One Week in Beijing, what would you do?
Jun 19th, 2014, 10:01 AM
#21
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> I arranged my driver ahead of time, NOT a tour, just a driver for the day out to the Wall. I found him via TripAdvisor and liked the reviews he got from various people.
Could you explain how that would prevent him from being '10x the going rate' as Kathie suggested?
> I found him via TripAdvisor and liked the reviews he got from various people.
TripAdvisor is the single most comprehensive source of travel ignorance ever invented. Your next remark explains one reason why:
> His price was entirely within the expected range for what others were reporting they had spent with other drivers.
In other words, self-reinforcement. One person reports what they paid. Others look to pay the same price. Then it looks as though many have paid the right price, although in fact this 'right price' is entirely an artefact of the way user-contributed sites work.
Booking ahead via any private Chinese operator targeting foreigners with an English-language site absolutely guarantees that you will pay more then you need to do. Long experience shows that the 'right' price will rise from its already overly-high rate to an ever-higher rate as more people who have no clue about local pricing carry on recommending the same driver over and over again. Of course, the driver's excess profits will enable him to begin sub-contracting as demand for his services overtakes his availability until you start to see postings here complaining that Jack was booked, but Joe (who doesn't speak such good English) showed up, and eventually Jack is replaced by Eric as the new name to recommend, still at an absurd price, and the cycle starts all over again.
The actual price for a day trip out of town is found by being in town, and bargaining locally. It is typically several hundred kuai cheaper than any price ever seen quoted here.
Could you explain how that would prevent him from being '10x the going rate' as Kathie suggested?
> I found him via TripAdvisor and liked the reviews he got from various people.
TripAdvisor is the single most comprehensive source of travel ignorance ever invented. Your next remark explains one reason why:
> His price was entirely within the expected range for what others were reporting they had spent with other drivers.
In other words, self-reinforcement. One person reports what they paid. Others look to pay the same price. Then it looks as though many have paid the right price, although in fact this 'right price' is entirely an artefact of the way user-contributed sites work.
Booking ahead via any private Chinese operator targeting foreigners with an English-language site absolutely guarantees that you will pay more then you need to do. Long experience shows that the 'right' price will rise from its already overly-high rate to an ever-higher rate as more people who have no clue about local pricing carry on recommending the same driver over and over again. Of course, the driver's excess profits will enable him to begin sub-contracting as demand for his services overtakes his availability until you start to see postings here complaining that Jack was booked, but Joe (who doesn't speak such good English) showed up, and eventually Jack is replaced by Eric as the new name to recommend, still at an absurd price, and the cycle starts all over again.
The actual price for a day trip out of town is found by being in town, and bargaining locally. It is typically several hundred kuai cheaper than any price ever seen quoted here.
Jun 19th, 2014, 11:58 AM
#22
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<<<Could you explain how that would prevent him from being '10x the going rate' as Kathie suggested?>>>
I wasn't addressing that idea at all, simply that I didn't hire him through a tour website, that he was only a driver. The tours tend to have a reputation for stopping at 'jade' factories and the like.
I knew that the price was fair because I saw prices for Mutianyu and for Jinshanling on multiple sites, including from people who have done exactly what Kathie suggests and negotiated with a taxi driver for the day. His price was way less than the prices you see on private driver or tour sites and was right in the normal ranges posted by people who live in Beijing, not just other tourists.
As for negotiating with a taxi driver, I only knew the courtesies in Chinese and there's only so much I want to do by pointing to the name of where I want to go and writing numbers back and forth. The few times I used a taxi in Beijing, I don't think any of the drivers spoke more than a few words of English and certainly not enough to carry on a conversation. I may have paid a little more than I could have negotiated for, but I also got to go with someone I could read about ahead of time so that I knew what kind of driver he was and a little about him. I also knew that I would be in a car for a few hours with someone who spoke English. My time riding with Joe was fantastic as I could ask him a ton of questions and that alone was well worth the $10 I might have been able to save by negotiating with a taxi driver.
Not everyone is comfortable negotiating with a taxi driver for a day trip when they don't speak the language. I didn't want to deal with it and it was the right choice for me.
I wasn't addressing that idea at all, simply that I didn't hire him through a tour website, that he was only a driver. The tours tend to have a reputation for stopping at 'jade' factories and the like.
