Depressed dolphin a tourist attraction??
Oct 27th, 2003, 02:34 PM
#21
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Here's the latest on Howard ("hot off the presses", or just heard on local Edmonton radio) -
Apparently West Edmonton Mall receives over 500 e-mails a day about Howard.
A spokesman said that they plan to move Howard as soon as his health improves. It turns out that Howard has ulcers, and has lost weight since his mate Mavis died in July, and a move right now would kill him.
More bad news - WEM plans to get more dolphins in the future. Anything for a buck, I guess.
Apparently West Edmonton Mall receives over 500 e-mails a day about Howard.
A spokesman said that they plan to move Howard as soon as his health improves. It turns out that Howard has ulcers, and has lost weight since his mate Mavis died in July, and a move right now would kill him.
More bad news - WEM plans to get more dolphins in the future. Anything for a buck, I guess.
Oct 28th, 2003, 06:49 AM
#22
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i haven't heard anything about wem planning on getting more dolphins in the future and with all this public outcry, i highly doubt they would. they did say this morning that their vet figures howard would die if they attempt a move now.
Oct 28th, 2003, 08:54 AM
#23
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Hello ltt -
the comment about getting more dolphins was made by a WEM spokesman in a radio interview yesterday (Monday) afternoon.
Basically, he said that he would not rule it out, especially since dolphins are a tourist attraction.
(Hmmm . . but why in Edmonton? we are miles away from any ocean, and I can't imagine anyone coming here just to see dolphins.)
the comment about getting more dolphins was made by a WEM spokesman in a radio interview yesterday (Monday) afternoon.
Basically, he said that he would not rule it out, especially since dolphins are a tourist attraction.
(Hmmm . . but why in Edmonton? we are miles away from any ocean, and I can't imagine anyone coming here just to see dolphins.)
Nov 3rd, 2003, 12:59 PM
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I believe there is another side to this story.
Firstly, the "pool" at WEM is much larger than it appears from the surface. It expands under the water level and is actually quite large. The part you see where the dolphins surface is a small percentage of the total.You can only appreciate the size of it if you take the submarine ride and see it from underwater.
Also, I dont understand why humans insist on attributing human characteristics and motivations to animals.You assume that since you would not want to spend your life in captivity, an animal wouldnt either. However, concepts such as "freedom", "free will" , "captivity" etc. do not exist for animals. In the wild, thier existance is dominated by a constant struggle to meet basic needs for survival, and they are "happy" when these needs are met. They are often hungry, sick, and cold. Many die slow lingering deaths from illness or wounds inflicted by predators. Thier life spans are very short in the wild.
At WEM their environment is maintained at ideal conditions. They are fed, recieve expert veterinary care, and have the constant attention and compainionship of trainers who care for them very much. And the dolphins appear to have genuine affection for the trainers.They are not allowed to suffer. The other dolphins which recently died had been in the pool for 15 years, and appeared to be very happy.
If dolphins did think like humans, which they dont, I wonder how many would "choose" a life in the wild over the life they have at WEM and other zoo facilities.And how many would say they are "unhappy".
To say a dolphin is "depressed" because as a human you would not like to live like they do in WEM is not valid. Go live in the wilderness without the comforts of our modern society for a while and then comment on how much worse it is for well cared for dophins in captivity than in the wild.
And guess what- many people DO learn a lot about dolphins and wildlife in general by observing them in captivity. And we learn a lot about their behavior and characteristics which helps us to help animals living everywhere.
I say get Howard a new mate.
Firstly, the "pool" at WEM is much larger than it appears from the surface. It expands under the water level and is actually quite large. The part you see where the dolphins surface is a small percentage of the total.You can only appreciate the size of it if you take the submarine ride and see it from underwater.
Also, I dont understand why humans insist on attributing human characteristics and motivations to animals.You assume that since you would not want to spend your life in captivity, an animal wouldnt either. However, concepts such as "freedom", "free will" , "captivity" etc. do not exist for animals. In the wild, thier existance is dominated by a constant struggle to meet basic needs for survival, and they are "happy" when these needs are met. They are often hungry, sick, and cold. Many die slow lingering deaths from illness or wounds inflicted by predators. Thier life spans are very short in the wild.
At WEM their environment is maintained at ideal conditions. They are fed, recieve expert veterinary care, and have the constant attention and compainionship of trainers who care for them very much. And the dolphins appear to have genuine affection for the trainers.They are not allowed to suffer. The other dolphins which recently died had been in the pool for 15 years, and appeared to be very happy.
