susiesan

You think $982 for 4 days is a good value and reasonable? I looked up the individual hotel prices and if I booked them on my own it comes to $335. Phoenix is $113, Manohara $77 inc. Borobudur entrance, Berg View is $57, and Roemahkoe is $86. Those are published rates before any discounts I might get from using Agoda or Asiarooms.

The going rate for a driver is $63 a day x 4 equals $252. So actual costs are about $587 plus a few admissions. What is all the extra money going for? $245 a day seems expensive for Indonesia.

I got these prices quoted from viavia.com for a car:
"You can also rent a car from us with the driver and fuel included.
It costs Rp 515.000/ 10 hours in town and Rp 615.000/ day out town."

I know you all like Wiedy and use his services but I'm going to have to think about touring with him. If I decide not to use his company I hope you all won't stop giving advice.

Marmot, I may just stay in Yogya every night except for 1 night at Manohara to be close to Borobudur.

Kathie

Heavens! While I like Weidy, I don't think he walks on water - that's Stan who thinks that. I don't believe marmot has ever used his services, and the only other person here on Fodors I know that has used his services is Stan. I'll be glad to continue to give you my opinions, no matter what you decide to do.

In our experience, Weidy's prices are complete - there are no other charges. Indeed, he took us out to dinner with his family, his treat. Do the hotel prices you quote include breakfast, tax and service?

Also, you will have driving days (or at least one day) that will be more than 10 hours - our day to Borobudur and the Dieng Plateau was about 15 hours. You also haven't figured in other admission fees (usually $5-$10 each) - to Dieng, to Solo, to Prambanaan, to the kratons in both Yogya and Solo, to Candi Sukuh, nor the guides at Borobudur, Prambanan, the Solo kraton. Also, you will have the Ramayana ballet tickets (can't remember the price, but certainly more than $10 each), and that day will include two trips back and forth to Prambanan. I doubt that the generic quote you go from viavia would include that much driving (and I doubt that it includes a gratuity for the driver). Also note that some of the drives Weidy describes for you are off the beaten track and would not be included in a standard car and driver rate - see day 3 for instance.

You might well be able to do it on your own for less. But you will have a fair number of extra costs you haven't figured in.

susiesan

The difference in the cost for one person and two is $332. The costs for the hotel and car would be the same whether 1 or 2 people are in it. So that would mean there will be $332 worth of admissions, ballet tickets, etc. to account for the price difference. Surely admission fees in Indonesia are not that expensive?

I will run this by the people on TA who live in Java and see what they say about the price. maybe I am being unrealistic in my expectations.

Kathie

You are traveling alone? Then that does reduce admission costs, adding in my head from memory, I'd say for one, we are talking nearly $100 in admission fees. Add in guides at three places and the extra driving (airport transfers as well as a couple of long days) and decide whether it is worth it to you. Note that marmot lives in Bali after many years of living in Jakarta, so I trust her judgment.

Kathie

susiean, if you are looking for the cheapest way to see the highlights of central Java, this isn't it. I had the idea from your previous posts that you wanted seamless trip - all of the logistics taken care of. If that is what you are looking for - this is it.

susiesan

Kathie, I'm looking for a combination of economical with some free days of do-it-yourself and some prearranged tours. I have planned many trips to Asia before where we made all of our own arrangements, all on our own without any tours other than what we booked locally on the ground. In 2010 we went to Cambodia and Laos. I had a driver and guide for 4 days in Siem Reap prearraged. We booked local things to do, day trips and tours, once we got to Luang Prababng and Phnom Penh. The year we went to Vietnam for 2 weeks in 2006 we had a 2 week trip completely planned and paid for that came with a guide who traveled with us from Hanoi to Saigon. It was unbelievably inexpensive even with 2 domestic flights included.

For the prior week on Bali I will do a combination of winging it once we get there and a driver lined up for some of the days. Once I figure out how long we want to spend on Java, I can work on the Bali part. Hopefully marmot will chime in when I am asking about trip planning for Bali.

