welltraveledbrit

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you, we've been traveling. I SO appreciate everyone's replies and I'm delighted to find such great support and info from those of you familiar with this part of the world.

Thanks Mr. Singh, everyone we've spoke with has talked about the friendliness of the Pakistani people. Thanks Thursdaysd - I was interested to hear you did this with Intrepid. I'm heading off to see your photos, it often seems I find myself traveling in your footprints. Wild Frontiers has been running this trip twice a year for several years and unlike when I looked at this before a number of local agents will now do full cross border trips. Mmeperdu - I appreciate hearing about your experience too - I think you're California based do give me a buzz if you find yourself in the East Bay it would be great to meet sometime!

Temppeternh - what can I say? Thanks so very much for taking the time share such helpful information, it gives me a sense for the journey and the difference in these towns/areas. As you know most of the guidebooks from these areas are now 10 plus years since publication so it's a little difficult to plan - but then I suppose the geography remains the same. I take your mention of the Chinese visa seriously. I've only been to China once (to visit a friend doing fieldwork in Yunnan ten years ago). I went to the consulate in SF but was turned down twice when I applied in the US and finally got a last minute visa for China in Bangkok, it was a grand fuss and something I's prefer not to go through again.

Kja to you or anyone else who is interested I found a wonderful blog covering a 2016 journey by two Americans through this area which was very helpful and others might enjoy too. One of the best travel blogs I've seen in years...they covers the entire journey from China but here's a link to the Pakistani section.
Pakistan ? Ali Karim Travelog

We are still in the information gathering phase and haven't decided to go for certain, but Pakistan is at the top of my list, You can now even get a visa on arrival if you go through certain local travel agents which is a big plus.

Part of the question we still have is whether to do the journey from Kashgar or to spend our trip entirely within Paikistan? Frankly after my prior hassles obtaining a Chinese visa (albeit around the Olympic when they were very strict) I'm almost tempted to forget China but I would love to see Kashgar and travel the KKH...

Thanks everyone and happy travels! I'll let you know how this shapes up for us and whether we decide to go....happy to hear any additional advice/thoughts you might have....

thursdaysd

I think you are definitely more "welltraveled" than I am - Sudan is not on my go-to list, even assuming I can still travel.

If you mean that Kashgar is the only place you would visit in China, I don't think that staying on the Pakistani side is such a bad idea. I thought the scenery, while great both sides of the border, was better in Pakistan. Plus, everything I have heard about Kashgar lately (although I am sure Peter has better sources) says that it has been badly Hanified. However, I would urge you to consider traveling further into China. The trek across Xinjiang province was fascinating.

welltraveledbrit

Thanks Thursday!
I mean travel from Kashgar (possibly seeing more of the region first) then down the KKH or fly in and out of Pakistan and focus just on one country.

thursdaysd

I think that if you only see Kashgar you might as well skip China. Having gone to the trouble of getting the visa why not use it!

welltraveledbrit

We'd either do Kashgar and some of Western China or travel overland from Bishek to Kashgar...

kja

@ welltraveledbrit: Thanks for the blog recommendation!

temppeternh

A warning on that: Unless the rules have recently changed, you may not enter the border area on the Kyrgyz side unless with an officially registered Kyrgyz tour company, and be similarly met at the top of the Torugart by a Chinese one.

Think cleaners, and taken to.

Also note that Chinese tourist visas have long been unobtainable in Bishkek, and on the tough side in Almaty (although I did manage it once--but given the situation in Xinjiang probably also impossible at the moment). You'll certainly need a visa before reaching Central Asia.

People were doing the Irkeshtam independently at one point, and that may still be possible, although there was no transport available and a bit of hitching going on to get across the border. I did manage to cross the Torugart independently from the Kashgar side once, but it was a little hairy--the sort of story you tell at dinner parties. Something involving a school bus and being left in a tough negotiating position on the Kyrgyz side. I have friends who managed the Irkeshtam crossing without too much difficulty, in each direction.

I have some material on all this I'll post when I have time.

welltraveledbrit

Thanks temppeternh!
Yes - I'd plan to apply for the Chinese visa in the US where I have residency.
If we take the route from Bishkek I would used a local agence to assist in crossing the border. I realize the consequences, as you say
"Think cleaners, and taken to..." but believe me it is FAR cheaper than the tour option so I guess it's all relative....
Again thanks again for your help.

temppeternh

Here's a description of the route from Bishkek to Kashgar from some time ago. Again, if you want this in print, look on abebooks.com or similar for a second-hand copy of 'China: The Silk Routes'. I haven't had time to edit out some of the practical advice on accommodation, prices, trekking companies, etc. but what follows will be mostly useful (if it is) for the description of the route, some of the history (and some possible further reading), and the sights on the way.


