nevermind

The flights are booked. We'll be in Australia from mid-August to mid-September. I've also booked our first three nights in Sydney. Now I'm trying to put together the rest of the trip and would sure appreciate suggestions. I've haunted this board for several weeks now, but still feel pretty overwhelmed by all the choices we have and decisions we must make.

Here are my thoughts for what to do after our three nights in Sydney:

An overnight in the Blue Mountains

Fly to Alice Springs , rent a car, and spend 2 or 3 nights in that region.

Then fly to Cairns. I know there is a lot to do in this area, but I just don't know how to narrow it down. We'd love to spend several days on one of the islands of the GBR, but there are so many and the accommodations appear to be expensive. We are quiet, so not looking for nightlife. Mostly we enjoy sightseeing and just "being". I'd really appreciate any input on the "personalities" the different islands might have. We're also considering a liveaboard trip, and have read about the Reef Encounter, the Coral Princess, and the Spirit of Freedom. We don't dive, however, and are unsure of how comfortable we would be snorkeling - would we be like "fish out of water" on one of these cruises? A glass bottom boat would be very much to our liking!

We then plan to take a train from Cairns (or where ever we end up) back down to Sydney. Any thoughts on this?

Any suggestions on scenic drives should we decide to rent a car?

I would really appreciate any suggestions/comments any of you may have to help me with my planning.

Thanks,
Linda

Susan7

There's been quite a lot of discussion about different islands, so maybe do a search of this site to see what previous discussions might help you make a decision (Heron vs Lizard etc). Only some of the islands are directly on the reef: Lady Elliott, Heron Island, Green Island, Lizard Island, might be another two. That makes a huge difference, on some islands (the Whitsundays, for example) you are several hours from the reef.

If you rent a car returning to Sydney from Cairns you could stop in Brisbane which is a very vibrant city.

In Alice Springs make sure you go to the Olive Pink Botanical Garden, the Desert Zoo (can't remember what it's called), Araluen Cultural Centre (interesting paintings by an indigneous artist Albert Namatjira and Standley Chasm (fabulous black-footed wallaby).

chimani

Hi,
well you have a whole month and that's great!!

You are right about there being a lot to do up near Cairns (Far North Queensland or FNQ for short). I mean without visiting the reef being a top priority. But first, can I tell you two stories?

Friends of mine went on the 3 day Coral Princess trip up to Lizard Island. It was probably the most expensive part of their trip, and they enjoyed it. But at the end of the day it didn't figure in their most treasured memories. She snorkelled. He had gone to the trouble of buying prescription goggles and taking swimming lessons (not being all that comfortable in the water) but still didn't snorkel. He took the glass bottom boat.

Me - I had never snorkelled before when I first went to the GBR. I went on a small boat where the crew were careful to explain to everyone on board how to fit the mask, how spit should be used to prepare it; how to use fins; not to stand on the coral etc, etc. And at the end of that day I was awarded the Certificate for "Best Beginner". You have to laugh!! - now it was 10 years ago and things have moved on. So many more people dive now that snorkellers really are the poor relations, and on more recent trips I found it was excpected that you knew what to do.

So - my suggestion would be to go to FNQ. Visit the Daintree. You have the time to spare to ask around and find a trip on a small boat where you would be guaranteed personal attention. Or just tell them when you book that you have never snorkelled before and gauge their reaction. Cos it is an amazing experience.

Alternatively - go to FNQ - and

chimani

Hi,
well you have a whole month and that's great!!

You are right about there being a lot to do up near Cairns (Far North Queensland or FNQ for short). I mean without visiting the reef being a top priority. But first, can I tell you two stories?

Friends of mine went on the 3 day Coral Princess trip up to Lizard Island. It was probably the most expensive part of their trip, and they enjoyed it. But at the end of the day it didn't figure in their most treasured memories. She snorkelled. He had gone to the trouble of buying prescription goggles and taking swimming lessons (not being all that comfortable in the water) but still didn't snorkel. He took the glass bottom boat.

Me - I had never snorkelled before when I first went to the GBR. I went on a small boat where the crew were careful to explain to everyone on board how to fit the mask, how spit should be used to prepare it; how to use fins; not to stand on the coral etc, etc. And at the end of that day I was awarded the Certificate for "Best Beginner". You have to laugh!! - now it was 10 years ago and things have moved on. So many more people dive now that snorkellers really are the poor relations, and on more recent trips I found it was excpected that you knew what to do.

