Hi JamesA - absolutely agree you re. the European package holidaymakers. More fool them! With fixed itineraries/stays, unlikely to be posting on this board though and will remain uneducated as to the wonder of the rest of thailand

See, I knew this would raise a good topic of discussion! ;-)

I am always surprised when a poster says if you go to Thailands beaches, you are NOT experiencing the REAL Thailand. IMHO, if it is in Thailand, it is the REAL Thailand!

We had originally considered going to a nice quiet beach on the south end of Phuket (Nai Harn) but have decided to skip Phuket altogether. Mass crowds of tour package folks just don't appeal to me. Those folks aren't "travellers" they are "vacationers".

We are also now going to spend 7 nights in Bangkok (still not cutting out beach time!). I know when we were in Istanbul in June we regretted only spending 6 nights there. We could have used an extra week! Big cities deserve more exploration.

We do plan on having clothes made. From what I have read here that can be done in as little as 4 days, right?

Lyndie, thanks for suggesting Sri Lanka! That has peaked my interest so I am going to consider that form my next overseas trip!

Eur0-- yes you can have clothes made in 4 days but the longer you give the tailors the happier you will be/ I would suggest starting the clothes the first day you are there.

I think when we say phuket isn't the "real" thailand we mean it in the same way as saying that Disneyworld isn't the real america.

Fiona, you expressed my sentiments exactly. Tell me, folks, is the Pen (so much beloved on this site) the "real" Thailand?

James and Bella

I can well understand what you mean about some European holidaymakers not seeing the REAL Thailand - I often see posts on the Europe forum from American tourists going to the "Greek Islands" and they invariably ask about Santorini, Naxos, Mykonos, etc and I think to myself that if only they realised that there's more to Greece than the well-beaten American tourist route around the Cyclades, they might actually see something of the real Greece.

However, I'm hoping to go to Thailand for about 3 weeks sometime within the next 18 months and, although I wouldn't dream of going to an AI resort and want to see something of Bangkok and maybe another city, I'm planning plenty of beach time into the trip. Mainly because it will probably be the only opportunity I get to relax on a beach and soak up the sun that year and that's one of the things that I like to do on holiday, as well as soaking up some of the local culture.

So please don't be too hard on the "european package tourists". For us, SEA can be a relatively cheap means of grabbing a couple of weeks in the sun and we might even get to experience a different culture whilst we're at it. Also a "package holiday" usually means something different to Europeans than it seems to mean to Americans. In Europe, most package holidays include just the flights and accommodation and after that you're free to do whatever and wherever you please, without being tied to any set tours and rigid itineraries.

I once participated in a training for volunteers going to the third world for a few months. I remember the trainer saying that in order to get to know the country and its people -- do what you like to do at home as long as it's something that puts you in contact with locals. He said he always finds a pool hall. Others like to shop. If you talk and intereact with locals other than to just say please, how muchy and thank you, you're learning about the country,

CFW and Fiona, those are my thoughts as well. I think the average Thai family probably spends more time on a Thai beach than they do at the Pen, the Marriott and the Oriental. I am sure that they also probably dine more often at a beach side vendor cart than they do at the Bed Supper Club or the restaurants at any of those hotels.

BTW, I HATE that damn Marriott Pop up the covers half the screen when you are trying to post a message! Talk about annoying!

Let's face it, even those who visit BKK yearly are all just tourists. None of us, except perhaps James A and a very small number of others who actually live in Thailand, can say what the "real Thailand" is.... And Gloria, Disneyland is most definately a reflection of a slice of American culture, whether you like it or not. What is the "real America," Nantucket or a honkey tonk beach on the Jersey shore. Manhattan or a small Kansas town? What is the "real Thailand"? Go and experience what you like and see for yourself the smorgasbord (now that's a mixed metaphor!) that Thailand has to offer, which is why so many different types of people with different likes and interest love it.

Why do we travel? I think that’s really the question this gets down to.

To some people Thailand’s beaches are a cheap vacation – and that’s all they want. They can get sun and water and stay in a nice places and eat good food for much less than it costs them to stay at a mediocre place at home. Those people will go wherever they go, the beach, Bali, Bangkok, the Greek Islands, Mexico, and will miss any flavor of the culture. They might as well stay at home – except this is cheaper, more novel, and has an exotic tone to it. There is nothing inherently wrong in this, though these are the people most likely to offend the locals with inappropriate dress and behavior. As long as they behave ok, their presence brings in tourist money to an area.

I was stunned to read a post on the thread about the latest Bali bombings that was a rant about how the Indonesians hate Westerners and there is no reason to go to Bali anyway, it’s just a cheap holiday. I expect that others here were as amazed at that attitude as I was. For those of us who come half way around the world to experience Bali’s unique culture, calling it a cheap holiday is missing the point entirely. But to some subset to Australians, that’s what Bali represent to them (just like for some subset of Americans Mexico is just a cheap holiday “but why don’t those people speak better English?”). So there can certainly be an ugly side to this approach, but most “package tourists” come and spend their money and appreciate the sun and relaxation.

If someone is posting for trip advice on this board, I assume that they want something more from their holiday – some understanding of the people and the culture, a chance to view the world from a different perspective. That means visiting more than resorts. Yes, one can insulate oneself pretty effectively in Bangkok, but it’s harder to avoid contact with the day to day activities of the local populace in a big city than it is at a resort. Yes, talking with workers at a resort or the beach vendors gives you more of a glimpse of the culture than not talking with them, but I would maintain that the “beach culture” of a resort area anywhere is a special subset that doesn’t necessarily reflect much of the larger culture. That’s why I respond by suggesting more time in Bangkok (or Hanoi or wherever) when someone posts a proposed itinerary that skips or slights major cultural sites.