No, I am not alone but traveling with my husband. I only used Wiedy's cost for a single versus couple price to try and understand about the cost difference. If admissions for the places on his tour are about $100 more, then the tour for 2 people should be $750, or $375 each. That would be a reasonable price. I will email him and ask for a cost breakdown and explanation.

marmot

susie, I've never met Weidy and I've never used a guide in Java. A car with a driver, yes. A guide, no.

What is really essential to me is a reliable driver who knows where he's going and doesn't make unscheduled stops or ask for unexpected expenses. The distances are greater and the driving conditions are worse than you might imagine.

You just can't anticipate everything that can go wrong in Java and it's comforting to have a driver that you can communicate with who can can explain the options. I speak Indonesian and have lived in the country for nearly 20 years, and even then, I'm often bewildered by events.

[I once had a minor road accident with an Amanjiwo driver in the mountains around Magelang. He said we'd have to wait 3 hours for a relief car. In the end, my client -- who was a senior vice president of a Fortune 500 company! -- repaired the damage and we were on our way.]

My comments were based on USD650, not USD982. I'm sure if you take the "a la carte" approach you can do better, but then you have to make all the arrangements yourself. As has been noted on this board many times, it's not so easy to get straight answers in Indonesia, especially from afar.

Hotel rates, like airfares, are all over the place, so no doubt you can get better offers. Most likely Weidy would get good rates too. Remember to add 21% tax (or "plus plus" as they say here) and to check that breakfast is included. It's quite common for Indonesian hotels to charge more for double occupancy.

I'm doubtful that you can get a reliable car and driver for USD63 for 10 hours these days, especially once you get off the Yogya-Borobudur beaten track. I'd say the "going rate" is more like IDR80,000 to 100,000 an hour, not including the guide. Maybe more for the amount of driving you're doing.

The drive through the mountain passes that Weidy describes is extraordinarily beautiful, but most drivers prefer the faster and easier route. Gasoline is quite high, and if you go through a service or a hotel there will be a value added tax too.

susiesan

marmot: I appreciate your input coming from someone who actually lives in Indonesia. I know that travel in SE Asia can be frustrating as things don't always go according to plan. I keep hearing about how domestic flights are almost never on time and I'm factoring that into the equation.

I did get a quote from a Yogya company called ViaVia Travel, recommended in the LP book, to do this same tour for the following cost:

"For this tour, we will charge you Rp. 3.690.000 for the car.
Do you need a guide for this trip? It will be Rp 4.940.000 in total.
It includes the car, driver, fuel and parking fees.
It excludes entrances, hotels and meals."

So in dollars, adding in booking the hotels myself I'm at $848 before admissions with a driver and guide. I will ask Wiedy if he can do any better with the price. Wiedy's tour does not have a guide with us the whole time, only a driver. And I don't know if the driver speaks English or not. So except at Borodbudur and Prambanan, we won't know what we are looking at or get an explanation.

Maybe if he takes out the airport pick up and drop off, and we eliminate one night's lodging away from Yogyakarta I can get the cost lower. I may see these same sights as day trips from Yogya, returning there each night to the same hotel. I have plenty of time to plan this all out. Who knows-I may even change my mind about where to go on Java. Until I actually buy the plane tickets from Bali to Java I'm not locked into any set plan.

marmot

Via Via Travel's website is very cool. Lots of good ideas for things to do and see in the area.

I would also recommend getting a copy of Golden Tales of the Buddhas for a shortcourse on Borobudur.

MmePerdu

"...So except at Borodbudur and Prambanan, we won't know what we are looking at or get an explanation."

Susiesan, I think you may be putting more emphasis than is necessary on having an explanation of everything that you may see. I found the area very easy going, the people lovely and enjoyed myself immensely and it never occurred to me that I might need a guide to tell me why I was enjoying it. My point is not to say that a guide is useless but just to suggest that, if cost is a factor, I who have almost never had a private guide have not felt at all deprived and certainly not in Java.