So - my suggestion would be to go to FNQ. Visit the Daintree. You have the time to spare to ask around and find a trip on a small boat where you would be guaranteed personal attention. Or just tell them when you book that you have never snorkelled before and gauge their reaction. Cos it is an amazing experience.

Alternatively - go to FNQ - and sort of forget the GBR - do the other stuff - a trip up to Cooktown maybe. Then head off to the Whitsundays and do your on the water adventure there. Cos there are loads more boats to chose from; and most are in the 14-20 pax class.

Also the Whitsundays are one of my favourite places here,

As for the train from Cairns to Sydney - no - I don't think so, though I do think it is a brilliant idea to take a train.

Why not take the Ghan from Alice to Darwin and visit Kakadu, then fly from there to Cairns, You can get from Cairns to Airlie Beach for the Whitsundays by bus. Then you could fly to Brissie. Hire a car - go explore roundabouts - and fly back to Sydney.

Apols for the long post. But the possibilities are enormous and I am passionate about non std itineraries.

longhorn55

If you are lucky enough to have a whole month in Australia, I don't think you should just limit yourself to Sydney, Alice Springs and Cairns. I think chimani's idea of taking the Ghan from Alice to Darwin is great. You could easily spend several days exploring Darwin, Litchfield National Park, Territory Wildlife Park and Berry Springs Park, and Kakadu National Park.
Then you could fly from Darwin to Cairns and instead of going to one of the islands or doing a liveaboard, I'd recommend driving north to Port Douglas and base your stay there. It's a lovely little town with a fabulous beach (the aptly-named Four Mile Beach) and some really good restaurants. It's a good jumping-off place for visits to the Daintree National Park, the Tablelands, etc. Finally, there's a whole fleet of boats there to take you out to the Reef (and I strongly recommend that you do so as it's a real natural wonder of the world). I think you would enjoy a trip with Wavelength. They take out a maximum of 30 passengers and they are especially good with folks who are new to snorkeling. (Hint: Rent a wetsuit for the day regardless of the water temperatures as it gives you a lot of buoyancy in the water making snorkeling easy.)

SnRSeattle

Yea! You are booked to Australia and have a good plan. We went to the Blue Mountains and stayed at Jenolan Caves, then took a hike in the nearby but remote place Kanangra Walls. Awesome! We also stopped at the three sisters,etc. going and coming. If you are going to Alice, are you planning to go to Uluru, also? I sure hope so! We spent three nights just at Uluru and had a great time, hiking, learning at the cultural center, and taking the Aborigine-led tours. RE Cairns area: our upcoming trip this October will be almost exclusively in FNQ and we have 5 weeks, so it is too true that there are a lot of things to do. I would advise you to get a good guide book (or several from your library since they all have different plusses and minuses) and just prioritize and then cut out half, just like when you are packing! We love to snorkel and are soon to be enrolled in a PADI certification course for SCUBA. Here is my story about that, for what it is worth. I wasn't sure I wanted to snorkel since I was somewhat afraid of deep water (you never know what kinds of large fish are going to nibble on your toes.) However, once I put my face in the water with that lovely mask and a DRY snorkel, well, I fell in love. Those fishies don't care one bit about you, they are going about their lives in this magical world that is unseen by the air-breathing creatures of the Earth except when we put on a snorkel mask. It is a priviledge to look in on them and I am looking forward to diving among them. That said, if you still don't want to, several operations have a boat trip to a pontoon on the reef (Reef Magic out of Cairns and Quicksilver out of Port Douglas) where you can go in an underwater viewing place and/or a semisubmersible. It is a World Heritage site, and not for nothing. We stayed, by the way, in Port Douglas at Le Cher du Monde which was affordable ($150) and very comfortable, and handy to PD restaurants, etc. RE the train from Cairns to Sydney--several people here have proposed that and the Aussies have nixed it firmly. Too much time and pretty boring scenery. Look at this site: http://www.travelmate.com.au/MapMake..._Page=mapmaker and you can see the time it takes to do what you are thinking of doing. And people have said here, when I asked, that it usually takes longer than the site says. Good luck with your planning--that is half the fun!
Sally in Seattle

nevermind

I love your suggestions!! Thank you so much. I had been worried that we'd planned too much time in Australia (as if that could really be possible...) Thanks to you all, I have new ideas to explore. We already have the Lonely Planet Guidebook. Today we went into town and bought two more guidebooks. I just hope we don't confuse ourselves even more!!!