‘We are a small Switzerland,’ was one of the slogans of the early days of Kyrgyz independence, and in terms of mountain scenery this was perhaps an understatement. A Swiss standard of living is however much further off than over-optimistic politicians may have been suggesting. If anything Kyrgyzstan, a country of merely 4.5 million people, seems more like Andorra, and like Andorra has little chance of development except through tourism. Of the new republics’ visas, Kyrgyz ones are the easiest to obtain.

Bishkek sits a mere 40km from the base of the snowy Kyrgyz Ala-Too range, which towers at the end of every north-south artery, and the road from here to the border at Torugart winds over 3000m passes and alongside the Tiänshän’s sharpest peaks before leaping into China. The city is a smaller, sleepier version of Almaty, but it’s also even greener, considerably more relaxed, and slightly cheaper.

There’s also less of an overt mafiosi presence, less traffic, and less pollution, although the partial collapse of industry is one of the reasons for this. Local people estimate that growing Kyrgyz nationalism has led to fully 25% of the Russian population leaving for Russia, and almost all Germans leaving for Germany, but unfortunately these were the people with the technical and administrative skills to keep things running. Emigration has slowed, but GDP is still in decline. Sneering at Kyrgyz management and administrative skills has become a popular pastime amongst remaining Russians, although they have been treated with considerably more liberality than in some of the other new republics. Unlike in Kazakstan, there have been moves to make Russian an official language , and dual nationality with the Russian Federation is acceptable. Most renamed streets have kept their old signs next to the new, and Lenin still stands in the former Ploschad Lenina. Some people say that the Kyrgyz can’t quite believe the truth of their independence, and fearful that things may return to ‘normal’ at short notice, are hedging their bets.

Now free to move around as they please, many rural Kyrgyz have come to Bishkek, but most remain jobless. Privatisation and administrative reforms have been more thorough and widespread than elsewhere, making President Akayev the international financial community’s favourite central asian leader, although not quite the pure democrat they had hoped. Backed by a a $74 million IMF loan, and despite inflation of more than 30%, the Kyrgyz som is the most stable currency in Central Asia, rarely moving from around 12 to the $US. Kyrgyzstan increasingly looks towards China for trade, although the results are far from romantic Silk Route revivalism. The Kyrgyz complain that China tends to dump on them shoddy goods that cannot be sold in wealthier or more sophisticated markets, and the Osh Bazaar in Bishkek is awash with the results. Bartering is back on a large scale however, as Kyrgyzstan trades electricity from its numerous Tiänshän hydro-electric plants for Xïnjiäng gas.

Like Almaty, Bishkek is thoroughly Russified in clothing, drinking, and general attitudes, although religious problems may a little nearer the surface. In 1996 the State Mufti declared the willingness of Kyrgyz muslims to carry out the Khomeini fatwa against the writer Salman Rushdie, also suggesting that Central Asian clerics would have issued the decree themselves, had not the Ayatollah beaten them to it.

Bishkek began life under the name of Pishpek as a fortress built in 1852 by the Khan of Khokhand, before being overrun by the Russians in their southward expansion 10 years later. Miles from anywhere, its promotion to the status of town in 1878 made little difference until following the Bolshevik Revolution it was further promoted to the status of capital of the Kyrgyz Soviet Republic under the new name of Frunze in 1926. Following independence it reverted to Kyrgyz version of its earlier name. It’s centre sports a number of substantial, cubic, marble-encrusted office buildings which are neither unattractive nor altogether out of keeping with the Russified neo-classicism of earlier ones. Yet this grandeur seems surprising in what otherwise is an altogether sleepier town than Almaty, most of its streets and even the showcase centrepiece of Ala-too (formerly Lenin) Square largely empty of people. Part of Bishkek’s charm is that just one block away from Lenin himself are cottages with gardens full of chickens.

temppeternh

Biskek to Kashgar

You are more likely to be entering Kyrgyzstan by this route than leaving it, due to the difficulties imposed by the Chinese. The situation is similar to that of the early days of the Karakoram Highway from Pakistan, as there are still no regular through buses in either direction, and entry into China depends on the acquisition of permits and expensive CITS or other state travel company assistance. Chinese visas valid for the Torugart Pass will not be issued in Bishkek without confirmation of a booked tour. The pass is open all year round for those vehicles that can tackle it, but it is always closed at weekends, and on all Kyrgyz and Chinese public holidays (see p.XX for a list) , including 1 August, the anniversary of the founding of the People’s Liberation Army, which is ignored by almost everyone else in China. Open Mon–Fri, 9–12 and 2–3.30.

