Tiger Temple Kanchanaburi - Avoid

Old Jan 14th, 2008, 12:23 AM
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For some other perspective here's some more information about the Tiger Temple from other visitors. Haven't been myself.


http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntre...readID=1312512
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Old Jan 14th, 2008, 01:53 AM
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> I have a number of recognised academic reports on the treatment of the animals at the Temple.

Is there any of those reports already online somewhere?
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Old Jan 14th, 2008, 04:01 AM
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Bushchick-
This concerns me a great deal and I would definitely like to read more. I had almost decided to go to this place although I have avoided it for years because of concerns about treatment. And my gut tells me that there is something not "kosher" about it. But tong and others on this board convinced me otherwise. I hope that you will NOT be turned off to this board because of the barrage of negatives you got but will post additional information for those of us who really do want to know what's going on from your perspective so they can make some decisions. Thanks for your post
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Old Jan 14th, 2008, 06:28 AM
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Gloria, like you, I have chosen not to visit the Tiger Temple over all these years I've been going to Thailand. While I have no data on how these animals are treated, I am turned off by holding these animals in small cages for the amusement of tourists. In general, I don't visit zoos, though there are now some very good zoos worldwide that have attendde to providing appropriate habitat for animals. Personally, I'd rather see wildlife in the wild.
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Old Jan 14th, 2008, 06:45 AM
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Kathie - whilst they are kept in small cages, this is not for the amusement of tourists ... for that they are dragged down to an unsheltered canyon where they are chained to the ground for four hours for tourists who find it "touching and powerful" to have a tiger's head in their lap, or lie their children on a full grown tiger's stomach.
I do hope that a long established, card carrying Fodorite will go and spend some time at the temple (not just visit for a couple of hours in the afternoon as is all the posters on this thread seem to have done) and report back on what really goes on there.
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Old Jan 14th, 2008, 08:56 AM
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I've made the decision not to go. My friend may still want to and she can go with tong -- I can easily amuse myself in bangkok that day. I think I'll stick with my gut feeling. Thanks you VERY much, bushchick for posting this.

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Old Jan 14th, 2008, 10:15 AM
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gloria, what harm would there be in going....?? you could report back here your observations....i think it might be helpful...

bob
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Old Jan 14th, 2008, 10:34 AM
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Bob-- there would be the possibility of two kinds of harm. One -- I could be wasting my time and money on something I don't enjoy. But more important, I could get very upset. I have always found it very difficult to see animals being hurt or suffering in any way. As a child I made my father check out every book to make sure the dog didn't die at the end and if he did I wouldn't read the book (never had a problem if a human died by the way). It's why I have not been to a zoo for over 50 years. The only reason I went to the elephant conservation center was that my dog's holistic vet had spent several months there training them in various aspects of holistic veterinary practices and raved about the place. Since she spent a long time there and is a real animal expert I could trust her completely.

Actually, I just left a message for her (the vet) since I bet she knows something about the tiger temple since she spent so much time in thailand. It hadn't occured to me to ask her before but now I have. I will certainly report on what she says and if it's positive I will change my mind again and probably go.
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Old Jan 20th, 2008, 04:28 AM
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I always have to wonder about the motivation of anyone who cut and pastes the same report on one internet forum after another and who even posts the same c+p multiple times on the same forum e.g. Lonely Planet.

Tripadvisor, Travelfish, Lonely Planet Thorn Tree, Roughguides, Expedia, Fodors..

Thais don't seem to be to worried about this, the monks and the temple were on Thai TV in some doco again today, 1000 baht was the figure quoted to feed one tiger for one day.