We had considered taking the Ghan from Melbourne to Alice Springs, but felt constricted by the fact it only goes 2x a week and weren't sure the timing would fit in to our plans. Chimani, since we have the time, taking it to Darwin from Alice Springs might just be a brilliant plan. We can tweak the time we spend prior to our trip to Alice Springs (and in AS) to work with the train schedule. We really want to do some train travel. I do appreciate your comments on snorkeling etc. as well. And... no apologies necessary for a long post -- I love getting as much inside information as possible!

Susan, thank you for the suggestions of things other than Uluru and the Olgas (which we will do, of course) to do in the Alice Springs area.

Longhorn, I've read good things about Port Douglas, I will research it further. Also, I appreciate your comments on Wavelength. I will also look into that.

Sally (Seattle) two nays (and zero yeas) on the Cairn to Sydney rail plans are food for thought. We'll definately reconsider. Thanks, too, for the suggestion on Port Douglas accommodations. I'm finding bugeting to be a delicate balance. I'd love to hear more about your Blue Mountain experience.

Now... would Tasmania be a good option, do you think?

chimani

What from your reading appeals to you about Tassie?

I know why I liked it so much on my only visit (I was there for over 2 weeks) - fantastic scenery; great walks; history). And it is a wonderful place to just wander. But why do you think it might appeal to you?

It is one place in Australia where I would most definately recommend hiring a car (Alice Spring, btw, is not).

But if you want to go to Tassie, remember it will be sort of chilly at the end of the winter.

I don't want to put you off - it's a lovely place. But you would have to pay careful attention to the order in which you visit places unless money is no object.

For instance - you can't fly from Alice to Tassie direct. And you can't fly direct from Tassie to anywhere except SYD or MLB.

So you must think about it if pluggimg in to cheap flights is important to you to keep costs down.

Suggestions for you to mull over.

Fly from Sydney to Tassie direct - no problem. Hire a car once there. Then take ferry to Melbourne - there's an overnight sailing. And fly to Alice (with luck on same day). Ghan to Darwin. Fly to Cairns. Bus to Whitsundays. Fly to Sydney.

ferry info can be found here:
http://www.spiritoftasmania.com.au/t...s/schedule.htm

Happy planning!!!

nevermind

chimani, you are a wealth of information. Thank you. Last night I had trouble sleeping, as my head was swimming with the excitement of having read the recent posts and planning! Tasmania appeals to us because it sounds quiet and a bit remote. Some of our favorite travel memories come from places such as the Hebrides, the Scottish Highlands, and the far north of Ireland where the scenery is stunning and there aren't masses of people. We really enjoy taking long drives. Perhaps I am wrong about Tasmania -- and if I am, I would want to know! Thanks, too, for the link to the ferry crossings.

Why don't you recommend hiring a car in Alice Springs? We had thought it might be a place where we would be comfortable driving (not much traffic...).

I'll try pricing out some of the various itineraries this weekend. Price becomes more of an object as we add to our itinerary!

SnRSeattle

Hi, nevermind, we drove to Jenolan Caves right from the Sydney airport on our arrival in Oz. We could do this because we had flown first class (FF miles) and slept, and husband Randy is an enthusiastic left-hand driver. That said, the traffic was nothing and the drive pleasant. We stopped in Katoomba for the Three Sisters and a walk around Luera then braved the one-way steep drive down to Jenolan Caves (braved because it was almost bus-UP time and if we had met a bus, it would have been quite dicey backing up or passing) Advice: check with Lodge for current bus times. Road was OK otherwise, if narrow. You arrive going under this huge rock--like you are going into a cave. It is fantastic. The lodge is old English looking. We got upgraded to a large room (but it was freezing, luckily they had a little portable heater in the bathroom.) We love it! You book the caves ahead of time, then show up. The tours are not too cheesy and the formations are fantastic. Then we drove to Kanangra Walls and had the place to ourselves. It was wonderful, lovely light on the Blue Mountains and wallabies sighted both ways. We spent two nights there (at the Lodge) and loved it. You shouldn't have the frost on the roads like we did in July, although it wasn't cold hiking. We then did the tour in Katoomba down into the valley on the way home, very neat. I am in love with tree ferns! BTW, in Uluru we stayed in Sails in the Desert (another upgrade--we were booked into the Outback, which looked fine) and it was great. All the hotels there are owned by the same resort and they book everything. We ate in the less expensive places and had a car to do the sunrise, sunset, cultural center, tours, hikes, etc. the way we wanted to. I recommend it. Driving there was a snap, few cars and nice roads. Just watch out for driving at dusk or dawn--1) your insurance probably won't cover it in the first place and 2) the animals, particularly the feral camels, are out then and hitting them with no one else in sight wouldn't be a good thing. That might be why the other poster said that driving around Alice wasn't a good idea. We drove around Uluru, from Darwin to Kakadu, all around the Cairns area, and to and from the Blue Mountains and found it fine. Others may have different experiences, but compared to the traffic around Seattle, it was quite easy. You'll have a wonderful time! Guide books: besides Lonely Planet--get them for the different regions you are going to as well as the Australia one (from the library, although I'd buy the Queensland one), check out Insight Guide (I think it is Discovery Channel and has some short informative essays), National Geographic (great pix), and Dorling Kindersly Eyewitness (GREAT pix). Don't bother buying a Sydney one, there are tons of free ones at the airport, but do some planning ahead of time or else you will be overwhelmed! I am a research junkie, so I read everything!
Sally in Seattle

