thursdaysd

Mark - you must have been in Iran when I was in Bhutan (having arrived in Pakistan right after 9/11!). Geo Ex had to put the remnants of three tours together to make one as so many people had canceled.

Envy you Iran, I keep thinking of going, and then putting it off, but the political situation doesn't get any better.

Kathie

thursdays, I have printed you report - lots of good information!

thursdaysd

Kathie - hope it helps. I'm looking forward to reading about your plans. I'd be happy to visit Bhutan again, but now I'm retired the expense is a real consideration.

zengeos

Thursdays...

We arranged the Iran trip with a local Iranian travel company as a private trip for the two of us. We usualy do it that way so that we have more freedom to change things around. For example, while on the Caspian Sea, we got caught in a major rain storm/monsoon that flooded the entire area for a day...the roads were covered in 6-12 inches of water...so we cut that part f the trip short an spent a couple extra days in Shiraz and Isfahan. The old city of Bam was wonderful...unfortunately, it was mostly destroyed in the earthquae a couple years ago.

Mark-

cameraman

Kathie,
My wife and I are also planning a trip in November for the 2 of us. We will be there Nov 5-18 as a private trip. We are talking to Blue Poppy at this time but have not settled on an itinerary. I am a freelance photographer and my wife is the journalist. We are planning on doing a photo expose on Bhutan. Maybe we will run into you there.

Kathie

cameraman, you are farther along in your planning than we are in ours. Please post as you move forward with your arrangements. We're stilling ruminating about our plans. If we do go, we'll be in Bhutan part of teh time you are - we'll be arriving a little later.

Bhutan_Expert

Dear Taia,
There has been tourists who visited Bhutan for 4 days and were satisfied.However they combined with India and Sikkim (A himalayan Indian state close to Bhutan).But it is too little if you are flying all the way to the Himalayas only Bhutan for 4 days (3 nights).It is also not worth because you spend the same amount for flight whether it is 5 days or 15 days just to get there (unless you have a special flight and an offer on a certian date).If you have such special flight then it is worth even if it 3nights (4days) in Bhutan.Then you can do Paro (2 nights) and Thimphu (capital town) (1 night).if you want to escape to more quietness then you can do Haa (a quiet traditional town which was closed for tourism until recently).If the day is clear it is worth a drive over a mountain pass (Chelela) close to 4000m (one of the highest motorable point in the eastern himalayas).From the top one can get a stunning view of the Bhutan's most scared mountain Mt.Jomolhari (7314m).It also happens to be the country's second highest mountain.If time does not permit to go to Haa, one can still drive untill Chelela for the view.You have to tell me the month you are planning to visit so that I can advise you accordingly.But if you enjoy walking and do not have much physical problem then I would advise you to skip the drive and make a gentle climb in the Paro valley to view the tiger's nest monastery which almost opposes the gravity and literally hangs on a granite cliff.This is the religious symbol of Bhutan.
Bhutan is not expensive if you consider what it includes - a transport with airport pick up/drop and driving around for sight seeing which is under your command till the time you are there - a driver - a guide - all meals including tea/coffee and evening snacks - Hotels (Yes, I agree that they are not 5 star standard but it is clean, spacious with extremely friendly staff. Most Hotels in Paro and Thimphu has internet access, telephone,TV and running hot water).Government law has it that Hotels designated for tourist has to meet certian standards for any tour operator to use for their clients.So while in Bhutan you can be sure of staying in some of the best hotels excluding the new luxary hotels which has newly come to Bhutan (where a night stay alone is more than one's whole Bhutan day trip) and mind you they are called luxuary hotels but are still behind considering the price one pays compared to European and American standards.
Bhutan is definetly worth a trip.Most say it is a life time trip not for the amount of money one pays and the dificulties to enter on given date (because of the infastructure) but more because Bhutan captures the heart of every traveller with its magic ride back in time.
I've guided tourist of every nationalities for over 11 years in Bhutan and have never had an experience when a single client told me that it was not worth the price they paid.Bhutan mesmerises visitors starting from the clean crispy air you start breathing the moment you land to the friendliness of the people to the peacfulness of time.Vibrant culture and unspoiled nature is seen everywhere and is the only county in the world where national dress is worn when not in lesiure.Time here stands still.Bhutan is perhaps the only country without a MacDonals and a set of traffic lights.There are no beggers and homeless.People are full of smile and chilli is eaten as the most loved vegatable and not as a spice.This is indeed a unique country.
Let me know if you have any questions.Would be happy to shed more light.
Have a nice day!