Never been there myself, just wary of anyone who tries to do a hatchet job on a place from one side of the internet to the other that's all. If the tigers are so abused then I would have thought one of them would have eaten a monk for lunch by now.
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Old Jan 20th, 2008, 04:38 AM
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I did speak to my vet who had heard plenty of rumors of problems there when she was in thailand. She never got there herself but plenty of responsible people have said negative things about it.
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Old Jan 20th, 2008, 09:59 AM
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Zeer - the motivation for multiple postings from "one side of the internet to the other" is overt. As I say in the very first sentence "I hope that by getting this to you and a few websites I can play some minor part in providing information and hopefully doing something about stopping what is going on in the name of Buddhism and Conservation at this "Sanctuary" for wild animals – or at the very least stopping tourists from supporting this. " I thought that was pretty clear ...
Caroline ([email protected])
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Old Jan 20th, 2008, 10:03 AM
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I'm quite pleased to hear Glorialf's
vet say that "plenty of responsible people have said negative things about it". Now you guys just need a Fodorite to say something along those lines and maybe you'll start seeing the Tiger Temple for what it is. Gloria, if you need any more info, you know where to find me ...
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Old Jan 20th, 2008, 05:08 PM
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I was at the Tiger Temple with Tong in October. I am shocked at this report as the monks are a gentle people who don't beleive in viloence.This was one of the highlights of my trip to Thailand. At the San Francisco Zoo a tiger got our and killed one person and mauled 2 others-allegeded taunting. I never saw the tigers in that way-in fact it was fun to watch a baby tiger romp on a big tiger. Tong took us to her bear Mam who she has fed cookies since the bear was 5 months old and it was a joy to see such kindness in the bear.Chris
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Old Jan 20th, 2008, 06:11 PM
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I guess I'm just a bit confused as to why bushchick won't let this die. Great, you've made your point...and those of us who believe your slant won't go. Those of us, however, who feel like you're beating a dead horse wonder why this thread continues on and on with hearsay and speculation...it just reeks a bit of the 'I'm right, you're wrong' mentality.
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Old Jan 21st, 2008, 04:14 AM
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Seems to me that bushchick simply responded to a question as to why she was posing her report on multiple places. This board has "beaten to death" hotel and restaurant reviews with no problem. Whether bushchick is right or wrong she certainly has a right to voice her opinion and experience just as those who have gone to tiger temple and loved it have a right to their beliefs. As someone who has been trying to decide whether to go or not to go, I am grateful for her position as well as for those who write raves about it. Now I can make up my own mind. Hopefully the last 8 years have not completely eliminated freedom of speech and discourse in this country.
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Old Jan 21st, 2008, 08:08 AM
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Caroline-I am interested in reading any other reports you might have available concerning the Tiger Temple. Please E-mail them to me at [email protected]. Thanks.
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Old Jan 21st, 2008, 08:32 AM
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Gloria, hahaha! I think you're getting your Bushes confused. I wasn't attacking freedom of speech nor your choice to go or not. I seriously hope you're not comparing "I liked the Pen" to "the tiger temple is full of animal abuse and cruelty." One is an opinion, the other, however, is an accusation. One, albeit, with absolutely no proof from the OP. I stated before and will say again...my problem isn't the opinion--it's the lack of proof to back it up. But now that we've firmly established both sides of the coin on this, I beg to differ: the issue is, in fact, dead.
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Old Jan 21st, 2008, 08:44 AM
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Sorry, but people who post allegations about some place on one website after another will always raise a red flag for me, more so when they are a first time poster with views that seem very much at odds with what many more established contributors have experienced. Are they a passionate crusader for a just cause or someone with an axe to grind for no apparent reason, who can really tell.

I don't know how many times I've seen someone slam some hotel or tourist attraction across multiple internet travel sites and then often, eventually another side of the story emerges which may create an interesting balance, thus I'm always wary of accepting every review, good or bad as gospel. Search for Sultanahmet Suites in Istanbul on Google and you will see one example of this multiple website posting complex.

Freedom of speech should carry some responsibility with it but on the internet you can say pretty much say what you like and if it affects others financially like it must this place then what comeback does anyone have? It's not like some monks at a Thai temple are ever going to make bushchick prove her allegations anytime, are they now?

Having never been to the Tiger Temple I will try to find the time to do so in future now that Caroline has aroused my curiosity.

Just can't wait to have my picture taken with one of those cute tigers...
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Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 02:17 PM
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There's a very valid reason why BushChick would post on many other sites; to get the word out. Last summer our favorite sushi takeout place was closed, so we got sushi delivered from another place & the sushi was warm/hot & looked weird. I called, complained & they blew off the complaints. Over the next week, I went on to at least 4 restaurant review sites & slammed them & also complained to the Health Dept., who cited them.

My husband is a CA licensed RVT (registered veterinary technician) & LATG in biomedical research (with lab animals) at a prestigious hospital... he's also volunteered at the Wildlife Waystation (where ex-circus & pet) exotic cats live out their lives. Additionally, last year we had a behind-the-scenes for RVT-ALAAS members only visit to the exotic feline breeding facility in Palmdale, CA & the year before to the Santa Barbara Zoo...

I believe BushChick.

Sorry folks, but there is NO WAY that wild tigers (all tigers, even ones handraised are wild) can be allowed around strangers (tourists/volunteers) unless they are sedated.

When he volunteered at the Wildlife Waystation, none of the volunteers were allowed to feed, handle, move or walk the tigers. ONLY the specific handlers were allowed to walk them & these were large men who each had a special relationship with that tiger. I've been there when the tiger handler takes the tiger out on the chain/leash & I have been within 18" of the tiger, but there is NO WAY that anyone would ever be allowed to touch/pet the tigers and it's insane to even think about posing for a photo with a giant, powerful beast.

