Tiger Temple Kanchanaburi - Avoid
Jan 23rd, 2008, 07:51 AM
#41
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Still waiting on some hard and fast evidence about the Tiger Temple in Kanchanaburi...not Malaysia or Palmdale.
BTW--I've never been, so I have nothing to gain or lose from this. In fact, reading this thread makes me want to go more than ever
BTW--I've never been, so I have nothing to gain or lose from this. In fact, reading this thread makes me want to go more than ever
Jan 29th, 2008, 04:32 AM
#42
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TravelTwiddle gave a very comprehensive, and believable, assessment of the Tiger temple in Katchamburi.
I just returned from Thailand and we did go to the temple with a guide. While there I had very mixed feelings about the care of the tigers and one, poor lonely bear, who was in an isolated, empty cage with absolutely nothing to do and no other animal contacts. However, I thought the tigers were more shagged out from the afternoon heat than from drugs.
And, it is disturbing to think that holy men mistreat these animals.
That being said, there are a lot of animals at this temple, and without tourists' financial support, they would all starve to death.
So, this is not a perfect world and, without some kind of sanctuary, there would be no tigers at all.
I just returned from Thailand and we did go to the temple with a guide. While there I had very mixed feelings about the care of the tigers and one, poor lonely bear, who was in an isolated, empty cage with absolutely nothing to do and no other animal contacts. However, I thought the tigers were more shagged out from the afternoon heat than from drugs.
And, it is disturbing to think that holy men mistreat these animals.
That being said, there are a lot of animals at this temple, and without tourists' financial support, they would all starve to death.
So, this is not a perfect world and, without some kind of sanctuary, there would be no tigers at all.
Jan 29th, 2008, 07:31 AM
#43
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Here's my two cents worth:
bushchick apparently went with the intention of getting close to the tigers, probably thinking that a volunteer would be allowed to handle the tigers. When prevented from doing so - for her own safety - she proceeded to list everything that she found wrong with the "sanctuary", judging it to fail by the highest standards of the wealthiest countries.
She starts out with fighting words : "the animal cruelty and abuse at the Temple was blatant and obvious..." Them be fighting words.
Then she goes on to list the "captive animals" - goats, cows, horses, chickens, water buffalo, deer, wild boar, and peacocks. I thought lots of humankind keep "captive" animals such as these, not just the Temple! Except of course for the wild boar.
At every turn when the tigers, even the baby ones, are kept away from her as a volunteer, she protests their treatment.
The truth really falls somewhere in-between. These animals are being cared for in the best way the Thais know how. Don't judge them by Western standards, especially not by a "volunteer" who stayed only 4 days out of a planned 4 weeks and came out with a scathing criticism of how others treat wild life.
bushchick apparently went with the intention of getting close to the tigers, probably thinking that a volunteer would be allowed to handle the tigers. When prevented from doing so - for her own safety - she proceeded to list everything that she found wrong with the "sanctuary", judging it to fail by the highest standards of the wealthiest countries.
She starts out with fighting words : "the animal cruelty and abuse at the Temple was blatant and obvious..." Them be fighting words.
Then she goes on to list the "captive animals" - goats, cows, horses, chickens, water buffalo, deer, wild boar, and peacocks. I thought lots of humankind keep "captive" animals such as these, not just the Temple! Except of course for the wild boar.
At every turn when the tigers, even the baby ones, are kept away from her as a volunteer, she protests their treatment.
The truth really falls somewhere in-between. These animals are being cared for in the best way the Thais know how. Don't judge them by Western standards, especially not by a "volunteer" who stayed only 4 days out of a planned 4 weeks and came out with a scathing criticism of how others treat wild life.
Feb 14th, 2008, 02:29 PM
#44
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I was a volunteer at the Tiger Temple in Kanchanaburi for four weeks in mid-2007, and feel I may be able to contribute some relevant information. This is my first post to this site, however I stumbled across this nest of similar threads on other sites over the past 24 hours, read them with growing concern, and felt moved to provide a different insider's perspective.