For independent and organised travellers this crossing can be tricky, depending as it does on a combination of somewhat bloody-minded border authorities, both of whom regard this border as particularly sensitive, despite recent exchanges of presidential visits and talk of demilitarization. Having the right paperwork and the right amount of patience makes it possible. The Kyrgyz have become more tolerant of the significant numbers of disconsolate returnees from the Chinese side, and now allow re-admission to Kyrgyzstan without too much fuss (athough this may depend on who is on duty).

If you are on an unaccompanied organised tour absolutely insist that your travel company issues you with a copy of a fax, letter, or telex clearly naming the Chinese travel company responsible for collecting you, their contact phone number in Kashgar, the date you will cross the border, and the number of people in your party, preferably with a list of their names and nationalities. Chinese travel companies are universally unreliable, and if your transport does not appear you will be turned back to Kyrgyzstan. If you have the document described above, there is a slight possibility that further investigation will be made, and you might possibly be allowed to proceed on buses returning to the Chinese post, but probably not. Without this document you are certainly lost. Kyrgyz travel company vehicles will now usually wait while you complete Kyrgyz border formalities and then take you the a 20 minute drive between the main Kyrgyz post and the first Chinese one, about 12km in all, and topping the pass jsut after half way. If your Chinese transportation is not there, try to make the vehicle that brought you wait until it arrives. If it won’t, and you are sent back, your options are set out under ‘To Kyrgyzstan via the Torugart Pass.’ See p.XX.

Cyclists are usually allowed to cross no-man’s land under their own steam, and pedestrians sometimes walk it. There’s a bus which shuttles between the two borders for $5, ¥40, or 50 som. Tenge and Deutschmark equivalents are probably also acceptable. Under no circumstances will you be allowed to board the minibuses down to the main border post 104km inside China, or to cycle there, but must have pre-booked transport waiting for you, and a fax or telex to prove it. (You can cycle again once in Kashgar.) Otherwise you will be turned back. Various travel agencies in Bishkek have direct contact with Kashgar ones, or you can fax or telex directly yourself. See Kashgar p.XX for contact information.

In a good four wheel drive or minibus the trip to the main border post takes about two hours. Put your watches forwards three hours in winter and two in summer to Beijing time which is used for all official notices of starting and opening times, and all times in this book. Xïnjiäng time, used only in speech, is the same as Kyrgyz summer time, one hour later in winter. The Chinese border post is open Mon–Fri, 10–1 and 4.30–6. Here is where the major border formalities are completed. You may be asked to complete a health questionnaire and declaration form. Neither is important, but keep the declaration form in case you are asked for it when you leave, although unlike in the CIS this is no longer of much importance. There are unreliable money changing facilities, but since your transport will be taking you directly to Kashgar you can change money there.

Kyrghyzintourist in Bishkek has contact with CITS via telex to Kashgar, but despite originally being from the same school of high prices and surliness, even they despair of successfully despatching people there. They obtain confirmation telexes, but the Chinese vehicle often fails to turn up on the other side, and permission to enter China is therefore refused. They will take you to their yurt camp at Naryn for an overnight stay, and then up to the old Chinese border post the next morning, and sometimes on to the new one. A car taking up to four people costs $400. An overnight stay in the yurt camp costs $45 per person including full board (not recommended—but they can arrange homestays instead for around $10 per person per night including meals). CITS’ fee for collecting you at the old Chinese post will be a further ¥1200 ($145) per vehicle, and probably the same if they only come as far as the new post, 104km nearer Kashgar.

Companies such as Dostuck Trekking offer short tours: overnight accommodation in Bishkek (private apartment); drive by jeep to Son-kul (a superb track, see below) and camp; drive to Tash Rabat and do some walking, camp; drive to Torugart the next day. ‘Full service’ including first night’s accommodation and food, sleeping bags, tents and all necessary equipment, english-speaking guide, all meals (better food than most restaurants), transport, fuel, entrance fees, etc. would cost around $650 for two, but telex, fax, or email for an up-to-date quote. The more of you there are, the more equipment of your own you bring, and the more you do for yourselves, the less it costs per person.

From Bishkek’s west bus station you can take a private bus to Naryn, and further buses may take you a little further, such as to At-Bashi, but there are no buses to the border, and you will be reduced to chartering a taxi or private car, or hitching. Private cars willing to undertake the trip all the way from Bishkek to the border may be found at the bus station, railway station, and Osh Bazaar. Be clear about how many people will be in the vehicle, when you will leave, and whether you will spend the night on the way (usual, and it’s helpful to get an early start at the border next day). You’ll get the best deal by going to the bus station and negotiating with a Bishkek car to leave the next day (in which case you can be collected from your hotel) or by being prepared to leave immediately with someone on their way back to At-Bashi or Naryn. Don’t be surprised if you are handed over to another friend or family member part-way, say at Naryn, in which case making a partial payment is fine. You can also look for vehicles by asking staff at your hotel or homestay if they know anyone.