I knew that the price was fair because I saw prices for Mutianyu and for Jinshanling on multiple sites, including from people who have done exactly what Kathie suggests and negotiated with a taxi driver for the day. His price was way less than the prices you see on private driver or tour sites and was right in the normal ranges posted by people who live in Beijing, not just other tourists.
As for negotiating with a taxi driver, I only knew the courtesies in Chinese and there's only so much I want to do by pointing to the name of where I want to go and writing numbers back and forth. The few times I used a taxi in Beijing, I don't think any of the drivers spoke more than a few words of English and certainly not enough to carry on a conversation. I may have paid a little more than I could have negotiated for, but I also got to go with someone I could read about ahead of time so that I knew what kind of driver he was and a little about him. I also knew that I would be in a car for a few hours with someone who spoke English. My time riding with Joe was fantastic as I could ask him a ton of questions and that alone was well worth the $10 I might have been able to save by negotiating with a taxi driver.
Not everyone is comfortable negotiating with a taxi driver for a day trip when they don't speak the language. I didn't want to deal with it and it was the right choice for me.
Jun 19th, 2014, 01:53 PM
#23
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> I wasn't addressing that idea at all, simply that I didn't hire him through a tour website, that he was only a driver.
Whether he's through a 'tour website' or has a website of his own, the problem is the same. If there's an English-language website aimed at resident expats or English-speaking foreigners, the prices will still be too high.
> I knew that the price was fair because I saw prices for Mutianyu and for Jinshanling on multiple sites, including from people who have done exactly what Kathie suggests and negotiated with a taxi driver for the day.
All of which suffers from exactly the problem already mentioned, unfortunately.
> His price was way less than the prices you see on private driver or tour sites and was right in the normal ranges posted by people who live in Beijing, not just other tourists.
Being lower than bad prices doesn't make his price a good price. Nothing about living in Beijing of itself means you give good advice (as is often amply demonstrated here where the most absurd prices are recommended by Beijing residents). The price you quoted was about ¥300 more than it is in fact necessary to pay.
> As for negotiating with a taxi driver, I only knew the courtesies in Chinese and there's only so much I want to do by pointing to the name of where I want to go and writing numbers back and forth.
You must do what you're comfortable with. But this doesn't mean you paid a 'fair' price. In fact it guarantees you didn't.
> The few times I used a taxi in Beijing, I don't think any of the drivers spoke more than a few words of English and certainly not enough to carry on a conversation.
How is this relevant?
> My time riding with Joe was fantastic as I could ask him a ton of questions and that alone was well worth the $10 I might have been able to save by negotiating with a taxi driver.
I'm afraid this is the classic defence of everyone who has been told they've paid too much, assuming what they want to find is true. Regardless, it is quite a different claim from the one that you paid a 'fair' price or the 'right' price. In fact you paid around $40 more than you needed to. You may come back and say, 'I don't mind', but that doesn't make this a good recommendation for anyone else.
> Not everyone is comfortable negotiating with a taxi driver for a day trip when they don't speak the language. I didn't want to deal with it and it was the right choice for me.
With the obvious implication that 'The right choice for me' is not necessarily the right choice for everyone else, and especially those who don't want to pay a hefty mark-up, and for whom contacting drivers named here will almost always be a mistake.
Whether he's through a 'tour website' or has a website of his own, the problem is the same. If there's an English-language website aimed at resident expats or English-speaking foreigners, the prices will still be too high.
> I knew that the price was fair because I saw prices for Mutianyu and for Jinshanling on multiple sites, including from people who have done exactly what Kathie suggests and negotiated with a taxi driver for the day.
All of which suffers from exactly the problem already mentioned, unfortunately.
> His price was way less than the prices you see on private driver or tour sites and was right in the normal ranges posted by people who live in Beijing, not just other tourists.
Being lower than bad prices doesn't make his price a good price. Nothing about living in Beijing of itself means you give good advice (as is often amply demonstrated here where the most absurd prices are recommended by Beijing residents). The price you quoted was about ¥300 more than it is in fact necessary to pay.
> As for negotiating with a taxi driver, I only knew the courtesies in Chinese and there's only so much I want to do by pointing to the name of where I want to go and writing numbers back and forth.