I visited the temple as a tourist in late 2005 and found it an amazing experience, so much so that I applied to become a volunteer 18 months later. My experiences, and my perception of the Temple and how it is run, were clearly different to that of others. Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed my time there, and thought that it was generally well run and the majority of the staff were competent and doing the best they could with what they have. Many of my greatest frustrations came from the tourists and other volunteers rather than the staff.
Don't go to the temple expecting what you saw on the TV documentaries. These were made several years ago when the temple was struggling to feed and maintain the 7 or 8 tigers that had been dropped in their lap, and much has changed in the interim. Allowing tourists to come and interact with the tigers and take photos became something of a necessary evil, and unfortunately the increased trade generated by the documentaries has created traffic that now precludes the laid back experience it once was.
Are the staff sometimes rough with the tigers? Yes; but no worse than I've seen at dog shows, obedience trials and at pedigree breeding kennels in major Australian cities. Likewise the size of the cages. The newer cages at the back of the facility (away from the tourists) are considerably larger, airier and cooler. The punters expect to see tigers, it's what they've paid for, and it's what keeps the tigers fed, staff paid, and construction ongoing. The only cages in which to house tigers for tourists to see are the older, smaller ones, which are on a par with what I saw at London, Melbourne and Taronga Park zoos in the 60s and 70s. By what I've seen of Asian standards of animal care generally, these tigers are spoiled rotten.
This place was never intended to be a 'tourists interact with animals' facility (label it as you will), it was, and is, primarily a forest monastery for Buddhist monks. The cure has now, in many ways, become worse than the disease. The staff are primarily local kids, late teens to early twenties, from the surrounding rural area, and taught by the more experienced. It appears to have been a matter of learning as much as they can as quickly as they can, and it is a 'school of hard knocks'. As with every other workplace I've experienced over the past 30 years, there were some great people, a lot of good people, and a few jerks. C'est la vie.
This is not the best conservation project in the world. Knowledge has been gained on the run, and it will be a very long time, if ever, that the Tiger Temple are able to return tigers to the wild. To the best of my knowledge, this has never been achieved successfully by anyone, anywhere in the world. What will hopefully happen is that, over the next few years, the upgraded facilities will be completed.
It is an amazing experience for the great majority of tourists who go there. But you can't please everyone. Some are disappointed there is no 'show', others think it's exploitative (and the lines that individuals draw regarding this appear to be well entrenched and not open to persuasion)...many think it's cruel for the tigers to be in the sun, although the cats always had a lot more shade than I did...
In four weeks I saw no evidence that the tigers are drugged. None. Zip. I looked. Notwithstanding that the tigers are hand reared, and that
Volunteers are drawn from a mixed bag of applicants, and primarily as a result of irresponsible behaviour by volunteers once too often, they are now far more restricted in what they can do. Given the grief that some previous volunteers have generated, it is striking that the Abbott maintains that exposing farangs to what the temple is doing behind the scenes will spread the word that many of the rumours are unfounded or the result of skewed perceptions. In four weeks, I was never restricted from accessing any part of the grounds at any time.
A day trip from Bangkok is probably the worst way to see the Temple. It's a long, hot drive, and you'll generally be whisked through far too quickly. My suggestion would be to bus up to Kanchanaburi town, book into one of the great guesthouses, check out the Bridge and some of the other things on offer; and either take the bus or a taxi to the temple so you can spend enough time to let the crowds thin out. If you are going to go with a tour guide, try and ensure you get there before 1230, and that your guide will allow you to stay there for at least an hour.
That's my two bob's worth; I hope it's been useful to some of you.
I visited the temple as a tourist in late 2005 and found it an amazing experience, so much so that I applied to become a volunteer 18 months later. My experiences, and my perception of the Temple and how it is run, were clearly different to that of others. Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed my time there, and thought that it was generally well run and the majority of the staff were competent and doing the best they could with what they have. Many of my greatest frustrations came from the tourists and other volunteers rather than the staff.
