Last month I went shoppin in Montreal. Holt Renfrew is highly recommended by all the guide books and the salespeople seemed informed and good--they explained that if goods are made in Canada there is no duty under the NAFTA treaty so the quality clothes seemed to be real bargains. After the clothes were delivered, FedEx presented me with a hugh bill for duty! Evidently Holt Renfrew does not qualify for NAFTA and this constitutes a fraudulent misrepresentation to their US customers. Olgilvy's prices are exactly what the sales people tell you--if they say there is no duty, there is none. FedEx told me that this happens to Americans all the time when they shop at Holt Renfrew. I wish Fodor's had an email address so I could let them know too!

The retailer selling a product doesn't matter. What matters is the country of origin of the product being shipped across the border.

Either a clerk filled out a form incorrectly, or you bought products made ("made" as defined by / agreed to the US government during NAFTA negotiations)somewhere outside NAFTA territory.

What did HR say when you phoned and went over the shipping bill of lading and customs forms, while looking at the labels on the products?

Maybe HR needs to do a little internal training of clerks, telling them how to fill out some forms.

BAK

Did you get any clothes delivered from Ogilvy's ? I know Holt Renfrew has less clothes made in Canada than Ogilvy. Would that be the difference?   Both stores do not carry a lot of canadian made clothing.

Possibly the amount has more to do about what the allotment is that you are allowed to ship to the U.S.duty free, as far as your customs declaration goes.

After FedEx got in touch with me, Holt Renfrew people--the sales girl and the shipping department insisted that the clothes were duty free and the problem was the US government--they had me believing that I was dealing with a renegade group at FedEx who did not know what they were doing. Then they shifted gears and all began to lie! Now they insist that they told me everything was subject to duty when they encouraged me to buy based on the duty free concept! I have been so upset that I contacted US Customs where the investigator said it was "semi-fraud." Holt Renfrew is not covered by NAFTA now. Olgilvy is quite different. There is no duty on the goods that they ship if they tell you there is none. I have shopped there for several years and had no problems at all. Each department knows whether or not their goods are subject to duty. The worst part of the Holt Renfrew episode was when they all started lying and blaming the US government and 9/11 instead of saying they hadn't known. I am now starting to believe that they do know their goods are not duty free but continue to use it as a big selling point! FedEx told me that Holt Renfrew no longer qualifies for NAFTA even though their label is inside the clothes! They are having a lot of problems with unexpected duty on Holt Renfrew shipments. I can tell you, it's not the forms! The delivery from Olgilvy was a larger value and there was no duty--it came just after the Holt delivery. This had nothing to do with allotments. I'm glad it's over and that the head of the company has agreed that I can return everything to them. As a bonus, I found an identical suit at Saks for $200 less--not counting duty--yesterday and there was no sale! Holt Renfrew definitely overcharges and it's a shame since it felt like such a fine store! All that gliters is not gold!

What a shame!
We returned from Montreal this past August loaded down with goodies bought in both Ogilvies and Holt Renfrew and everything we bought was De-Taxed.
If you lived in NYC, Holt Renfrew would be just another nice department store, while expensive, they are not shocking! Where are you going to buy Prada for less? Most people do not go to such stores for bargains..but if you ever decide to try it again, go in the summer for their summer sales.

I do live in New York and I really shop for value as opposed to bargain basement. I go up to Montreal to visit friends each summer but have not done much shopping at Holt Renfrew since my friends all prefer Olgilvy though I have gotten a couple of coats at Berger Chrisiansen which has an outlet in Holt Renfrew but is a separate business. This August was the first time I bought several things at Holt Renfrew and it will be the last! Hopefully this will not happen to you but I thought it worthwhile to mention since it really did happen to me and according to FedEx to a lot of our fellow Americans.