If dolphins did think like humans, which they dont, I wonder how many would "choose" a life in the wild over the life they have at WEM and other zoo facilities.And how many would say they are "unhappy".
To say a dolphin is "depressed" because as a human you would not like to live like they do in WEM is not valid. Go live in the wilderness without the comforts of our modern society for a while and then comment on how much worse it is for well cared for dophins in captivity than in the wild.
And guess what- many people DO learn a lot about dolphins and wildlife in general by observing them in captivity. And we learn a lot about their behavior and characteristics which helps us to help animals living everywhere.
I say get Howard a new mate.
Nov 3rd, 2003, 01:35 PM
#26
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Jimmoi - you make a lot of sence. But on the other hand I don't think that capturing another Dolphin from the wild in order to provide Howard with a mate is the answer. Buying one or a few from another zoo or aquarium however would seem to be a fair solution.
Nov 3rd, 2003, 02:51 PM
#27
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Howard has lost weight, is listless, doesn't have an appetite, and has many other health problems. This is according to the WEM staff vet. Please don't be patronizing and assume that the characterization of Howard as depressed is some sort of Walt Disney-eque anthropomorphization.
Anyone who thinks that the pool at WEM is acceptable as a living place must also think that a tree in a container is a forest, and wouldn't mind living their life in one concrete room.
I have taken the submarine ride at WEM - it is an amusement and definitely NOT an environment to live in.
Anyone who thinks that the pool at WEM is acceptable as a living place must also think that a tree in a container is a forest, and wouldn't mind living their life in one concrete room.
I have taken the submarine ride at WEM - it is an amusement and definitely NOT an environment to live in.
Nov 3rd, 2003, 03:20 PM
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I'm not patronizing. I have a lot of respect for those who care enough about dolphins to express their concerns.
I only ask to examine the issue from all angles before making decisions that,
however well intentioned, may not be in the best interests of the animals.
I only ask to examine the issue from all angles before making decisions that,
however well intentioned, may not be in the best interests of the animals.
Nov 3rd, 2003, 06:23 PM
#29
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The dolphins at WEM were not kept there for their own best interest. They were kept there as a source of revenue for the owners of the mall.
According to news reports, Howard's mate Mavis stopped eating and subsequently died after the death of her second baby (who lasted a mere few weeks). Her first baby was born in the WEM pool and also died after a brief time. "Ideal conditions"?? - I think not!!!
The natural environment for dolphins is the ocean. Oceans are huge and teeming with all sorts of life. The pool at WEM is nothing close to being like an ocean. I wouldn't be surprised if all the dolphins that lived there suffered from some sort of sensory deprivation.
It would be better for Howard to be moved to a facility that more closely mimicked a dolphin's natural habitat, not a shopping mall/amusement park flooded with bright lights.
According to news reports, Howard's mate Mavis stopped eating and subsequently died after the death of her second baby (who lasted a mere few weeks). Her first baby was born in the WEM pool and also died after a brief time. "Ideal conditions"?? - I think not!!!
The natural environment for dolphins is the ocean. Oceans are huge and teeming with all sorts of life. The pool at WEM is nothing close to being like an ocean. I wouldn't be surprised if all the dolphins that lived there suffered from some sort of sensory deprivation.
It would be better for Howard to be moved to a facility that more closely mimicked a dolphin's natural habitat, not a shopping mall/amusement park flooded with bright lights.
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:32 AM
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No one is suggesting that Howard be released into the wild. Just, as Borealis points out, put into a proper facility. WEM is NOT a marine life sancturary whose purpose is to care for animals and educate us about them. It's a mall, and Howard is there to make money.
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:37 AM
#31
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As several people have pointed out here, there is no way the West Edmonton Mall can duplicate the dolphins' natural environment. They normally swim up to 50 miles a day and dive to depths of up to 500 feet. Statistics gathered by one of the wildlife protection agencies in the US indicate that dolphins live much longer in the wild than in captivity. I think it's criminal to capture and imprison them so that we and our kids can be entertained. And I don't think it's particularly anthropomorphic to make assumptions about them being "depressed." Animals do grieve and do become depressed; this is not a privilege extended only to humans.
Nov 4th, 2003, 04:55 PM
#32
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Well, you guys are the experts, so I will make no further comments. I just wonder how you KNOW that a dolphin becoming ill is because he is depressed because of his environment (when other dophins there lived healty long lives)and not due to about 483 other possible causes, and that none of the other points raised above have any validity. I supect its because you "just know". I certainly hope you are right.
Anyhow, isnt this supposed to be a travel forum? I live in Edmonton and wouldnt recommend the mall anyway, dolphins notwhithstanding. Its tacky and rundown, and , I think, an emabarassement to an otherwise quite nice city.
