Reports from people actually in China
May 15th, 2003 | 02:09 PM
#1
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Joined: Feb 2003
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Reports from people actually in China
Has anyone had communication with anyone who is actually in China and can tell us if we can believe reports that things are improving? Or anyone who has recently returned from a trip there? We are still scheduled for 9/11 22 day tour.
May 15th, 2003 | 04:47 PM
#2
Joined: Jan 2003
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I'm regularly in touch with friends in China, and with people working for me there at the moment.
What's most important to understand is that those living there have far less access to accurate information than we do. The Chinese media carry no accurate or worthwhile reports, government announcements cannot be trusted, and rumour and superstition are rife. Those who have access to foreign media can learn no more than we can, and usually less, since many foreign media Web sites are blocked, for instance.
The Chinese government has been claiming since Tuesday of last week that things have stabilized, but WHO has continued to dispute this, and to complain that the government is still withholding data vital to understanding the size of the problem (the number of affected individuals in military camps for instance), and data to do with transmission.
Approximately 10% of the patients in Beijing are migrant workers, around 1.3 million of whom were allowed to leave the capital after the existence of a large number of cases was finally admitted, and who have certainly spread the disease to the countryside.
The central government has much less knowledge of what happens in the countryside than it would like you to believe. Data on all issues from the economy, to crop yields, to birth control policy effectiveness, passed up from village, through town, county, and provincial authorities are distorted at every stage to please what it is perceived the level above wants to here, as the government has been known occasionally to admit. Essentially it doesn't know what's going on, but if it did it would be highly unlikely to publish the truth, unless what best served its ends happened to be precisely that.
In short, it is highly unlikely that things are getting better overall. As with other matters, the more frequently and more stridently a claim is made in the Chinese media, the greater the reason to believe the opposite is true.
There is considerable rumour that at least one of the provinces declared free of SARS is not so, and I've heard direct accounts via someone who knows doctors there that they are being instructed to deny the existence of SARS even as patients die. I cannot absolutely confirm this story, but it is highly credible.
On a more trivial note, things are certainly not improving for the visitor. Several countries have now closed their borders with China; some towns (Lijiang, for example) and even whole regions (Tibet, for instance) are closed for tourism. Several major Shanghai hotels have closed down for the time being. Most larger places of public entertainment in Beijing are still closed. The Forbidden City, Lama Temple, and various other major sights in and around Beijing are closed at the moment. Road transport to the suburbs is frequently interrupted for cursory medical checks. Temperatures are taken at major railway stations as you enter (although a lot of people reportedly slip through).
I would be delighted to be proved wrong, but it is most likely that far from improving, things will get a great deal worse yet, and the only reports which can be relied upon are those of the WHO. Consult its Web site.
http://www.who.int/csr/sars/archive/2003_05_15/en/
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
What's most important to understand is that those living there have far less access to accurate information than we do. The Chinese media carry no accurate or worthwhile reports, government announcements cannot be trusted, and rumour and superstition are rife. Those who have access to foreign media can learn no more than we can, and usually less, since many foreign media Web sites are blocked, for instance.
The Chinese government has been claiming since Tuesday of last week that things have stabilized, but WHO has continued to dispute this, and to complain that the government is still withholding data vital to understanding the size of the problem (the number of affected individuals in military camps for instance), and data to do with transmission.
Approximately 10% of the patients in Beijing are migrant workers, around 1.3 million of whom were allowed to leave the capital after the existence of a large number of cases was finally admitted, and who have certainly spread the disease to the countryside.
The central government has much less knowledge of what happens in the countryside than it would like you to believe. Data on all issues from the economy, to crop yields, to birth control policy effectiveness, passed up from village, through town, county, and provincial authorities are distorted at every stage to please what it is perceived the level above wants to here, as the government has been known occasionally to admit. Essentially it doesn't know what's going on, but if it did it would be highly unlikely to publish the truth, unless what best served its ends happened to be precisely that.
In short, it is highly unlikely that things are getting better overall. As with other matters, the more frequently and more stridently a claim is made in the Chinese media, the greater the reason to believe the opposite is true.
There is considerable rumour that at least one of the provinces declared free of SARS is not so, and I've heard direct accounts via someone who knows doctors there that they are being instructed to deny the existence of SARS even as patients die. I cannot absolutely confirm this story, but it is highly credible.
On a more trivial note, things are certainly not improving for the visitor. Several countries have now closed their borders with China; some towns (Lijiang, for example) and even whole regions (Tibet, for instance) are closed for tourism. Several major Shanghai hotels have closed down for the time being. Most larger places of public entertainment in Beijing are still closed. The Forbidden City, Lama Temple, and various other major sights in and around Beijing are closed at the moment. Road transport to the suburbs is frequently interrupted for cursory medical checks. Temperatures are taken at major railway stations as you enter (although a lot of people reportedly slip through).