We were there at the same time
I also go to Montreal one or two times a year, for some time now. I, personally, love shopping at HR and often do so with friends who live there.
I never pay that much attention to the duty thing, if I want something, I am not going to worry about getting money back on it, but I can see how this must have been annoying, being told one thing and having it cost you!
This summer I did well with the perfumes, bags and jewelry
Lucky for me, at least, we have had trouble free shopping in Montreal.
Did you try the Ailes stores?

I was lucky enough to be in Montreal during the blackout and could watch it on TV. Were you there that week? I'm cheering up now because they are taking all of the clothes back and today I found a georgeous Gucci bag in Saks and I bought it with the money I'm now not paying in duty! There was also a Max Mara jacket I almost bought at Holts and it was $270 less at Saks--without the duty added on so I got that too! Maybe we have a better trade agreement with Italy? The really great values at Holts are in the Berger Christensen boutique there--they must have the most beautiful furs in the world and I've been very happy with them. Have you ever been to the Bonaparte? It is a lovely little restaurant in Old Montreal with great lunches and dinners and you can stay at the inn there if you get a reservation early enough. I introduced some of my friends from Montreal to it and they loved it--I found it in a guide book. How do you travel to Montreal? A lot of people are driving now.

How well it worked out for you !

We drive up. We go straight through, but stop at the Sagamore on the way back for a night or two.
We usually go in August and the fall.
We have eaten at the Bonapart and did like it. The service was very good, it was chilly and I remember not wanting to go out in the cold night.
Our new favorite restos are Le Petit Extra, L'Express, Il Cortile and we never miss going to Cafe Ferriera and Toque. Thanks to great advice from this forum, we now add Cafe Cherrier and the cafes in Outremont to the ever growing list!
Last fall my husband gifted me with a coat from a furrier in Montreal, much better prices than any boutique or dept store. If you want the name, let me know.
Stay safe & dry!
Scarlett

I'm just not sure here whether Holt-Renfrew mis-informed you, or they failed to properly provide a "certificate of origin", or they failed to complete the shipping form properly, or whether your specific purchases did not qualify. Any which way, it is deplorable that this happened to you.

And, I would mention to everyone herein that on every occasion I've shopped at Holt-Renfrew, since the "Provincial" tax refund has been rescinded, I've been told there, over and over again, that "you can get ALL the taxes back", when, in fact, you cannot.

It would be one thing if they were ignorant of the change (which they, of course, should not be) but it is another when they dispute you, and you KNOW BETTER.

I'm just amazed (and, thank you dreamybeach) that anyone continues to shop there!

Thank you for the moral support djkbooks! The FedEx lady who is an expert on this subject cleared up some of the mystery today. The highest US import duties are on textiles and Holt Renfrew imports the materials they use for their brand labels and then put in the made in Canada label. I think we all hope that their salesforce is simply ignorant of this! The shipping department there is definitely not ignorant and all of the paperwork was done properly--duty is definitely due! I wrote a letter to Andrew Jennings the head of the company with a copy to Nicole Parisien who is district manager, so now management knows what their sales force does not know and is responsable for training them accordingly! Unwitting fraud is still fraud. You are right, had they just apologized and said they did not know about the duty I might have forgotten all about it, however, three different people on their staff all began to lie in unison about what had happened making it appear that I was the one who was dishonest or very confused. At that point, everything was going back! The lady at FedEx is thrilled since she has to deal with this everyday and hopes this will help curb the problem. She also said that I must fill out forms for US Customs to remove the duty charge.... It never ends! One of my friends in Montreal commented: quelle bande d'imbeciles! I don't think I could trust that store ever again. Thank heavens for Olgilvy's!

Though I'd very much like to believe that they are "ignorant" of the regulations/procedures, but that the shipping department is apprised, and the clerks pretend not to be, should tell everyone something.

And, I've had the same "conversation" with the very same clerks, in several departments at Holt Renfrew over many visits to Montreal. You'd think they'd become more "knowledgeable" over time? I know the lingerie lady has not. (And, she pretends not to remember me, too!)

Your FedEx lady is a "find" for assistance. For sure, there are "rememedies" which, as you are learning, are cumbersome.