Don't go to the temple expecting what you saw on the TV documentaries. These were made several years ago when the temple was struggling to feed and maintain the 7 or 8 tigers that had been dropped in their lap, and much has changed in the interim. Allowing tourists to come and interact with the tigers and take photos became something of a necessary evil, and unfortunately the increased trade generated by the documentaries has created traffic that now precludes the laid back experience it once was.
Are the staff sometimes rough with the tigers? Yes; but no worse than I've seen at dog shows, obedience trials and at pedigree breeding kennels in major Australian cities. Likewise the size of the cages. The newer cages at the back of the facility (away from the tourists) are considerably larger, airier and cooler. The punters expect to see tigers, it's what they've paid for, and it's what keeps the tigers fed, staff paid, and construction ongoing. The only cages in which to house tigers for tourists to see are the older, smaller ones, which are on a par with what I saw at London, Melbourne and Taronga Park zoos in the 60s and 70s. By what I've seen of Asian standards of animal care generally, these tigers are spoiled rotten.
This place was never intended to be a 'tourists interact with animals' facility (label it as you will), it was, and is, primarily a forest monastery for Buddhist monks. The cure has now, in many ways, become worse than the disease. The staff are primarily local kids, late teens to early twenties, from the surrounding rural area, and taught by the more experienced. It appears to have been a matter of learning as much as they can as quickly as they can, and it is a 'school of hard knocks'. As with every other workplace I've experienced over the past 30 years, there were some great people, a lot of good people, and a few jerks. C'est la vie.
This is not the best conservation project in the world. Knowledge has been gained on the run, and it will be a very long time, if ever, that the Tiger Temple are able to return tigers to the wild. To the best of my knowledge, this has never been achieved successfully by anyone, anywhere in the world. What will hopefully happen is that, over the next few years, the upgraded facilities will be completed.
It is an amazing experience for the great majority of tourists who go there. But you can't please everyone. Some are disappointed there is no 'show', others think it's exploitative (and the lines that individuals draw regarding this appear to be well entrenched and not open to persuasion)...many think it's cruel for the tigers to be in the sun, although the cats always had a lot more shade than I did...
In four weeks I saw no evidence that the tigers are drugged. None. Zip. I looked. Notwithstanding that the tigers are hand reared, and that
Volunteers are drawn from a mixed bag of applicants, and primarily as a result of irresponsible behaviour by volunteers once too often, they are now far more restricted in what they can do. Given the grief that some previous volunteers have generated, it is striking that the Abbott maintains that exposing farangs to what the temple is doing behind the scenes will spread the word that many of the rumours are unfounded or the result of skewed perceptions. In four weeks, I was never restricted from accessing any part of the grounds at any time.
A day trip from Bangkok is probably the worst way to see the Temple. It's a long, hot drive, and you'll generally be whisked through far too quickly. My suggestion would be to bus up to Kanchanaburi town, book into one of the great guesthouses, check out the Bridge and some of the other things on offer; and either take the bus or a taxi to the temple so you can spend enough time to let the crowds thin out. If you are going to go with a tour guide, try and ensure you get there before 1230, and that your guide will allow you to stay there for at least an hour.
That's my two bob's worth; I hope it's been useful to some of you.
Feb 14th, 2008, 03:57 PM
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My apologies, but the end of my paragraph regarding the alleged drugging of the tigers somehow disappeared into the ether; here's the rest, for what it's worth -
Notwithstanding that the tigers are hand reared and that, like most primary predators, tigers sleep for 20 hours or more out of 24, the logistics alone of untrained staff sedating the same streak of tigers every day in precisely the right amount would be staggering...and without ever once being caught on camera by a tourist or a nosy volunteer? The tablets they are given in the canyon are milk tablets; treats. I know, I ate them. They're delicious.