You must do what you're comfortable with. But this doesn't mean you paid a 'fair' price. In fact it guarantees you didn't.
> The few times I used a taxi in Beijing, I don't think any of the drivers spoke more than a few words of English and certainly not enough to carry on a conversation.
How is this relevant?
> My time riding with Joe was fantastic as I could ask him a ton of questions and that alone was well worth the $10 I might have been able to save by negotiating with a taxi driver.
I'm afraid this is the classic defence of everyone who has been told they've paid too much, assuming what they want to find is true. Regardless, it is quite a different claim from the one that you paid a 'fair' price or the 'right' price. In fact you paid around $40 more than you needed to. You may come back and say, 'I don't mind', but that doesn't make this a good recommendation for anyone else.
> Not everyone is comfortable negotiating with a taxi driver for a day trip when they don't speak the language. I didn't want to deal with it and it was the right choice for me.
With the obvious implication that 'The right choice for me' is not necessarily the right choice for everyone else, and especially those who don't want to pay a hefty mark-up, and for whom contacting drivers named here will almost always be a mistake.
Jun 19th, 2014, 10:35 PM
#24
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For Bejing local food, do not miss these delicious food.
1. Beijing Roast Duck
The best known are Quanjude and Bianyifang.
2. Old Beijing Zha Jiang Noodle King
Address, 29 Chong Wen Men Wai, Chongwen District
3. Jin Ding Xuan
Address, 77 Hepingli Xijie, Dongcheng District
4. Boiling Fish Village
Address, Behai Park, Beijing
1. Beijing Roast Duck
The best known are Quanjude and Bianyifang.
2. Old Beijing Zha Jiang Noodle King
Address, 29 Chong Wen Men Wai, Chongwen District
3. Jin Ding Xuan
Address, 77 Hepingli Xijie, Dongcheng District
4. Boiling Fish Village
Address, Behai Park, Beijing
Jun 21st, 2014, 05:20 PM
#26
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Temp,
For a 1 day tour I dont think people care that much if they pay a few dollars extra.
While its good to bargain stressing over a few dollars after already paying a 1000 bucks on flights isnt that big a deal.
Over on LP backpackers brag about saving 5 dollars like its some great achievement.
For a 1 day tour I dont think people care that much if they pay a few dollars extra.
While its good to bargain stressing over a few dollars after already paying a 1000 bucks on flights isnt that big a deal.
Over on LP backpackers brag about saving 5 dollars like its some great achievement.
Jun 21st, 2014, 05:44 PM
#27
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"For a 1 day tour I dont think people care that much if they pay a few dollars extra ... stressing over a few dollars after already paying a 1000 bucks on flights isnt that big a deal"
I cared. Having paid a small fortune for my flight, I didn't have much left!
Far more to the point, I don't like contributing to the impression that Westerners are willing to throw their money away or have no appreciation of the value of things. And I don't think it serves Fodorites well to suggest that they need to, or should, pay for a tour or a driver without ALSO pointing out that they have other ways to see whatever -- ways that may cost less and that may offer other benefits.
Money is not the only factor at issue here!
I cared. Having paid a small fortune for my flight, I didn't have much left!
Far more to the point, I don't like contributing to the impression that Westerners are willing to throw their money away or have no appreciation of the value of things. And I don't think it serves Fodorites well to suggest that they need to, or should, pay for a tour or a driver without ALSO pointing out that they have other ways to see whatever -- ways that may cost less and that may offer other benefits.
Money is not the only factor at issue here!
Jun 21st, 2014, 07:24 PM
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<<<Far more to the point, I don't like contributing to the impression that Westerners are willing to throw their money away or have no appreciation of the value of things. >>>
It wasn't throwing money around, it was paying for something that I wanted and was well worth the price to me. I could have gotten out to the GW for less but I didn't want to spend time trying to negotiate with a taxi driver who likely did not speak English and I didn't want to be in a car for the hour or two each way with someone I couldn't talk to. I absolutely loved the GW, but part of the fun of that day was being able to talk to Joe.
It makes sense to me that a driver who speaks a second language fluently would be able to charge more than just any driver. I was more than happy to bargain at the various markets, to eat cheaply and to be careful with my spending. Part of appreciating the value of something is to appreciate the value of the service I'm getting and not just try to get the cheapest way possible.