Anyhow, isnt this supposed to be a travel forum? I live in Edmonton and wouldnt recommend the mall anyway, dolphins notwhithstanding. Its tacky and rundown, and , I think, an emabarassement to an otherwise quite nice city.
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:17 PM
#33
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While we "guys" are most likely not "the experts"..this man is.
Mr Richard O'Barry, a Wildlife Consultant for the World Society for the Protection of Animals (and once a dolphin trainer) says this regarding "Depressed Dolphins......
"I've seen these so many times, in so many places," he said. "Usually,
they lie on the surface of the water. I call it captive dolphin
depression syndrome...I coined that phrase. It comes from isolation.
Dolphins are isolated in a cage, and they're very social creatures. At
that point, they can choose not to take the next breath. Breathing to
them is a conscious effort. That's what Cathy (the dolphin from Flipper) did; she never took
another breath."
Depressed
O'Barry said he tried to revive her, but Cathy had wanted to die. The
Flipper series had ended the year before Cathy died, and she was
separated from O'Barry for the first time in seven years.
"She became very depressed," he said. ''In between shows, you can see
them very depressed especially if they're in isolation. That's what
killed her really."
Suicide, pneumonia, liver ailment, respiratory infection, drowning are
among the most common reasons for dolphin death while in captivity,
according to O'Barry.
Mr Richard O'Barry, a Wildlife Consultant for the World Society for the Protection of Animals (and once a dolphin trainer) says this regarding "Depressed Dolphins......
"I've seen these so many times, in so many places," he said. "Usually,
they lie on the surface of the water. I call it captive dolphin
depression syndrome...I coined that phrase. It comes from isolation.
Dolphins are isolated in a cage, and they're very social creatures. At
that point, they can choose not to take the next breath. Breathing to
them is a conscious effort. That's what Cathy (the dolphin from Flipper) did; she never took
another breath."
Depressed
O'Barry said he tried to revive her, but Cathy had wanted to die. The
Flipper series had ended the year before Cathy died, and she was
separated from O'Barry for the first time in seven years.
"She became very depressed," he said. ''In between shows, you can see
them very depressed especially if they're in isolation. That's what
killed her really."
Suicide, pneumonia, liver ailment, respiratory infection, drowning are
among the most common reasons for dolphin death while in captivity,
according to O'Barry.
Nov 26th, 2003, 07:14 AM
#34
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News about Howard - today's topic for a column in Canada'a national newspaper (The Globa and Mail):
Story title:
WORLD'S LONELIEST DOLPHIN SWIMS ENDLESS CIRCLES IN MALL, JUST LIKE SOME HUMANS
Link:
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/.../TPColumnists/
Story title:
WORLD'S LONELIEST DOLPHIN SWIMS ENDLESS CIRCLES IN MALL, JUST LIKE SOME HUMANS
Link:
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/.../TPColumnists/
Nov 27th, 2003, 08:14 AM
#35
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I don't think we are ever going to learn.... 
West Edmonton Mall will never see my dollars, and I will write an e-mail a day, as small as a gesture it may be, as I can be an enormous pain in the a** !
Hopefully Harold will get "well" and can be transported to a "retirement" sanctuary in Florida, where he can spend the rest of his days in the company of his peers. ( Hopefully not as a tourist attraction where someone will try to swim with him every day ! )
West Edmonton Mall will never see my dollars, and I will write an e-mail a day, as small as a gesture it may be, as I can be an enormous pain in the a** !
Hopefully Harold will get "well" and can be transported to a "retirement" sanctuary in Florida, where he can spend the rest of his days in the company of his peers. ( Hopefully not as a tourist attraction where someone will try to swim with him every day ! )
Jan 9th, 2004, 10:19 AM
#36
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An update on the health of Howard, the "tourist attraction" dolphin, appears in a local Edmonton newspaper today:
http://www.canada.com/edmonton/story...5-FC1A99EADE10
http://www.canada.com/edmonton/story...5-FC1A99EADE10
Jan 9th, 2004, 02:32 PM
#40
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Ginger - there is a big difference between fish and mammals. You must have forgotten your primary school education (I'm surprised that you are not embarassed by that).
For info about the intelligence of dolphins (in comparison to humans and other primates), here are some interesting stories:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/featu...989714,00.html
http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/05-3-01/Science/2.html
For info about the intelligence of dolphins (in comparison to humans and other primates), here are some interesting stories:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/featu...989714,00.html
http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/05-3-01/Science/2.html
