ejcrowe

"Native" is truly a pejorative and not just a nod towards PC. To put it in a more familiar perspective, it's not as offensive as calling someone of African descent a "nigger", but maybe more like "colored." Where "colored" used to be a relative term of respect in days gone by, "native" might well have been, too. Now, however, it is both insulting and insensitive. I daresay that most folks on this board wouldn't dream of referring to someone as "colored", so why would they persist in using the term "native" after becoming aware of its implications?

brenandg

Good interpretation. Well said.

mm

Hi curiousx. I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. Busted for what?

In a previous post wasn't I the first person to say that the term 'local' would have been better than 'native'? I sure think so.

Now, ejcrowe did state quite clearly why he/she believes 'native' in this context is offensive. Made sense to me but I'm going to send mail to a friend who is native to Jamaica and ask his opinion just to be sure.

Is there anyone of Native American decent out there who could offer perspective?

mm_who_is_proud_to_say_he's_a_New_Hampshire_NATIVE .

abbylou

Quick question. How do you know Beanie is a she?

mm

abbylou

From beanie's original post:
**************************
Worst of all though was the CONSTANT HARASSMENT on the hotel beach not only by people selling things but also by guys who were simply trolling. They were rude, vulgar and hard to get rid of. I was told to 'f off' and to 'get an f'ing life' when I told them to leave us alone. Any single woman who was reasonably attractive was fair game. The hotel manager said many girls go off with them so they've come to expect you to say yes. Hotel security just stood there looking at these guys for the longest time before finally running them off but they were back again the next day.

curiousx

MM - Your exact words in your first post were "The comment about 'natives' beings somehow offensive is too funny. Maybe the word 'locals' would better suite Faith but there is nothing wrong with calling someone a native."

And in your next post, you said "If some people were offended by the 'native' comment I'd say that's the result of their own interpretation of the term and not the term itself."

So you were busted in my post for failing to recognize that using the word "native" in the Caribbean context and as used by some on this thread is impolite and insensitive and disrespectful for all the reasons I and others explained.

OTOH, the way ejcrowe has explained things subsequently seems to have made sense to you so, hey, two thumbs up ! And good on you !

BTW, the 'Native Americans' I know, are now preferring to call themselves 'First Peoples' or 'First Nations'. Everything evolves, right ?

And there's a world of difference between you choosing to call yourself 'a native of New Hampshire' and a foreigner calling Bajans 'natives', especially when he or she has been made aware they don't like the term.

Finally, my life partner is 'of colour' and from the Caribbean. I don't need to send an email to Jamaica to find out how at least one "native" feels.

Carib_Ian

Diana: With all due respect you can't judge an island after one day's visit. Stay a week on the southern coast and maybe you would have a totally different impression. I have also been to many other islands so I think I have a pretty reasonable standard to judge Barbados by and it was a big disappointment.

faithie

That the O.P. used the word " native " in a certain way was just ONE of the things in that post . Basically what I took from that phrase was that she was comfortable on St.Barts because she only had to deal with French staff etc. And she did not have to bother or deal with the people who were actually from there . So in the context of that sentence it was a derogatory comment , one of a few .

KXR

First of all Native is not offensive to us born in the caribbean. Why should it be? You all are hilarious. Secondly, St. Barths is the only caribbean island where the Natives are Caucasians (French & Swedish). Of course the rest of the world and even some in the caribbean don't know this. So whoever find the word Native offensive should do a self esteem management class.

TY
Native

ejcrowe

Does Saba not also fit the description of being settled by predominantly white Europeans with real legacy of slavery ( in addition to St. Barth, that is)? Just curious, not trying to be contentious. But that's what I've gathered from my reading about Saba.

fiona

Everybody can not like the same things- after all, imagine trying to get bookings!
I have been to the east,south and west of the island and have enjoyed them all- but I would not return to the east as it was a bit too isolated for me. I have NEVER been harassed- I have obviously been lucky.
I have to say though that I have often been embarassed by the way some Europeans and Americans have addressed hotel or restaurant staff. Some people seem to have the opinion that Barbados is there for tourists only. Bajans don't solely exist to serve tourists and stay away from public places where tourists may be. I am sure that they would love to earn 65k and not live in poverty which spoils the views for tourists.
The problem is not with Beanies first post. She didn't like the island or her holiday and nobody can argue with that(?) She had made some interesting observations about the Bouganvillea from my point of view as I have looked to go there in the future and it will make me think twice.
However it was the following posts which reveal an attitude I had hoped had died along with colonialism and the days of slavery.