<<<I don't think it serves Fodorites well to suggest that they need to, or should, pay for a tour or a driver without ALSO pointing out that they have other ways to see whatever -- ways that may cost less and that may offer other benefits.>>>
Of course! Getting various opinions is one of the best things about any travel forum. However, I never said that my way was the only way or even the best way, just that it's what I did and that it worked quite well for me. The OP asked about an awesome driver and I thought the guy I hired was awesome.
It wasn't throwing money around, it was paying for something that I wanted and was well worth the price to me. I could have gotten out to the GW for less but I didn't want to spend time trying to negotiate with a taxi driver who likely did not speak English and I didn't want to be in a car for the hour or two each way with someone I couldn't talk to. I absolutely loved the GW, but part of the fun of that day was being able to talk to Joe.
It makes sense to me that a driver who speaks a second language fluently would be able to charge more than just any driver. I was more than happy to bargain at the various markets, to eat cheaply and to be careful with my spending. Part of appreciating the value of something is to appreciate the value of the service I'm getting and not just try to get the cheapest way possible.
<<<I don't think it serves Fodorites well to suggest that they need to, or should, pay for a tour or a driver without ALSO pointing out that they have other ways to see whatever -- ways that may cost less and that may offer other benefits.>>>
Of course! Getting various opinions is one of the best things about any travel forum. However, I never said that my way was the only way or even the best way, just that it's what I did and that it worked quite well for me. The OP asked about an awesome driver and I thought the guy I hired was awesome.
Jun 21st, 2014, 08:16 PM
#29
"For a 1 day tour I dont think people care that much if they pay a few dollars extra ... stressing over a few dollars after already paying a 1000 bucks on flights isnt that big a deal"
$40 isn't "a few dollars" in my lexicon. And like kja I don't like to give the impression that money doesn't matter. Especially as it does - my last trip to China (too long ago...) was seven weeks. If I didn't care about spending more than I needed it would have been a lot shorter.
"I didn't want to spend time trying to negotiate with a taxi driver who likely did not speak English"
I can appreciate being willing to pay for a driver who speaks English, if that's what you want. However, negotiating with a driver who doesn't speak English is hardly rocket science. You show him the characters for the destination, he shows you his price, you show him yours, etc.
$40 isn't "a few dollars" in my lexicon. And like kja I don't like to give the impression that money doesn't matter. Especially as it does - my last trip to China (too long ago...) was seven weeks. If I didn't care about spending more than I needed it would have been a lot shorter.
"I didn't want to spend time trying to negotiate with a taxi driver who likely did not speak English"
I can appreciate being willing to pay for a driver who speaks English, if that's what you want. However, negotiating with a driver who doesn't speak English is hardly rocket science. You show him the characters for the destination, he shows you his price, you show him yours, etc.
Jun 21st, 2014, 08:23 PM
#30
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Iowa_Redhead now writes, "I never said that my way was the only way or even the best way." But her initial message, above, didn't seem to include that nuance. She wrote: "Hire a driver for the day, it's absolutely worth it!"
So, Iowa_Redhead, let me be clear: I didn't actually say that YOU threw your money around. I spoke about MY preferences and about how MY actions might contribute (or not) to the IMPRESSION that Westerners are willing to do so. FWIW, I think you did probably overpay -- by way of contrast, just months before your trip, I spent $100 for a car, driver, AND English speaking guide for a 15-hour day-trip that included not only the Great Wall at Huangyaguan, but also the Eastern Qing Tombs, various sites associated with the Olympics, and an 8-course lunch. And I am quite certain that I overpaid for that luxury.
I fully understand that there are reasons why Westerners might choose, for any of a variety of reasons, to pay outrageous sums for convenience. I just admitted that I did so! Nonetheless, I think it behooves us to do so with some cognizance of the potential implications, even unintended ones, of doing so. And I think Fodor's is an excellent place for us to educate each other about the potential unintended implications of what we do.
I agree with Peter's assessment: Of course, "You must do what you're comfortable with. ... You may come back and say, 'I don't mind', but that doesn't make this a good recommendation for anyone else."
I'm glad you enjoyed your visit to the Great Wall. I'm glad you told other Fodorites about that experience. I just wish you would place that experience in context.