Jack
Notwithstanding that the tigers are hand reared and that, like most primary predators, tigers sleep for 20 hours or more out of 24, the logistics alone of untrained staff sedating the same streak of tigers every day in precisely the right amount would be staggering...and without ever once being caught on camera by a tourist or a nosy volunteer? The tablets they are given in the canyon are milk tablets; treats. I know, I ate them. They're delicious.
Jack
Feb 14th, 2008, 05:09 PM
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Jack, thanks so much for coming and giving your first hand experience.
I think it's good to hear both sides of the story.
Your story is very much in line with what I witnessed there and what I heard from our guide Tong who goes many times per week, every week.
It's not perfect, but they do the best with what they have. I hope to see improvement there in the future with the new areas being built for the tigers.
Don't be surprised if you get some flack here as this was your first post and people tend to get suspicious of that. Stay around and answer some other questions about Thailand if you can since you seem to have spent some time there.
I think it's good to hear both sides of the story.
Your story is very much in line with what I witnessed there and what I heard from our guide Tong who goes many times per week, every week.
It's not perfect, but they do the best with what they have. I hope to see improvement there in the future with the new areas being built for the tigers.
Don't be surprised if you get some flack here as this was your first post and people tend to get suspicious of that. Stay around and answer some other questions about Thailand if you can since you seem to have spent some time there.
Feb 16th, 2008, 06:46 AM
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Wow. Thanks so much Jack. I had very mixed feeling about our day with the tigers so now I can assure all who thought I was very brave, that the tigers were not drugged. However, when one of the tigers yawned, it appeared that she/he had no teeth. Any explanation on that? do they yank them out???
Feb 16th, 2008, 07:28 AM
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I've done some more research and it seems that tourists generally think the place is wonderful as evidenced by this forum. But there are many other animal welfare and veterinarians that I have talked to who have serious concerns. Some like bushchick say that have seen abuses. Others say that there is no way a tiger should EVER be allowed near people the way they do it without being drugged. I think everyone has to make their own decision as to whether they want to go or not. There does not seem to be a definitive answer. I, for one, have decided that I will not go.
Feb 16th, 2008, 08:23 AM
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To annergiser; I'm as sure as I can be that all the tigers have a full set of very large teeth. I used to hand feed roast chicken to the tigers in the 'front' cages, next to the tourist assembly area, every afternoon after they had walked back from the canyon. I know that they all had teeth - and very sharp claws - because they would bare them at me if I didn't distribute the chicken quickly enough. I frequently pointed out to any tourists that these feisty, growling, pacing tigers were in fact the very same cats that had been drowsing in the sun 20 minutes before. In the interests of science, I also used to eat some of the roast chicken to demonstrate that it wasn't pumped full of some kind of antidote. It was even more delicious than the large white milk tablets that we'd feed them in the canyon.
To glorialf; I understand and support your decision not to go. It is not an experience for everyone, and I am aware that some people do have concerns about the way the whole 'touch the tigers' experience has evolved.
I can also understand the concerns of some of the welfare organisations and some individuals who claim to be qualified; although, to be honest, from what I've read on most websites recently, many of their opinions have been based, again, on rumour and assumption. To me, this reflects more on the individual than it does on the temple.
The Tiger Temple has some issues that bear improvement, I won't disagree with that; but there is an alarming amount of myth, rumour and supposition that is being presented across the internet as fact, and seeking to bring about a more accurate and balanced view, so that people like yourself can make a more objective decision, has been my primary motivation in writing to this forum and others.
To glorialf; I understand and support your decision not to go. It is not an experience for everyone, and I am aware that some people do have concerns about the way the whole 'touch the tigers' experience has evolved.
I can also understand the concerns of some of the welfare organisations and some individuals who claim to be qualified; although, to be honest, from what I've read on most websites recently, many of their opinions have been based, again, on rumour and assumption. To me, this reflects more on the individual than it does on the temple.
The Tiger Temple has some issues that bear improvement, I won't disagree with that; but there is an alarming amount of myth, rumour and supposition that is being presented across the internet as fact, and seeking to bring about a more accurate and balanced view, so that people like yourself can make a more objective decision, has been my primary motivation in writing to this forum and others.
