle, and my daughter's school field trip to Devon. So they haven't exactly been locked up in a musty flat in London the past two years.

And the other reason we haven't been all around the UK is that we have taken advantage of all those wonderful British school breaks to visit Amsterdam, Bruges, Brussels, Germany, Paris, Greece, Provence and South Africa in under two years. So I would say they are getting quite a good view of the world, and I wouldn't trade that for a visit to Milton Keynes, but hey, that's just me.

Finally, I'm a Californian. A car is to us what a pint of bitter is to a Brit -- a birthright. The top down and the Beach Boys (or even the Smiths) blasting away. A car is not a prison... it's freedom. So a getting lost on a country road is rather appealing to me -- beats the heck out of 14 hours on a British Airways 747!

Thanks for the tips!

ClarkB: I am also a Californian. Don't give me that car culture bit. I raced Formula Fords and have owned many a rag top and driven up and down hwy 1 more times than I can count (and also I-5 - blecch). By renting a cottage I did NOT mean sitting in a village for 7 days like a lump.

You will have lots of chances to get lost on country lanes. But your first plan wouldn't let you do that because you would not have time for any country lanes -- it would have to be nasty motorway driving most of the way to accomplish that trek.

My goodness - Milton Keynes (!)- even the folks who live in Milton Keynes don't like going there. What a silly suggestion. Did you see one suggestion to visit MK - nope, not a one.

Honestly - if you want to do a road trip - fine, but you and your kids won't see much except for the motorways and dual carriageways. You could base in an area and see everythign w/i 75-100 miles and come back to the same cottage/village each night.

Plus finding 5 or 6 different places to stay w/ family rooms available and who will also take one-night bookings in August, at this late date will take some doing.

When you go to York - and you must- don't forget to add Eden Camp to your list. Your children will love it. Google it for more information. Also, a trip to Scarborough and its beaches would be easily done from there if the weather is reasonable. If you are really lucky, York races will be on too.

Wonderful idea from almcd, a day at the races. It doesn't have to be a full day nor even in York.

York has one of the best railway museums and it is right at the station so could be a first stop.

I suggest a visit to Portsmouth. The train from London takes about 90 minutes and terminates at the dockyard and the Royal Naval Museum. In the dockyard are Mary Rose (1545), HMS Victory (Trafalgar/Nelson) and HMS Warrior (1860, Britain's first ironclad warship). If you have time there are other sights to see and, depending on your itinerary, there is another RR station that may be more convenient for the trip back to London.