For the record, tigers are solitary animals. Tigers do not like other animals, other tigers... they avoid other tigers in the wilds of India. That is why the SF Zoo knew that the vile men had taunted the tiger because tigers will do everything to AVOID contact with others... unless they are hunting & are trying to kill.

I have seen a number of wildlife experts on CNN recently discussing the case & they all said the same thing: tigers are solitary, they avoid others unless they feel threatened and then they will focus on the threat & they will not rest until they kill the threat.

If those monks/handlers are beating the tigers, the tigers are sedated. If tourists are allowed to pet & pose with the tigers, the tigers are sedated.

Folks, it is impossible to domesticate a tiger. Look at what happened to Sigfried & Roy (who adored their cats & treated them well). A tiger or lion in captivity can NEVER be trusted.

Recently, in Tippi Hedren's cat sanctuary, a handler of many years was severely mauled by a tiger he cared for...

I am sad to break the bubble (which is where I think all the hostility towards BushChick is coming from)... but the ONLY way that hundreds of tourists would be able to pet/pose with captive tigers is with SEDATED animals.

I know it's not a warm-fuzzy feeling, but visiting this fake temple is not helping the tigers, it is only perpetuating their exploitation.

It's disgusting that they are breeding the tigers because they are obviously in-breeding, which will cause them to be more prone to genetic defects & disease.

When we went to the exotic cat breeding center in Palmdale, we were told that the cats were bred via a database with cats in zoos/sanctuaries all over the world TO AVOID IN-BREEDING.

There are enough wealthy Thais, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Indonesians living in SE Asia, that a consortium could be formed to build a real sanctuary so that the tigers could be rehabbed for eventual release (in India & other regions).

The tiger in the Palmdale sanctuary was in a 'cage' that was about 50 feet x 25 feet with a height of about 20 feet with a den, grass & hanging tigers.

All the cats were in large 'cages' with toys... in RVT-speak it's called 'environmental enrichment' and it is required by law in the US for captive animals, including lab/biomedical research animals.

My husband established a toy rotation program at his facility (once a week they get a different toy). Even the mice/rats have toys.

We are anti-PETA, we are not vegans & other than the San Diego Zoo, I do not like zoos either... but I think tourists are very naive if they think that these monks are breeding tigers for the benefit of the tigers... and childishly naive if they think those tigers are not sedated.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2008, 07:44 AM
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AskOksana, bravo. Written like a true naturalist. As a person who walks in and out of the jungle on weekly basis, I agree with you. Tigers can never be tamed.

In my country Malaysia, we have similar problem in Penang. Every year, thousands flock the Snake Temple (google this) to get up close with snakes, namely Wagler's Pit Viper (Tropidolaemus wagleri) but many don't know that these snakes are suffering acute lung ailment from inhaling joss-stick smoke burnt in the temple. That's the reason why snakes stay put on altars. However, visitors are made to believe the snakes are docile due to some mystical power in the temple. I believe these snakes are caught in the wild and brought to the temple to muse tourists. Vipers thrive in deep jungle. Penang is hardly a garden. Honestly, I have stumbled on wild Wagler's Pit Vipers many times in the rainforest and they will NOT hesitate to tag me if I go close. I am no fan of snakes but I think people should stop patronising places that purvey dazed animals.

Ahh .. but in tourism, things can get pretty blurred. People want to ride elephants, pat a tiger, shake hands with orang utans, you know .. stuffs that make a good holiday story. And people want to do it cheap, minus the hassles of braving muddy trails, leeches and long treks. Just as there's fast food, people want fast holiday.

I am also worried that if there's a sudden drop of visitors to Tiger Temple after this thread, I reckon the tigers would be the ones suffering as money is needed to buy food for them. The monks can move out and do something else - the tigers can't. I don't have a good solution for this.

The idea of wealthy Asians chipping in to finance a real tiger sanctuary is a good one, but I don't think it's going to happen in my lifetime. Being Asian, I know how wealthy Asians think (sorry if I offend any wealthy Asians in this forum!). To them, it's all about keeping the poor poorer so that big companies can capitalise on cheap labour. If I am wrong, could someone give me one rich Asian fella's name who has done something meaningful for conservation?

In early 2000, the Mymmar government has proposed to create the world's largest tiger refuge in Hukawng Valley, nearly 8,000 square miles, about the size of Vermont. But does anyone believe it's going to happen? Heck, the country can't even get democracy right.

Anyway, I hope everyone who wish to see wildlife would really go the distance and see them in their natural habitat. This way, governments would see the importance of large tract rainforest conservation and not confine their annual tourism budget promoting a staged shows.
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