I would be delighted to be proved wrong, but it is most likely that far from improving, things will get a great deal worse yet, and the only reports which can be relied upon are those of the WHO. Consult its Web site.
http://www.who.int/csr/sars/archive/2003_05_15/en/
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
May 15th, 2003 | 10:12 PM
#3
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 426
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I'm an American who has been living in Shanghai for 4 years, and I'm still here! In terms of whom to believe, the WHO is regarded as an independent party, so I'd check there first.
I disagree with the above statement that "those living there have far less access to accurate information than we do." While this may be true for the Chinese population as a whole, anyone with internet access who can read English has access to 99% of the same information that you do - and we're probably monitoring it much more closely!
I have access to (and check daily) WHO, CDC, Google News (which is a great way to get news from many sources), International Herald Tribune, the New York Times, and the South China Morning Post, among many, many other sources.
There are a few sites that are blocked (Time, for example), but everyone here is watching the situation pretty carefully, and we know about relevant articles almost as soon as they are released (they show up on the Google searches, for example), and coordinate to have someone send them (such as the Time article that was the first to break significanly the hiding of cases in Beijing story).
I would suspect that some people here may even have MORE information about the situation in China than the average person in the states, since not only do we have access to 99% of the same international sources, but we know where to look for further China info (for example, the Shanghai Municipal Health Bureau website (www.smhb.gov.cn) posts detailed daily updates on Shanghai cases).
I hope this won't be considered a commercial posting, since it's done in the spirit of sharing information, but my company's website publishes daily SARS updates that have the latest information on regulations, quarantines, etc., though it is Shanghai-specific: www.worldlink-shanghai.com.
I disagree with the above statement that "those living there have far less access to accurate information than we do." While this may be true for the Chinese population as a whole, anyone with internet access who can read English has access to 99% of the same information that you do - and we're probably monitoring it much more closely!
I have access to (and check daily) WHO, CDC, Google News (which is a great way to get news from many sources), International Herald Tribune, the New York Times, and the South China Morning Post, among many, many other sources.
There are a few sites that are blocked (Time, for example), but everyone here is watching the situation pretty carefully, and we know about relevant articles almost as soon as they are released (they show up on the Google searches, for example), and coordinate to have someone send them (such as the Time article that was the first to break significanly the hiding of cases in Beijing story).
I would suspect that some people here may even have MORE information about the situation in China than the average person in the states, since not only do we have access to 99% of the same international sources, but we know where to look for further China info (for example, the Shanghai Municipal Health Bureau website (www.smhb.gov.cn) posts detailed daily updates on Shanghai cases).
I hope this won't be considered a commercial posting, since it's done in the spirit of sharing information, but my company's website publishes daily SARS updates that have the latest information on regulations, quarantines, etc., though it is Shanghai-specific: www.worldlink-shanghai.com.
May 15th, 2003 | 10:38 PM
#4
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 0
Are you so sure we are disagreeing, Andrea?
To sum up your post:
It's right to say that "the Chinese population as a whole" has far less accurate access to information
A very tiny percentage indeed, however, are foreigners or have first class English, who can read foreign media, but even they cannot reach all the foreign media sites someone living in, say, the US can.
You seem, then, to be saying exactly the same thing as I was.
The point about the Shanghai Municipal Health Bureau Web site seems to confuse having information and knowing where to look for it. That Web site is as accessible from outside China as it is from within, and can be found in the usual way through search engines. Unfortunately it's another government-controlled site concerned to put the Party line, and thus precisely the kind of source that Dorhill seems to be questioning. It will always tend to have a rosier view.
But to return to Dorhill's original query, what I think many would welcome would be level-headed impressions from Shanghai as to how things are going. Can we believe, as Dorhill asks, that things are improving? Or are your conclusions the same as mine? The chances that this will all be over by September seem as near nil as makes no difference.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
To sum up your post:
It's right to say that "the Chinese population as a whole" has far less accurate access to information
A very tiny percentage indeed, however, are foreigners or have first class English, who can read foreign media, but even they cannot reach all the foreign media sites someone living in, say, the US can.
You seem, then, to be saying exactly the same thing as I was.
The point about the Shanghai Municipal Health Bureau Web site seems to confuse having information and knowing where to look for it. That Web site is as accessible from outside China as it is from within, and can be found in the usual way through search engines. Unfortunately it's another government-controlled site concerned to put the Party line, and thus precisely the kind of source that Dorhill seems to be questioning. It will always tend to have a rosier view.
But to return to Dorhill's original query, what I think many would welcome would be level-headed impressions from Shanghai as to how things are going. Can we believe, as Dorhill asks, that things are improving? Or are your conclusions the same as mine? The chances that this will all be over by September seem as near nil as makes no difference.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
May 16th, 2003 | 06:02 AM
#5
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Here is an email I just received this morning from a friend in the tourism industry who is located near Shanghai. I think it's indicative not only of the situation vis a vis travelers, but also the ability of English-speaking Chinese to keep up with international news and their growing dissatisfaction with the government. I was very surprised to read this person's criticism, as he/she has been fairly circumspect in the past.
***
Just want to let you know we are all fine, myself, my family, parents, and all my relatives and friends. Fortunately, as of now I have not heard any of my acquaintances contracting the virus or being quarantined.