Bhutan_Expert

Author: Kathie
Date: 02/07/2007, 09:33 pm
Robbie, I'm in the process of drawing up an itinerary as well. I'm really torn, as I don't want to move every day. I fear I'll just see scenery and not get a real flavor for the people and the culture, on teh other hand I want to see as much as I can. I'll also be interested to know which Bhutanese agencies you are submitting your proposal to.

If we go this year, our trip will be in November.


Dear Kathie,
I can understand your excitment and at the same time fear in going to a strange land where information is hard to come by and not being able to choose the right point of visit.
Scenery will engluf you the time you are there untill you leave.This does not mean that you will miss the culture, the people and the lifestyle.You can visit traditional houses and visit villages on foot and meet and see the people.This is mostly not drwan in the itinery

Bhutan_Expert

Dear Kathie,
I can understand your excitment as well as fear in going to a strange land where information is hard to come by and not being able to choose the right point of visit.
Scenery will engluf you the moment you are there untill you leave.This does not mean that you will miss the culture, the people and the lifestyle and the flavour as you put it.You can visit traditional houses and visit villages on foot and meet and see the people.You can even eat with the Bhutanese family if you do not mind the chillies which they eat as a common vegetable.....(no fear!...you can still have the milder version one. never think its is an extra work for them.They would be only happy to make a milder version for you.What is worst is to REFUSE).
This is mostly not drawn in the itinery but you can inform your tour guide in advance.Most travel companies rather include visit to the temples,monasteries and dzong (fortress) and tour guides follow it.To many dzongs can make you "Zonked".I can understand it very well for my visit in Europe made me "church out".Ask for changes to the day's program and go off the beaten track for the best flavour.If you could tell me if there is anything partiucular you look forward to then I would be able to advise you accordingly.
I agree that the Lonely Planet is so far the best book.But you should bear in mind that it was written on the universal standard like all lonely planet guide book.Since Bhutan has a unique form of tourism where only packages are allowed and independent and backpackers are not permitted.A lot can be different.If you get a good travelling guide...it is the best thing that can happen.It can make all the difference.
I wish you luck!
If there is anything.Write a note.Would be happy to help.
Have a nice day!

Robbietravels

Hi Kathy, Taia and other future visitors:
I've now settled on my itinerary for December (to coincide with National Day and the Trongsa festival) and am corresponding with Blue Poppy Tours and Snow White Tours. If you want the detailed itinerary as it stands, let me know how I can get it to you.
Two companies said yes to everything I wanted to include; only the above two scaled back my proposal with very sound reasons that all my reading had not alerted me to.(sorry, too tired to correct the very bad sentence!)
From what I understand, other than deciding on how you want to spend your time (we're there 9 1/2 days), there's not much to do now. Druk Air fares & schedules don't come out until summer and hotels don't accept bookings (according to all 6 companies I contacted) until the fall.
Most companies will craft whatever itinerary you like, the key for me is getting the right guide....and I'm awaiting references at present. Anyone had a guide from either Blue Poppy or Snow White?

Kathie

Robbie, thanks for your generous offer. I will ask Bob, the keeper of confidential email addresses to connect us.

We are still debating about whether to go to Bhutan this year. We've long wanted to visit Bhutan. My concern is that Bhutan requires you to travel with a guide. Frankly, after reading Craig's wonderful report on Burma, I was reminded of how much I value having time on my own to wander and interact with people on my own. I fear it would drive me crazy to be with a gudie all the time. Anyway, we are still debating.

I look forward to seeing what you've planned!

jules39

Kathie we have also been looking at Bhutan. We just got back from this years trip so it will be 2008. It is interesting but I have similar "fears" to you with regards to feeling like I don't really get to see the place because we are with a gude all the time. We have done a few treks in Nepal and don't really want to trek in Bhutan. I really want to enjoy the culture and the scenery. It always seems to happen thought that when I begin to think about another destination I pick up a magazine or turn on the radio and hear/read some sort of documentary about Bhutan and how "unspoilt" it is and once again I begin to think "I have got to get there"! So at the moment I am waiting for the new Lonely planet book to hopefully come out in the next month and am interestingly following what kind of itinerary you & robbie come up with.
Happy travels J

Kathie

Jules, thanks for your comments. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who doesn't want my experience "mediated" by a guide!

thursdaysd

While it's true you have to have a guide for Bhutan, I didn't find that he stuck to us like glue! Admittedly, I was traveling with 15 other people, not just one, but we were able to wander around on own once we reached a given destination.