So, Iowa_Redhead, let me be clear: I didn't actually say that YOU threw your money around. I spoke about MY preferences and about how MY actions might contribute (or not) to the IMPRESSION that Westerners are willing to do so. FWIW, I think you did probably overpay -- by way of contrast, just months before your trip, I spent $100 for a car, driver, AND English speaking guide for a 15-hour day-trip that included not only the Great Wall at Huangyaguan, but also the Eastern Qing Tombs, various sites associated with the Olympics, and an 8-course lunch. And I am quite certain that I overpaid for that luxury.
I fully understand that there are reasons why Westerners might choose, for any of a variety of reasons, to pay outrageous sums for convenience. I just admitted that I did so! Nonetheless, I think it behooves us to do so with some cognizance of the potential implications, even unintended ones, of doing so. And I think Fodor's is an excellent place for us to educate each other about the potential unintended implications of what we do.
I agree with Peter's assessment: Of course, "You must do what you're comfortable with. ... You may come back and say, 'I don't mind', but that doesn't make this a good recommendation for anyone else."
I'm glad you enjoyed your visit to the Great Wall. I'm glad you told other Fodorites about that experience. I just wish you would place that experience in context.
Jun 22nd, 2014, 02:20 AM
#31
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Who cares what others pay?
People on 2 week trips dont stress over a few bucks and 40 dollars isnt much in the west.
If a tourist pays a bit extra that driver might be able to buy his family a decent meal or a few.
If you want to bus it or bargain hard you can do it. If others are happy to pay a generous price so be it. They just made a hard worker happy for a day!
People on 2 week trips dont stress over a few bucks and 40 dollars isnt much in the west.
If a tourist pays a bit extra that driver might be able to buy his family a decent meal or a few.
If you want to bus it or bargain hard you can do it. If others are happy to pay a generous price so be it. They just made a hard worker happy for a day!
Jun 22nd, 2014, 06:57 AM
#32
Overpaying is similar to overtipping - or tipping at all in China. It sets up expectations that affect later travelers, and it distorts the local economy. $40 may be of no account to you, but that is hardly representative of most people. And why do you assume that all Fodors posters are on two week trips? I am certainly not the only poster here who travels for longer.
Jun 22nd, 2014, 11:29 PM
#33
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ditto thursdaysd's message.
I care what others pay, and honestly, you should, too. There ARE ramifications to overpaying, ramifications for both future tourists and the Chinese tourism support infrastructure, which affects not only tourists, but also Chinese citizens (whether on vacation or where they live). Example: If Westerners ramp up the price of taxis in Beijing, even if they do so unintentionally, then EVERYONE who tries to take a taxi in Beijing is affected -- tourists and residents of Beijing alike. And that is a problem, and it is a problem that has been discussed on this board before now.
You are lucky, Prachuap, if $40 means nothing to you. Please stop assuming that it means nothing to the rest of us.
I care what others pay, and honestly, you should, too. There ARE ramifications to overpaying, ramifications for both future tourists and the Chinese tourism support infrastructure, which affects not only tourists, but also Chinese citizens (whether on vacation or where they live). Example: If Westerners ramp up the price of taxis in Beijing, even if they do so unintentionally, then EVERYONE who tries to take a taxi in Beijing is affected -- tourists and residents of Beijing alike. And that is a problem, and it is a problem that has been discussed on this board before now.
You are lucky, Prachuap, if $40 means nothing to you. Please stop assuming that it means nothing to the rest of us.
Jun 23rd, 2014, 05:17 PM
#34
HI aussiedreamer,
One of the experiences we really enjoyed was a morning/lunch cooking class at Black Sesame Kitchen. They're also supposed to do a wonderful dinner, which we had also booked, but jet lag did us in and we cancelled. We took the Metro to the neighborhood where their Hutung was located, and that was also a wonderful walk and experience.
FYI, we did book two days worth of tours through a local tour operator, China HIghlights, which had received great reviews on TripAdvisor…and our tour guide, Gerry, was the best we had in China. If you'd like to refer to my trip report for my details, please see http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...al-islands.cfm.
He also took us to the Mutianyu portion of the Wall, where we spent the night in the wonderful "Brickyard Inn". Hope this helps.