I’m not arguing against having relaxation time. Indeed, I believe it’s important to rest and to have the time to absorb new experiences. I always make sure I’ve scheduled in some relaxation time, whether it’s a day of spa or a few days at the beach. But if ALL I wanted was relaxation, I’d do something closer to home.

Thanks for posting this thought-provoking question, Eurotraveller

Kathie-- and outstanding response. Agree 100%.

Hmm..
I am a little disappointed with your post Kathie- sorry!
Perhaps it is just me reading it wrong. Someone who wants a beach resort doesn't have to only want it because it is cheap and sounds exotic!They don't have to offend the locals by dressing inappropriately. They can talk to locals there. Who is to say that the locals there are less Thai than city dwellers? Why can't you go to the beach resort but also go on trips beyond the beach?
I agree with what you said about Bali- that post annoyed the hell out of me as well. I spent a while on a beach there as well by the way. During that time I watched the locals fishing, repairing boats, selling their goods. I saw the Hindhu shrines on the beach and watched the ladies going round with their offerings. I watched the local children flying their handmade kites. I also hired a local driver who took us round the island and told us all about daily life.
I'd hate to think that just because I like time on a beach I am somehow inferior to others.
Sorry if I have picked you up wrong.

fiona, I guess I didn't fully communicate what I wanted to if you thought I was saying going to a beach meant all that. That's one of the hazards of posting - it doesn't communicate as fully and clearly as we'd like, and there is always the risk of misunderstanding especially across cultures.

I'm saying that I expect the travelers who post on this board are asking questions because they want more than a cheap beach vacation. That doesn't mean that enjoying a beach means you aren't interested in culture. But if you are interested in culture, you'll want MORE than a stay at the beach.

now can we get back to harmony???

Hi Xenos - I am European (British) so completely understand that you can put together a package where you are stopping in various places around Thailand as well as the beach. If you read my earlier post, I put in a plea for others to be gentler with regards to the beach plans of the Europeans! We are going for 5 weeks (including our wedding) next summer and are planning to spend 3 out of the 5 weeks on various islands. This is probably more than we would normally spend there (this is our 6th extended trip) but we have a small toddler who we need to think of - the cultural and anthropological sites we would love to visit this time round are simply not suitable for her. Also, we love diving and snorkelling so will be getting some time in down in the deep whilst we are there.

The type of packages I was talking about were the ones that I am sure you will have seen advertised, where you go for 10 days to the beach and that is it. Certainly, from the UK, these do attract SOME who may as well have a blindfold on. If you are living in Greece, you may well have heard about the delightful (not!) behaviour of my fellow Brits in your country too. I'm truly sorry if I caused any offence to you, I really didn't mean too.

B

Kathie
Phewww!Glad I was wrong! I know what you mean about posts. I wish we had an edit button here!

Sorry, Kathie, maybe I'm just feeling cranky today, but I think the attitude that came across in your posts is a little self-righteous -- as if people who enjoy a beach resort are not interested in the culture of the place they visit. On the contrary it seems as if Eurotraveller and others are very much interested in seeing much more than just American-style hotels (like the ROS special towers rooms that you like so much) and western restaurants. And what about those who seem to spend time at the the pools of their western-style hotels in BKK -- are they experiencing the culture of the place they are visiting? And those of who so highly recommend the Italian restaurants in BKK, which I could never understand. Why go to Thailand to eat Italian cuisine? But, if that's what they enjoy -- hey, it's their vacation -- yes, it is a vacation not a cultural exchange as some of you would like to pretend. The point is, people who stay in glass houses (or should I say glass hotel towers) shouldn't throw stones. Well, this does sound like a rant, but I'll end with a positive note by saying that of all the posters on this topic Gloria and GPanda seem to have been most straightforward about their own interests, likes and dislikes, and not so judgmental about others.

rhkkmk!

The beaches of New England? You must be kidding.

How could you go to Phuket and not see a decent beach? You must have stayed in Phuket Town. Kata and Karon beaches are among the best Thailand has to offer and Patong would be too if it wasn't for all those darned tourists.

Mind you, I am not a great fan of Thai beaches myself, as I demand surf, and, forgetting the glorious beaches of my homeland, about the only place you get that in SE Asia is Bali. But I am also a beach runner and for this activity Thai beaches are great. So take up jogging and you will get a new perspective on Thailand.

Harzer

Oh, and I forgot SJ Jewelers -- another true Thai cultural experience, I suppose... Don't get me wrong, I also enjoyed shopping for jewelry in BKK & will when I am there again, but that is again something that is more for tourists than local Thais... and trying to portray yourself as someone who truly experiences the local culture while criticizing others who go to the beach or do so many other things that you may have never tried rings a little hollow.

Why do some people always have to take things personally on this forum?

i think using the word "critize" is a bit harsh....
bob, kathie, james, gpanda,orgy and all the other regular contributors to this
forum have been awesome to us "newbies".
my first trip to thailand, cambodia and myanmar would not have been nearly as enjoyable without these folks helpful information.

each person has their favorite places to go, restaurants, shopping suggestions and towns...we are all biased on what we individually like and dislike...and we make our own decisions as to cities to visit, sightseeing and whether to go to certain countries or beaches....

i live on maui...work near the beach and watch people spend their entire holiday sitting by the pool or on a lounger by the beach....and they could have saved themselves thousands of dollars by going to san diego. you need to get off your duff to experience local culture...and this includes dining your way across asia...wats, shopping, treks, beaches, museums. all of these things give us the opportunity to savor thailand...even if you stay in a major hotel...bangkok is amazing...
thailand is the most incredible place with something for everyone....

and thank you bob...and kathie...for all your incredible information and for sharing it with us. keep it up...