Kate

For anyone who is interested in the learning more about the plight of elephants in Thailand, watch the program on the National Geographic channel on Friday Oct.18th at 8pm eastern time or Saturday Oct.19th @ 1pm eastern time. You will be stunned.<BR>

Heather

Kate,<BR>Thanks for the info. I hope that I can watch the entire program. I literally felt sick watching PETA's short video on the elephant training camps in Thailand, especially since we participated in an elephant trek and accompanying circus-like display less than a week ago! <BR><BR>

darlene

Kate,<BR>I'm very upset by all of the posts on the Thai elephants, I am planning a trip to Thailand in 2004, and had thought that I would like to see the one of the elephant camps. Unfortunately, I do not get the Nat Geo channel, and don't see it on anly of my channels, nor have I seen the PETA piece. I do know (or was under the impression at least) that the elephants don't have much other opportunity. There must be some camps that treat the elephants humanely?<BR><BR>Also to elephant lovers, everywhere, are you aware that there is a CITES meeting is scheduled for November.<BR><BR>5 African countries: South Africa, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Botswana and Namibia are proposing to lift the ivory trade ban. This would be only of stockpiled ivory and is supposed to benefit their countries, people and the wildlife within. However, my research and the feelings of many other conservationists is that by lifting the ban a message is sent to traders and poachers that ivory may be traded. Illegal ivory from other countries, including the even more endangered Asian elephants ivory is often smuggled into these countries in hopes of sale, and it fuels additional new poaching, not to mention renewing the market and increasing the desire for ivory.<BR>If you would like to do something about this situation, I suggest that you go to this web site (http://www.ifaw.org/takeaction/write...ry=176&id=1301) <BR><BR>Here are a few other web addresses I used for my research. The official CITES web site: read the proposals for yourself– the relevant ones are Proposals 6 thru 11. http://www.cites.org/ and the International Fund for Animal Welfare website is http://www.ifaw.org/ This is the organization sponsoring the letter campaign. One other source of information and a great read is the book Wildlife Wars by Richard Leakey.

Rick

I saw the program you are referring to and how the elephants are tortured into submission when they are just 4 or 5 months old. It was hard to watch that portion of the program. I am unsure of whether to participate in any elephant activities while we are in Thailand.

Donna

WE just came back from Thailand and had a ride on the elephants. Please enlighten me more about this.<BR><BR>Thanks

darlene

Donna,<BR>Please tell us about your experience. I can't believe that all the camps are bad places. For the most part it is simply not possible to put these elephants back in the wild, and many of these camps seem to be a neccessity, and have many programs to deal with elephant welfare. However, I would be interested to find the best camps, as I plan my trip to Thailand.

Donna

Darlene:<BR><BR>We thoroughly enjoyed our trip to the elephant farm. That was our highlight of the north pretty much. I don't know which camp we went to now. We felt the elephants were treated good, and it is a way to employ quite a few people and the interest in people going to see the elephants seems high. We saw the elephants bathe, did some tricks for us and then we went on a ride. So the elephants weren't worked very hard. We all bought banana's to feed our elephant that we rode on. The work isn't hard work like if they were hauling huge trees around all day and they are not being killed for their ivory. I didn't have a problem.

darlene

Thanks Donna for your reply. I'm happy to hear of your good experience.<BR><BR>I would be interested in hearing from others about their encounters with elephants and elephant camps.

KellyF

I will be going with a tour group to the Chiang Mai area, and we are scheduled to do an elephant trek from the Mai Ping Elephant Camp. Does anyone know anything about this camp -- specifically, how the elephants are treated? I've been reading quite a bit on this subject, and it seems that there is much difference among camps and how they treat the animals.<BR><BR>I would look forward to doing an elephant trek, but I would rather skip it if the camp is not a good one.

darlene

Kelly,<BR>A friend of mine just got back from Thailand last week. Their tour group went to that very camp and she was very happy with it. She is well aware of the controversy and sensitive to animal wellbeing and she thought it was well run. It is still one of the only ways to keep these animals and their mahouts fed.

KellyF

Darlene -<BR>Thanks for the feedback. I actually called my travel company (Overseas Adventure Travel), who told me that they are extremely attentive to local issues and conservation needs, and that they would never patronize a business if there were any hint that they were abusing their animals.<BR><BR>Still, it's nice to get a second, more objective opinion on that. I am aware that tourism uses of elephants can in many cases save their lives, so I'm thrilled to participate as long as I'm not causing more harm than good.

darlene

Kelly, My friend actually went with OAT, had a wonderful time, was happy with OAT and misses Thai food already. <BR>When are you going? Have a wonderful time.