One of the experiences we really enjoyed was a morning/lunch cooking class at Black Sesame Kitchen. They're also supposed to do a wonderful dinner, which we had also booked, but jet lag did us in and we cancelled. We took the Metro to the neighborhood where their Hutung was located, and that was also a wonderful walk and experience.
FYI, we did book two days worth of tours through a local tour operator, China HIghlights, which had received great reviews on TripAdvisor…and our tour guide, Gerry, was the best we had in China. If you'd like to refer to my trip report for my details, please see http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...al-islands.cfm.
He also took us to the Mutianyu portion of the Wall, where we spent the night in the wonderful "Brickyard Inn". Hope this helps.
Jun 23rd, 2014, 05:31 PM
#35
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It is not nothing but its not the end of the world. People who go several times will bargain and pay local prices. People who go once arent going to stress over it.
Locals and expats are not affected by the prices tourists pay. There are thousands of drivers competing for customers.
The millions of tourists to Thailand dont affect the prices I pay.
Locals and expats are not affected by the prices tourists pay. There are thousands of drivers competing for customers.
The millions of tourists to Thailand dont affect the prices I pay.
Jun 23rd, 2014, 05:41 PM
#36
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"Locals and expats are not affected by the prices tourists pay. There are thousands of drivers competing for customers."
Even four years ago, I was told by several Chinese people who shared my train that they no longer count on being able to get a taxi at the main train station in Beijing because the drivers who stop there now only serve foreigners, who won’t insist on the meter and who give tips. I found it incredibly difficult to get a metered cab there. The metered cab that I finally found (after an official intervened) cost 29 yuan – a far cry from the “discounted” rate of 150 to 250 yuan the drivers of the non-metered taxis tried to convince me to take.
Even four years ago, I was told by several Chinese people who shared my train that they no longer count on being able to get a taxi at the main train station in Beijing because the drivers who stop there now only serve foreigners, who won’t insist on the meter and who give tips. I found it incredibly difficult to get a metered cab there. The metered cab that I finally found (after an official intervened) cost 29 yuan – a far cry from the “discounted” rate of 150 to 250 yuan the drivers of the non-metered taxis tried to convince me to take.
Jun 23rd, 2014, 05:45 PM
#37
Ten years ago, the last time I was in Beijing, there was never any question about taxi drivers using the meter. And no question about tips either - they would be refused. I am sorry to hear that thoughtless and self-aggrandizing foreigners have been ruining things.
Jun 23rd, 2014, 10:36 PM
#39
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"I am sorry to hear that thoughtless and self-aggrandizing foreigners have been ruining things."
Foreigners -- even those who are extremely well-intentioned (if ill-informed), may have made some things -- like taxi prices -- much worse. But I didn't think they are ruining Beijing itself, which remains fascinating. (And I don't think that's what thursdaysd meant -- I'm speaking more generally.)
I think the pollution that areas in and around Beijing (and other parts of China) produce may pose the biggest problems for Beijing and other parts of China and other countries downwind.
And efforts to make various sites "accessible" to Westerners -- what I call the "Disney-fication" of China -- may help keep some places from being razed, but at the sad loss of part of this country's magnificent cultural heritage. I hope I am mistaken.
@ aussiedreamer -- I know that some of these comments have moved far afield of your questions, but hope that you are finding some valuable information nonetheless!
Foreigners -- even those who are extremely well-intentioned (if ill-informed), may have made some things -- like taxi prices -- much worse. But I didn't think they are ruining Beijing itself, which remains fascinating. (And I don't think that's what thursdaysd meant -- I'm speaking more generally.)
I think the pollution that areas in and around Beijing (and other parts of China) produce may pose the biggest problems for Beijing and other parts of China and other countries downwind.
And efforts to make various sites "accessible" to Westerners -- what I call the "Disney-fication" of China -- may help keep some places from being razed, but at the sad loss of part of this country's magnificent cultural heritage. I hope I am mistaken.
@ aussiedreamer -- I know that some of these comments have moved far afield of your questions, but hope that you are finding some valuable information nonetheless!
Jun 23rd, 2014, 11:01 PM
#40
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Chinese are doing a great job at trashing their own country. If anything opening up to the west exposes the pollution problems more and more will be done to address it.
Generous tourists also help lift people out of poverty.
Generous tourists also help lift people out of poverty.