You know, we're off to Montreal again next month. One of our stops will be our favorite shoe store. The register clerk there is SO informed, he always reminds us to take our purchases with us when applying for the tax refund at the border, "because your purchases of this amount require inspection".

To my mind, there is just no excuse for the clerks at Holt Renfrew being "ignorant", if, indeed they are, which I doubt.

Hopefully, Holt Renfrew, though your diligent endeavors (my gosh!), will train their staff. However, many "departments" within the store are "concessions", so I'm guessing they can reprimand them, but have no power to dismiss the individuals in question. Though, they may surely re-think renting their space to them.

How much did these exprt fees cost you? You are in an awful frenzy, so I would assume we are talking $1,000. If you are doing this much kvetching over $100 or less, I would have to wonder if it is worth it.

No one is in a "frenzy" here.

And, no one is "kvetching" either.

The "amount" is insignificant.

What's "worth it" here is informing others.

For me, the real issue is that their employees are lying--first that there was no duty which could be passed off as a very ignorant staff--second that they now say they informed me about the duty which is a deliberate lie. To misrepresent the true cost of goods to US citizens is fraud. US shoppers in that store should be made aware of this so that they can protect themselves. And, yes, your $ estimate is in the right neighborhood. And yes I am shocked that the staff of such a reputable store would behave in this way. Since their private label clothes are marked "made in Canada" the customers are really dependent on the sales force to let them know that they don't qualify for NAFTA and full duties must be paid.

Having "shopped" or, nowadays browsed mostly, at Holt Renfrew over the years, the point here is that sales clerks encourage you to buy with untrue declarations regarding "duty free" shipments and tax refunds.

I was in Holt Renfrew in downtown Toronto tonight and askjed three clerks, in three different departments, about shipping to foreign countries, and all gave me accurate information.

This particular Holt's store has a great series of photo exhibitions on, themed to the recent Toronto Film Festival, for those who don't want to buy clothes, but do enjoy good photogaphy.

I guess understanding the laws of one's own country would be too much to expect, but store clerks are expected to understand laws of countries other than their own.

BAK

For BAK: So did you actually make purchases? And, how would you know whether the "information" you were given was "accurate"?

I asked questions to which I knew the answers. It's simple enough to do.

The three clerks were helpful, and, to the extent that I understand women's fashions, I can see why travellers with good taste would like to buy from this store.

I never knew until yesterday evening that skirts came with matching underwear, for instance. But they sell them at Holt's.

Fofor's readers who also read W might find a photogaph of Queen Elizabeth in the Kate Moss Cover" issue. Beside the picture of Her Majesty is a story about the owners of Holt's, although the story does not mention the store.

The Toronto cafe inside the store is a great looking place, too. I went into the cafe to look at the photographs on the walls, but the food was just as artistic, and according to the people I talked to at one table, tastes good. The cafe decor was splendid.

Now that I'm thinking about duties and the responsibilities of returning travellers to know the rules in their own countries, I'll ask similar questions at some other stores, and see what kind of replies I get regarding items I think visitors to Canada might want to export from Canada and import into another country.

BAK

BAK, my only experience with Holt Renfrew has been their Montreal store. Maybe the Toronto store is the good twin. A very large percent of the Montreal store's sales are to US citizens according to their executives and of course they are responsable to answer their questions truthfully! I am familiar with US Customs laws and I did check that there were made in Canada labels on each garment. However, you are completely ignoring the deliberate lying that I and others have experienced. Certainly no customer is expected to know everything about the products that they consider buying--that's why the sales force is there. I specifically asked for clothes that were made in Canada and qualified under NAFTA. They could always have said they didn't know if that was the case! But, they do press for their sales and they do use "duty free" as a selling point and insist that they do know, and under the law in any country that is fraud. If they are not truthful about duties, what other information would they fabricate to make their sales? One of my friends in Montreal summed it up quite well: quelle bande d'imbeciles et nuls!