KellyF

Darlene, that's wonderful to hear! Unfortunately, I don't leave 'til - can you believe this? - December 21st, on a trip that's already nearly fully booked! Luckily, I've got a Costa Rica trip planned in the meantime, to feed the travel beast in me.<BR>

darlene

Kelly,<BR>After planning a trip that was over a year away, it's funny how they sneak up on you. With another to take trip before that it will probably seem really soon. I'm not planning my trip to Thailand until 2004, but the process is also fun.

CharlieB

Kate - I understand your concern. We visited a &quot;conservation&quot; camp several years ago and enjoyed the experience, and learn about the mission they were on. Elephants were used primarily to haul Teak logs out of the jungle. Now that Teak harvesting has been seriously curtailed by the Thai government there is little for these elephants to do. It is not cheap to care for an elephant, and if there is no work for them the mahout has no income. As the elephant is the main and perhaps only source of the mahout's livelihood, one would hope they are well cared for. Yes, some are perhaps treated badly, but I would assume no more so than domesticated animals here in the states. For the sake of these noble animals, I would urge you to visit a camp to assist the Thai government and people in preserving a natural and national heritage. Be aware - elephants are not fun to ride!

Gill

We are going to Thailand in a couple of weeks and I was also concerned about the treatment of the elephants in these camps. I found the Thai government website for the National Elephant Institute in Lampang, about an hour away from Chiang Mai. The website is : www.thaielephant.net or you can try the Tourism Authority of Thailand website: www.tatnews.org. <BR>This government camp seems to be like any other of the tourist elephant camps, but maybe the money paid there can go a bit further to help the elephants? Has anyone been to this camp? They also sell elephant dung paper and paintings by the elephants.<BR>I'm still not sure I want to visit an elephant camp but as posted in this thread, the mahouts really don't have any other options. Maybe I'll just donate what I would have paid for the visit. <BR>

CharlieB

Gill - an excellent thought. We left an extra donation as we departed our elephant conservation camp - just to help the Thais maintain a national heritage and to support the elephants in their plight.

biggles

Any elephant lovers out their who are in thailand for the 3rd weekend in November might like to head to the town of Surin (N.E of BKK) for the elephant round-up. over 200 elephants come into town for a big show at the local stadium which covers the introduction of the new babies born that year, training, a mock football match, a re-enactment of an old time battle. commentary is in english and the elephants come into town, giving rides and being fed by locals. there is also a bit fair/market/trade show which covers about four town blocks.

bkboyd

The Thai government has looked into this and has stated that many of the claims were false. For example, some of the blood is supposed to be medicinal dye that the filmmakers requested be applied to the animals before filming. Additionally, one of the participants in the video claims that she was duped by the filmmakers. <BR><BR>I've visited five different elephant camps, and the elephants have consistently appeared healthy and well cared for. <BR><BR>If PETA was really interested in the welfare of these animals, they might have focused on illegal logging in Burma, where they reputedly use amphetamines to boost the elephant's productivity. They also use ele's in areas with landmines -- I've seen several of these creatures in Thai conservation stations who've had part of their foot blown off by mines.<BR><BR>Alternately, PETA could have focused on bigger problems in the region -- such as shark finning, or the killing of endangered tigers to make Chinese traditional medicines. But, what can you expect from a group that compares chicken production to the Holocaust?<BR><BR>The Thais have a real problem with elephants. They banned logging to deal with deforestation, and the elephants, in local phrasing, &quot;are unemployed&quot;. Camps have become a win-win compromise -- a home and source of revenue to support the elephants and their mahouts. <BR><BR>People are often hurt by male elephants when they are musking, and a loose elephant can cause major damage to farms and crops: I spoke with one farmer who said that a single elephant did $60,000 baht worth of damage to in a single night. <BR><BR>Rather than condemming the Thai people for trying to make the best of a difficult problem, why not support good conservation efforts, such as the Royal Project. <BR><BR>I'm not saying that there aren't any cases of elephant abuse in Thailand. But, before you are &quot;stunned&quot; by these revelations, look at all sides of the story. <BR><BR>BTW, you can find out more on the Thai government efforts to help elephants at:<BR><BR>http://newsroom.tat.or.th/others/1785.asp<BR>

picadilly

I spent two weeks in Thailand in November 2003. One week was spent at the Thai Elephant Conservation Center in Lampang. I can tell you that the elephants are well cared for and very happy. I can't imagine a better life for them. The Mahouts and everyone that works there show them lots of love and attention. We also spent a few days in Surin at the Elephant Roundup Festival.