Craig

Kathie, I almost want to make this a separate post about "Guides in Asia: Are They Really Necessary?" We are pretty much alike when it comes to guides. In some countries we have found they are a necessary evil. We made out well in Myanmar where the guides totally enhanced our trip with one exception - and even that particular guide saved us a lot of time and aggravation with some logistical problems. The Bhutan situation is unique it seems - the guide is always there - correct me if I'm wrong - this would be tough for us to deal with. You have to have a break along the way just to wander on your own, to do you own thing, to interact with the locals on your own terms.

Kathie

Craig, it would be interesting to see people's responses to such a post. I have used guides in some places, but have always alternated that with independent time. In Bhutan, you are required to have a local guide. To me, that feels different. I'd be interested in other's perspectives on this.

Thursdays, I'm sure it's a bit different being in a group, but being required to have a guide feels constraining to me.

Kathie

Robbie, I sent you an email - if you don't find it, please check your spam filter. I titled it "It's Kathie from Fodors" so you would know I'm not selling viagra, pumping a penny stock or offering you a loan.

bkkmei

Hi
we were really lucky with our guide in Bhutan - he was quite 'new' to it all. So when we could see how beautiful and amazing Bhutan was, it was like he could see his country anew! He didn't know tonnes of stuff about his country but that was sort of good cos we didn't want someone constantly spouting info in our ear all the time. He was such a good bloke, we got on really well. In the end he invited us to his home for dinner - not allowed by the tour company!!! It was very special.
Our driver on the other hand was an old hand at tourist guiding (but was taking a 'break') and he knew all the stories to tell and dare I say it, there was a bit of the cynic in him.

So...when you arrange your tour, if you're having a guide to yourself, perhaps try to specify what kind of character you think you'd get along with.

Cos there was just the 2 of us, our guide was with us from breakfast till dinner. When we specified that we'd like to have some private time, he let us. One night we walked back from the restaurant to the hotel by ourselves in the pitch dark. Those sweet stray dogs during the day are wild baying packs at night! Was never so scared in my life...

Bhutan_Expert

Bhutan does not permit independent travellers.The only trips possible are the package trips whereby guide is included in the package and is assigned even before you set foot there.However this does not mean that you have to stick with the guide 7/24.The good reasons why you should have a guide in Bhutan is that information is not easy to come by.Media is still weak and changes which constantly occur is not reflected appropriatly.Most of this is done by word of mouth and guides become a good source.The other reason to have a guide is because it is virtually impossible to travel on your own with the country.There are control and check points everytime you cross to another town.Permits and papers are to be produced (sometimes the controller is not available or he is taking a nap nearby where his house is).Guides know where and how to find them.Unlike other countries where once you get a visa one can travel in the county without constrain,Bhutan speaks differently.
However one can have freedom and enjoy ones' privacy.There are certian places of visit where you need to produce permit to enter (like dzongs (fortress) and some temples).Visit this places where you require permits first with the guide(since many do not permit tourist on their own) and leave the rest to wander on your own for the whole afternoon and evening.You could do this everyday in every place and have the whole afternoon and evening to yourself.Bhutan is safe and to wander on your own can be pleasant.
Enjoy your travel!!!

jules39

I have been thinking about the guide comments we have made and I think possibly the thing that causes myself Kathie & Craig to wonder whether it will work for us is that we have no choice. We have hired a driver & guide in Cambodia guide for part of the time only but a driver for the whole time and this worked out perfectly. The driver saves so much time and I enjoyed taking time out in a quiet corner of a temple to just talk with our guide while my hubby wandered off taking photos. If there was not the requirements of Bhutan I would guess that Kathie & ourselves would hire a driver at the very least especially considering the infrastructure of the country. What do you think?

Kathie if you get a copy of Robbies itinerary do you think you could summarize it here?

Happy travels

J