nevermind

Sally, thanks for the input. My husband (whose name is Randy as well -- what coincidence!) is also comfortable with driving on the left. I've read about lots of extra fees being levied on car rentals which almost double the price you think you are being charged. Is this accurate? This weekend I plan to sit down and calculate the approximate costs of different modes of transportation. Right now we are visiting our grandbabies, and I'm delightfully distracted, finding time to use the computer only when they are napping or tucked away for the night. We're going home tomorrow, so I can really settle in for some nuts and bolts...

I envy your first class tickets. Alas, I doubt that I will ever manage such a thing!! We are fortunate, however, our roundtrip tickets from San Francisco to Sydney cost us nothing, as we used points earned on our credit card - so that certainly helps with financing the trip. We do have aisle seat assignments, so I hope we'll be reasonably comfortable on the long flight!

How did you manage the upgrades at Jenolan Caves Lodge and Uluru? Like the rest of the world, I'm always looking for ways to maximize my buying power!

We are alike in our attention to planning! I find that I generally enjoy my travels much more when I know something about the area I'm visiting and have an idea of what I want to do and see. We took our grandson to the bookstore today and, in addition to a book for him, we picked up yet another guidebook for Australia! We'll be paperback experts by the time we finish!

Thanks again for all the insight and advice.

stamiya

Hi, all - not trying to "hijack" this post, but we'll be about 30 days behind Nevermind on our trip, also for about a month, during October. We've been trying to decide whether to rent a car in Darwin or take day trips with tour groups to Kakadu, and Katharine gorge among other possibilities. Would anyone (including SallyinSeattle) like to weigh in with thoughts on this? All opinions gratefully accepted Thanks, Sharon

Melnq8

nevermind -

Tassie is beautiful and definitely on the quiet side - one of many reasons I like it so much! You really can't go wrong in TAS, but as previously mentioned, August/September could be chilly.

Looks like you're in good hands with all the suggestions here, but if you need more specific info on TAS, I might be able to help.

SnRSeattle

Nevermind, re the upgrades: it was just lucky things happening in the lucky country! We got upgrades all over the place, but we would have still loved every minute even without. We aren't counting on it for our upcoming trip! We got the first class with frequent flyer points, too, have been saving up for a while, plus my trips to visit my one grandchild in LA have helped us along, too. I have my own Visa and we pay bills with it, so we both earned enough for the 1st class.

Stamiya, it depends if you are "tour people or "not tour people" I think. We like going at our own pace and taking tours that interest us along the way. We took the Yellow Water tour and stayed at Jabiru in a "cabin" in a camping park (it was actually a portable type trailer with AC and the tiniest bathroom you can imagine, but fine). I think I would stay at the Yellow Water place if I had it to do over so we could go on the dawn tour of the Yellow Water, although our tour at about 9:30 was great. We couldn't go on the dawn tour because we would have had to drive before sun up which the insurance wouldn't cover if we had an accident. We loved the Aborigine art sites there and took a ranger tour of one (Ubir) and tagged on to a guided tour at the other one. Some tours take you into Arnhem Land which would be very cool, IMHO, but we couldn't go because you have to get permission from the Aborigine groups that own it. A tour would give you more info and get you more places, but no tour lets you do exactly what you want. A trade off. Oh, I just remembered that the campground we stayed at had ranger talks under the stars (and there WERE some stars!!!) which were very interesting. Here's the Kakadu website: http://www.environment.gov.au/parks/kakadu/