Feb 16th, 2008, 09:51 PM
#51
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Again, makes me wonder about really who these first time contributors are.....I know we all want to believe them but sometimes their stories come at just that right time and they say just the right thing to prove their point trying to sway a story or opinion.....It's as if someone is watching and posting to sway opinion????
I have noticed that a lot of those first time posters always seems to be Thailand oriented, professional guides and extremely knowledgeable in whatever subject is being discussed. Where are they when we Fodorites are asking for help planning our trips??? How come they only come out when a negative situation on Thailand is reported????? And how come only on Thailand??? And how come none of them ever post on another thread again???
Does not make any sense to me, well it does but....
Just an observation....don't mean to step on any toes.
Aloha!
I have noticed that a lot of those first time posters always seems to be Thailand oriented, professional guides and extremely knowledgeable in whatever subject is being discussed. Where are they when we Fodorites are asking for help planning our trips??? How come they only come out when a negative situation on Thailand is reported????? And how come only on Thailand??? And how come none of them ever post on another thread again???
Does not make any sense to me, well it does but....
Just an observation....don't mean to step on any toes.
Aloha!
Feb 17th, 2008, 05:24 AM
#52
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I had the same thought. But they could be people who are passionate about an issue or a place rather than the country itself. However, most important is for all of us to remember that we need to think for ourselves. And that's true whether it's the tiger temple, a hotel or a restaurant or even a country. We can read and listen to all the points of view and then we need to decide what to do on our own. In most cases there is no right or wrong answer. Right now we really don't know for sure whether the tiger temple is a wonderful place or not. Different people say different things so people like myself who have not seen it first hand need to take all those points of view and decided for themselves whether they want to go or not.
Feb 17th, 2008, 08:08 AM
#53
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i guess i do not understand what the harm would be in going to such a place????? how else would you have an informed point of view?? you can read and research until you are blue in the face, but without first hand observations i do not feel you could have a clear opinion or view...
Feb 17th, 2008, 11:14 AM
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Bob-- I don't go to zoos in america or anywhere else. I have not gone to this in the past because I didn't want to. The only reason I even considered it for the trip I just postponed was because my friend wanted to go and I was convinced that no abuse was taking place. Now that I am less sure about the abuse and since my "new" trip will be done to please me rather than someone else, I'll go back to my "no need to go" attitude. As for seeing it first hand and thus finding out "for sure" -- I think that is probably impossible for the average tourist. At best it would just be another opinion. Frankly, I can think of a whole lot of things I'd rather do with my time and money in bangkok. ve
Feb 17th, 2008, 11:59 AM
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My family and I just returned from Thailand. We spent a wonderful day in the Tiger Temple with TONG. I'm sorry to read your report, but I still believe The Tiger Temple have all the good intentions treating the animals there. Of course it is not the perfect place for all those animals, but where are the long gone forests men destroyed? I know it is strange to pay to get in the temple and again,to take pictures with the tigers, but would there be any other way to feed all those animals without the tourists'help?
For all the fodorites who were lucky to know TONG like we were will agree me with me with this:
I have never known a person who loves more the animals than Tong does! I am quite sure that if she knew anything was wrong about the way the monks treated the animals, she would never return there!
As I love the animals too, I really and deeply hope you, Bushchick are wrong.
For all the fodorites who were lucky to know TONG like we were will agree me with me with this:
I have never known a person who loves more the animals than Tong does! I am quite sure that if she knew anything was wrong about the way the monks treated the animals, she would never return there!
As I love the animals too, I really and deeply hope you, Bushchick are wrong.
Feb 17th, 2008, 02:23 PM
#56
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I visited the tiger temple last year and like others found it an amazing experience. It was hot, very hot and the tigers like us were pretty lethargic. I do not condone abuse of animals in any way but after living in different parts of the world you should be careful of comparing "western standards" to other parts of the world.