It may take some time to eliminate the SARS in China. People seem not to be so worried now as they were two weeks ago, although there still is a rise in the number of new cases every day in Beijing and its neighboring areas - Tianjin, Hebei, Shanxi and Inner Mongolia. It is indeed a big blow to China's Hospitality and Travel Industry. Lots of people just stay at home, not to go to office, not to have parties, not to eat out, not to take bus, train and plane. The number of tourists would be zero from this month to July or August to us, I presume. The strike on the Chinese tourist business is even greater than the Tian An Men Square Incident in 1989 and the "September 11" attack in 2001. There was then a sharp decrease of tourists in number, but neither like this time. We wish the virus could be controlled soon. Lots of people blame the wide spread of the virus on the slow and poor reactions of the governemt. They should have taken actions in Jan, Feb, or even in March, but not so late as on April 20. Above all, they shouldn't cover up the truth to the public at the beginning. Anyhow, eventually, the disease will have taught most of Chinese people a lesson, who never used to pay much attention to the cleanness of food and the sanitation. I don't know whether it is true or not, but lots of people believe that the SARS originated in Guangdong because Cantonese eat everthing - rats, cats, monkeys, all in all, everything from domestic animals to wild ones, even including insects. It has been confimed the virus was from the animals.
I don't worry too much. It gives me an opportunity to be with my family. The office is almost closed down for the time being. This happens to most of hotels, bars and restaurants here also. General shops are still open but without many customers. Yesterday I went to [a major tourist attraction in that city] to see a friend working there. Surprise, no visitors there! I'd never imagined it could be that beautiful, everything in peace, nothing but flowers, fresh green tree leaves, elegant pavilions and the singing of birds.
I seldom go to office. Normally I stay at home, drinking green tea, reading books, ringing or sending emails to friends. I believe the disaster will be gone definitely sooner or later. It's only a question of time!
Attatched are two articles which I copied from the Washington Post. com about the current situation related to SARS in China. True they are and funny when you read the article A Beijing Address Is Now a Stigma. I read the bitty mentioned in the artcle some days ago on internet in Chinese. There are even more like this, but hard to translate.
***
Just want to let you know we are all fine, myself, my family, parents, and all my relatives and friends. Fortunately, as of now I have not heard any of my acquaintances contracting the virus or being quarantined.
It may take some time to eliminate the SARS in China. People seem not to be so worried now as they were two weeks ago, although there still is a rise in the number of new cases every day in Beijing and its neighboring areas - Tianjin, Hebei, Shanxi and Inner Mongolia. It is indeed a big blow to China's Hospitality and Travel Industry. Lots of people just stay at home, not to go to office, not to have parties, not to eat out, not to take bus, train and plane. The number of tourists would be zero from this month to July or August to us, I presume. The strike on the Chinese tourist business is even greater than the Tian An Men Square Incident in 1989 and the "September 11" attack in 2001. There was then a sharp decrease of tourists in number, but neither like this time. We wish the virus could be controlled soon. Lots of people blame the wide spread of the virus on the slow and poor reactions of the governemt. They should have taken actions in Jan, Feb, or even in March, but not so late as on April 20. Above all, they shouldn't cover up the truth to the public at the beginning. Anyhow, eventually, the disease will have taught most of Chinese people a lesson, who never used to pay much attention to the cleanness of food and the sanitation. I don't know whether it is true or not, but lots of people believe that the SARS originated in Guangdong because Cantonese eat everthing - rats, cats, monkeys, all in all, everything from domestic animals to wild ones, even including insects. It has been confimed the virus was from the animals.
I don't worry too much. It gives me an opportunity to be with my family. The office is almost closed down for the time being. This happens to most of hotels, bars and restaurants here also. General shops are still open but without many customers. Yesterday I went to [a major tourist attraction in that city] to see a friend working there. Surprise, no visitors there! I'd never imagined it could be that beautiful, everything in peace, nothing but flowers, fresh green tree leaves, elegant pavilions and the singing of birds.
I seldom go to office. Normally I stay at home, drinking green tea, reading books, ringing or sending emails to friends. I believe the disaster will be gone definitely sooner or later. It's only a question of time!
Attatched are two articles which I copied from the Washington Post. com about the current situation related to SARS in China. True they are and funny when you read the article A Beijing Address Is Now a Stigma. I read the bitty mentioned in the artcle some days ago on internet in Chinese. There are even more like this, but hard to translate.
May 16th, 2003 | 07:18 AM
#6
Original Poster
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 46
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I really appreciate the honest and thoughtful replies you guys gave. Sounds pretty bleak and seems to indicate that a Sept. tour would still have many concerns to consider. Doesn't sound hopeful for the near future. We can postpone our trip until next spring or even later (the trip is paid for but we have 2 years to use our money anywhere the agency goes) or we are considering Australia, New Zealand, and Bali for this fall but really want to see China. As you have indicated, time and WHO will determine the outcome of the efforts to control this disease. Thanks for your enlightening and insightful help.