Nevermind, I just reread your original post and re your questions about the different islands: I don't have first hand knowledge of any but we really wanted to stay on an island and found that the only one we could afford that had the amenities we wanted was Heron, and it is a bird sanctuary and I am allergic to birds, so that was out. We are going on the Spirit of Freedom, which if you aren't avid snorkelers, I wouldn't recommend since it is a dive boat and mostly cater to them, although I have read that they also are nice to snorkelers, but don't necessarily focus on them. You might want to repost asking just about the islands in your subject and people who have been to them can answer. Also, do a search on each one you are interested in (that's what I did) and there are lots of posts on quite a few of them. We did do a one day fly in trip to Lizard Island which was a highlight of our trip of highlights. The snorkeling was FANTASTIC and the view of the reef on the way up and the view of the coastline with the sun going down on the way back were memories to keep us for a lifetime. They were that good. Check that trip out at www.daintreeair.com

I seem to be really longwinded here, so if you want you can email me swswash at yahoo dot com.
Sally in Seattle

chimani

Hello all,

I just have to chime in here about the self drive thing.

You asked, nevermind, why I didn't think it was a good idea to hire a car in the Centre.

So - here goes. My opinion has nothing to do with the risk of hitting animals at night - it's a very valid point. If you do drive, and at night, drive slowly! It nowt at all to do with the difficulties of driving on the "wrong side of the road" - cos from my experience experienced drivers get used to that pretty quickly.

It has absolutely everything to do with your experience of being there.

Driving up in the NT or around the Alice is not hard - no motorways to negotiate; no traffic lights - you sort of have the road to yourselves.

So you drive 100, 200km - whater, 300 km with0utfmmhourpf , not iattiatus

chimani

.. continued.

Yes - so you drive. But what do you see?

Honestly - and I wouldn't keep on about this if I didn't think it was true.

What you see is a strange landscape - at some times of the year you will see flowers. At others, or in a drought year, it is just mile after mile of bush.

But there is stuff there. However, you won't see it. In the Centre you won't see the lizard or the snake. You will just drive straight by. In Kakadu you won't see the lizard or the snake either - and you'll look at the trees (sort of) but you won't ever find out if they have a use.

I speak as an outsider who knew a bit about Australia - history; natural resources; system of government, etc, before I got there. And the platypus and the kangaroo, etc.

What I didn't know was that the flora have stories; the landscape lives.

If you drive yourself in places like Kakadu and Uluru you trade independence for the opportunity to learn.

Driving around in Tassie is Ok and the way to go.

Bokhara

Nevermind: My 2 cents worth (as an Australian who has been to Kakadu, Litchfield, Katherine etc) .... take a small tour. You CAN drive yourself, and look around, but you will not see a tenth of what you'll see/experience with a good guide. It's a subtle landscape and it takes someone who understands it's nuances to show its treasures. Just my 2 cents worth. And, I'm not a "tour" person by any means.

nevermind

stamiya, I'm glad you chimed in with your questions. The more info we get the better!! Please feel free to continue - don't feel as though you are hijacking the thread!

I truly appreciate the comments you are all making. The decision of hiring a car vs. other modes of transportation is a critical one and the point about missing much due to the "distraction" of driving is very insightful and gives us something else to consider.

We will look into some guided tours or private tours this weekend. Any suggestions? I understand that Australia has subtleties that would be lost on us without the help of a guide.

Again, thank you all so much. This weekend will be devoted to planning.

Bokhara

I used Billy Can tours www.billycan.com.au and thought they were great. Friends are going with them in August and they'll just have 4 or 5 of them in a 4wd for, I think, 2-3 days. Will check for you.

I'd strongly favour self-drive for all the reasons of independence, flexibility etc., except in areas like Kakadu where the benefit of a specialist's knowledge adds so much.

avagee

Definitely definitely go snorkelling on the reef. Its probably the best reef in the world and it would be a shame to miss it having come so far. I'm only an average swimmer (who rarely swims) and never snorkelled before - i was a bit worried when i went out on a reef snorkelling trip but the waters are so calm over the reef even in the middle of the ocean. Swimming skill required was next to zero. A glass bottom boat is nice but to be in the water with all those spectacular fish and coral is just too amazing for words. Do it. Do it. Do it.
ps Palm Cove on the way up from Cairns towards Port Douglas is also a very nice, peaceful spot to spend some time relaxing. Have a great trip.