Kathie

I'm not one who wants a guide with me all the time. I know it is a matter of personal preference. We did not have a guide, just a driver except at Borobudur and Prambanan and at the kraton at Solo. Our driver spoke passable English, though he apologized at times for not being able to give complex explanations. The only other place we went that you might want a guide is Candi Sukuh. I'd been there 20 years ago, and we chose not to have a guide for this small temple. If you have read your guidebook, the only other place I can think of where you might want a guide is the kraton in Yogya.

Note that viavia excludes all admission fees which will be about $100 of each of you. When you check hotel prices to compare, make sure the price you get includes tax and service. Did you ask viavia for the same route Weidy described or did you just list destinations? Sine you are comparison shopping, make sure you are comparing apples with apples... oh, and do ask if their driver speaks English.

susiesan

When I asked viavia for their cost I copied the exact itinerary from Wiedy to them. I asked them to price the exact same route. When I checked hotel prices, I did include the tax and service, and made sure breakfast was included.

A friend on flyertalk made this suggestion:

<DAY 1: Arrive Yogya (Adisuscipto-Solo Airport), car pickup directly to Borobudur and drop at Manohara Hotel. Evening in Borobudur village. If you get into Yogya earlier...say around 13:00, you'd have time to get on the monument in the late afternoon also for a different view/feeling.

DAY 2: Borobudur for sunrise. Breakfast, then car pickup for nearby Mendut Temple (won't take long) and Kaliurang village for Merapi viewing. Back to Yogya for check-in to hotel, lunch. Afternoon sightseeing which frankly, you can do on your own. What's of interest is fairly concentrated and can be seen on foot, or with a becak (like a cyclo/autorickshaw/etc) ride.

DAY 3: Prambanan, just get a taxi from hotel. This only takes about 3 hours even done leisurely. More sightseeing and shopping (Yogya is one of the better places for Indonesian handicrafts but watch out for the schlocky fake "old" batiks), evening Ramayana ballet. Doable on your own.

DAY 4: Early rise and breakfast, car to Solo either with guide in tow, or get a guide for the day meet you there. I think you'll find that anything of interest in Solo will fit in that day. If you examine the Solo part of the itinerary you provided, you'll see there's not that much "meat" there.

In summary, my inclination would be to do my own hotel arrangements directly, do meals and entry fees on my own in real-time, and contract only for the private car with driver services for JOG-Borobudur, Borobudur-Yogya via Merapi, and Yogya-Solo-Yogya as a daytrip. If you want an English-speaking guide for the major sites (Borobudur, Prambanan, Sultan's Palace), it's really better/cheaper just to get one of the official ones at each location.>

I can add Candi Suku and Cetho to the Solo day trip I'm sure.

We do like wandering around on our own in cities so wouldn't need a guide all the time. We could stay in Yogya a few more nights and do some of ViaVia Travels courses or activities.

Kathie

Goood. It sounds like you are collecting the information oyu will need to make a decision that fits your style of travel.

susiesan

I heard back from Wiedy with a revised tour and price breakdown.
Assuming we arrive at JOG in the afternoon, here's the plan now:
DAY 1 ARRIVAL FROM DENPASAR BALI, GARUDA AIRLINE
• Arrive at the airport
• Pick up service
• Drive one hour to Borobudur
• Hotel check in
• Overnight at Manohara Hotel

DAY 2 BOROBUDUR - FULL DAY DIENG PLATEAU
• The temple is 200 meter walk from your room
• Morning visit the temple with tour guide
• 08.30 Hotel check out, full day tour to Dieng Plateau
• Drive through villages, nice views, mountain, volcano, agriculture.
• Also see local people, farming, sulphur spring, color lake, ancient temples
• Lunch time will be at Wonosobo regency
• Drive back to Magelang for overnight
• Overnight at Berg View

DAY 3 MAGELANG - SOLO
• We drive to Solo Via Selo (between Merapi and MErbabu volcanoes)
• Visit Sukuh and Cetho temple
• Drive to Solo and enjoy the ancient Solo city
• Overnight at ROEMAHKU Solo.