I would hope that somewhere in this shrinking world there are some experts who would like to get involved in helping the temple improve the living conditions for the tigers.
Sometimes it takes an "up close" experience for people to really appreciate the worlds wonder animals, tigers are endangered everywhere. If nothing else lets hope the debate and the experience raises peoples awareness of these wonderful creatures.
I would hope that somewhere in this shrinking world there are some experts who would like to get involved in helping the temple improve the living conditions for the tigers.
Sometimes it takes an "up close" experience for people to really appreciate the worlds wonder animals, tigers are endangered everywhere. If nothing else lets hope the debate and the experience raises peoples awareness of these wonderful creatures.
Feb 18th, 2008, 03:56 AM
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I was just at Tiger Temple last week. I do hope they aren't abusing the animals but I didn't see signs of it. A lot of construction seemed to be happening making larger caged areas and an office building nearby? Not sure. As far as abuse, one volunteer had a baby cub letting people take turns petting it. One tourist was a bit of a prankster and the volunteer actually said out loud that he would not allow the guy to pet the tiger. He said "If you don't respect other people around you, I don't expect you to respect the baby tiger either ... so no, you cannot pet the tiger." It was true, the guy was a bit of an ass but I was struck by his message and protection of the cub.
Jun 20th, 2008, 11:21 PM
#58
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Over the past 6 months, since posting this report, I have had a number of Fodorites contact me directly for more information about my allegations of abuse at the Temple. Mainly people who didn't want to get embroiled in this messy thread, and obviously all people who are genuinely interested in the story as opposed to soap boxing on this site. So, to these people, below are some links you will probably be interested in.
National Geographic News
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...er-temple.html
Tiger Temple- Illegal Wildlife Trafficking, Animal Cruelty and Tourist Safety Risks
http://www.careforthewild.com/news.a...on=Latest+News
Download report here:
http://www.careforthewild.com/projec...mypage=Reports
Video footage on YouTube-
Tiger Temple/ Animal Cruelty -1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl54RliBgGc
Tiger Temple/ Animal Cruelty, Moving with Force- 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41izUzo25u4
Tiger Temple/ Aggressive Tigers - 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpLFmE9LReA
Tiger Temple/ Injured Tiger- 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEZhHo-ESXE
Tiger Temple/ Restrained for Photo-taking- 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G0GhDwMrFw
Tiger Temple/ Visitor Safety Risks- 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCg0Lpwbt3w
Tiger Temple/ Enclosures- 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTxOzbL7uqs
National Geographic News
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...er-temple.html
Tiger Temple- Illegal Wildlife Trafficking, Animal Cruelty and Tourist Safety Risks
http://www.careforthewild.com/news.a...on=Latest+News
Download report here:
http://www.careforthewild.com/projec...mypage=Reports
Video footage on YouTube-
Tiger Temple/ Animal Cruelty -1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl54RliBgGc
Tiger Temple/ Animal Cruelty, Moving with Force- 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41izUzo25u4
Tiger Temple/ Aggressive Tigers - 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpLFmE9LReA
Tiger Temple/ Injured Tiger- 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEZhHo-ESXE
Tiger Temple/ Restrained for Photo-taking- 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G0GhDwMrFw
Tiger Temple/ Visitor Safety Risks- 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCg0Lpwbt3w
Tiger Temple/ Enclosures- 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTxOzbL7uqs
May 22nd, 2010, 06:49 AM
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In order to revive this thread and add to bushchick's credibility:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php...5464756&ref=ts
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...the-scenes.cfm
I know that kind of hostility myself. Why should a new poster lack credibility?
It's up to everybody to read and then start researching oneself.
Some fodorites are really strange............tzzzzt
SV
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php...5464756&ref=ts
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...the-scenes.cfm
I know that kind of hostility myself. Why should a new poster lack credibility?
It's up to everybody to read and then start researching oneself.
Some fodorites are really strange............tzzzzt
SV