Enya

Well I am a West Indian "native" so you know we speak our mind and as we say in the islands "let who vex, vex!" Between Diana, Faithie, Caribtraveler (on another thread), I think much of what I wanted to say has already been said. I would only confirm to the OP having reading her insulting, derogatory, racist remarks about our beautiful islands and their people that you are definetly not the sort of visitor we would not be too hasty to welcome to our Caribbean shores. Yeah, some of us may be hard up but I think we would rather starve, do without, whatever, than have people likes of you as tourists among us. You say you can't stand poverty, well we here can't stand "ugly" and you lady, you come across beyond ugly, even hideous in so many ways! Ooh, I could go off on you but I won't even waste my time and the rest of the posters would get such a terrible impresssion of me. Just not worth it.

ejcrowe

oops, that was supposed to read WITHOUT any real legacy of slavery.

KXR

I am not a historian. Slavery was not practice on St. Barts. The Europeans came here were from other islands where slavery existed. In addition, the few blacks that are here came from other islands and ship wrecked (workers). Not sure about Saba. You have to understand these islands are very tiny and mountainous. Anyway, you will not find the tensions that exists on many other caribbean islands between the masses. Saba St. Eustatious St.Barts and Anguilla are very uniquely different. Maybe as more tourists find these islands, things may change. Having said all that, I don't believe anywhere in the world will find "Native"
offensive

Enya

KXR, I must be missing something here. You say "you will not find the same tensions that exist on other Caribbean islands among the masses. Saba, Anguilla, St Barts ...are very uniquely different." What tensions are you referring to may I ask? And how are Saba, Anguilla, St Barts etc different from the other islands?

KXR

This will be my last posting on this topic. Tensions I was referring to is as follows: Trinidad (Indo West Indians and Afro West Indian); Guyana (Same as Trinidad); Jamaica ( West Indians and Rastafarians); Dominica (West Indian and Carib); Virgin Islands (Black and White). Those examples should be enough to see my point. Hope this does not turn into another debate. The facts are there, we can either face them or ignore them.

faithie

Sorry to all for whom this is getting tedious , a little bit like a debate in school , with a few differences ! I shall re-phrase for KXR , The impression I had was that this person would only be happy on an island where she is served by people similar to herself ! ??? The re- buttal that St.Barts population is mainly French and swedish is my error , but beside the point . I do not believe she knew that , she was just happy they were not what SHE thought the " natives " were , which I believe is black , poor ,west indian . This is just what I percieved , and if somehow I am WAY off-base I will gladly eat crow !!!

Diana

Enya, I was hoping you would come along and see this thread. I really wanted to hear your thoughts on what has been written.

But then again, it is embarassing to me that ANYONE could have this kind of viewpoint, so I was also kind of wishing that you wouldn't have to see it.

The good news is that beanie most likely won't be in the same place at the same time as those of us who find her remarks incredibly-offensive.

The bad news is that there are people out there who actually find this to be acceptable behavior and thinking.

Maybe some of the other posters who didn't really understand what the fuss was about have now been better-educated, and at least might be more careful about using derogatory terminology in the future.

MarionCK

What disturbed me more than any other of Beanie's comments was her use of the word "vile" to describe the men who approached her on the beach. That's one strong word, in anyone's vocabulary !

She went on to say "just looking at them spoiled the landscape". Just think about that.

To mm...I don't have a horse "high" or otherwise...just a cute dog !

Marion

starfish1

O.K., I would now like to make a suggestion. How about we move on now and let this thing go. Alot of things have been said and alot of good points made. Let's not let it degenerate to the point that it gets tedious and derogatory. I know no one is forcing me to read all these threads but really, nuff said. Happy travels everyone and it's a good thing we don't all love the same places! Peace.