DAY 4 MORNING SOLO CITY TOUR
• Visit Mangkunegaran Palace, Museum, Flea Market and Batik village
• Lunch time is in Solo city
• Afternoon, drive back to Yogyakarta and visit Prambanan
• Visit the temple is 2 - 3 hour
• There are many hidden temples there
• Proceed for Ramayana Ballet performance (Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday) or will see the schedule
• Overnight at Phoenix Heritage Yogyakarta

DAY 5 CITY TOUR
• City tour Yogyakarta
• Sultan Palace, Water Castle, Traditional Batik and Silver home industry

If I pull out the hotels and pay for those separately, and eliminate the sunrise tour at Borobudur, I get a price of $432 for 2 which includes the admissions and ballet tickets. he will personally be our guide at Borbudur and Yogya area, he says. The driver will speak English for those days.

He has put a tax/service charge of 10% on everything I pay him for. Is this customary for Indonesia? Is this his profit? I know there is 20% tax on hotel rooms.

I would then stay 2 nights more in Yogya giving us a day and half of free time to do what we want.I have to be sure to get some shopping in and a massage or 2. So I have a combo tour and do-it-yourself time in central java.

Wiedy says I may get a better deal at the hotels by booking online and paying separately, so he's okay with that. I can look at other hotels as the months go by, maybe some place else may pique my interest and become the hot new place to stay. I do have Starwood points that I can use to stay for free at the Sheraton Mustika in Yogya.

Kathie

As per your question about tax and service. The total of tax (11%) and service (10%) for hotels is 21%. By adding service to his services, it means you do not need to tip - that is figured into the price. So your driver, guides, etc get something from that service charge.

Is there a reason you are taking out the sunrise tour at Borobudur? The only reason I can think of to stay at the Manohara is if you want to visit Borobudur at sunrise. Getting into Borobudur before it officially opens is expensive, but your stay at the Manohara includes the price of admission.

I think your itinerary covers the places you would want to see in central Java.

marmot

A 10% value added tax is added to all goods and services. Small companies sometimes "forget" about this tax, but any company with a proper accounting process adds it on. Hotels are plus/plus, i.e., 10%VAT + 11% hotel tax.

The thing to watch with on-line bookings is what the cancellation and/or change charges are.

susiesan

The sunrise tour at Manohara is extra charge:

<Package Price :
Foreigner Visitor : IDR 380.000 per person
Domestic Visitor : IDR 250.000 per person
In house guest (who staying at Manohara): IDR 230.000 per person>

If it happens to be a cloudy day, you don't get the sunrise. From what I've been reading in people's trip reports, going in at 6:00am with the included admission would be almost the same thing. It looks like the day tours from Yogya don't show up that early. Again, I might change my mind about this when we get there.

Thanks for clearing up about taxes and service charges as relates to tipping. I was aware of that for hotel bookings, looking at the final cost with taxes.

Kathie

We stayed in Yogya and arrived at Borobudur at 6 am, just before the visitors' center opened. So you can certainly do it from Yogya if you want. But you are right that tour groups don't show up that early.

marmot

You'd be surprised how many people -- especially Indonesians -- can show up at Borobudur for the 6:00 a.m. opening. The whole country is up and about at 4:30 for prayers.

What I like about the predawn experience is that you approach the monument in complete darkness, just a few flashlight spots. You climb the ancient stairs, find a seat on the ancient stones among the watchful buddhas. Then, slowly, the day lightens and the sky and mountains come into view. Sometimes you get a spectacular sunrise, sometimes just a glow, but either way it's a moving experience.

In any event, I always recommend starting at the base and circumnavigating clockwise around every layer. This is how pilgrims were meant to absorb the teachings of Borobudur.