If you stand by the side of the road and hitch, expect to pay at least as much as a bus fare, and probably the same as if you’d haggled with a vehicle directly in the first place. Don’t use your thumb, but simply hold out your arm and wave the vehicles down. It is pointless to proceed to the border intending to cross unless you have an invitation and transport meeting you on the Chinese side, or a taste for u-turns; but it is worth proceeding almost as far as the border simply for the sake of the scenery, however.

The unpredictable Chinese-run occasional bus service between Bishkek and Kashgar has now ceased, and several travellers were turned off this for not having booked transport to meet them anyway.

Being turned back by the Chinese has a long and glorious history. In 1919 Paul Nazaroff, participant in a failed anti-Bolshevik insurrection and a fugitive from Lenin’s secret police, who had been on the run and in disguise for more than a year, finally escaped over the Torugart into China. His enthusiasm at reaching a Chinese border post rings oddly now:

The white-washed walls of the room were hung with Chinese newspapers from Shanghai with advertisements and notices in English, which gladdened my eyes, as proof that I had reached the confines of the civilised world, that, God be praised! I was now in a burjiu [bourgeois] country and that I had really extricated myself from that oppressive, murky, hermetically sealed crypt, the Land of Communism.

Paul Nazaroff, Hunted Through Central Asia, 1932

He was turned back.

‘The brain of the Chinaman,’ he observed bitterly, ‘is constructed on a totally different design from that of the rest of mankind, and the laws of logic and the ordinary feelings of humanity are utterly foreign to him.’

temppeternh

The road to China is first of all the road to the Issyk-Kul, the nearest thing to a holiday resort in Kyrgyzstan, where the nomenklatura dallied during the Soviet period, and Kyrgyz who can afford it still do. The road at first goes east running parallel to the Kygyz Ala-Too, turning south for a short while through the gorge of the River Chu, before carrying on eastwards until 20km short of the lake it forks southwards again. Those continuing straight on towards Balikchi instead for a view of the lake will find themselves paying money to the police at a road barrier; about 50 som ($4.20) per vehicle. There is another turning to the south side of Issyk-Kul further on at Sary-Bulak, where there are also a few places to eat.

The road south deteriorates slightly as it crosses the 3300m pass at Dolon, but improves again afterwards. There is a road maintenance depot here, but the state of the Kyrgyz economy means that there is likely to be little work done in the foreseeable future, and especially beyond Naryn the road is likely to continue to deteriorate. If you are in a jeep, the best route is via Lake Son-Kul (see below).

There’s an aerial view of Naryn (ç‡˚Ì), which seems more attractive before the road drops steeply down to it. Seven hours from Bishkek, it is small and unappealing, and in winter is the coldest city in Kyrgyzstan. It has one hotel, the last before Torugart, but to which camping at Son-Kul or Tash Rabat (see below) on even on the moon would be preferable. This, the Hotel Ala-Too is filthy and basic with an appalling café, and costs 15 som ($1.25) for a single or 30 som ($2.50) for a double, both with bath. It would be better to talk to local people about taking you in, and better to eat on the street. Another alternative is the clean and friendly Gastinitsya Tilek, on Prospekt Lenina. As you enter Naryn turn left along Lenina, and the guest house is a little way down set back from the road on the right. 20 som ($1.70) per bed. Things were better in 1908 when the Macartney family passed through on its way back to England for a holiday, Catherine Macartney commenting on the good Russian shops and houses. According to Paul Nazaroff, by 1920 the Bolsheviks had shot every European in Naryn bar two old men for being bourgeois.

The road descends slightly and crosses a fertile plain, running south-west parallel to the At-Bashi range, and reaching the turning to the town of At-Bashi after about 30km. There are occasional yurts with friendly Kyrgyz serving simple meals, Russian tea from wood-fired and ornate samovars, and vodka—keep an eye on your driver. Encampment horses and dogs may have the idea that you should share something with them. With steaming chunks of lamb and hunks of bread, this makes the perfect introduction to Kyrgystan if you are entering from China.

The turning to At-Bashi is as far as buses are likely to take you, about 145km from the pass, unless you carry on into the town itself, where there is a rudimentary hotel. After a further 48km or so and the surfaced road is reduced to gravel, stones, and holes. The main border post is about two hours away. Despite the obvious attractions of trekking around here do not stray from the road unless you have the triple permissions required, and a reliable guide. There are long sections of electrified fence—probably powerless but discouraging.

At the 74km marker (counting down towards the border) there is the small settlement, with tiny boys atop large horses, and 15 minutes later the outer checkpost where you must show your passport. There is an ugly military encampment and shooting ranges for troops to practice, but the guards are friendly to foreigners. The road having swung in a loop around the end of the At-Bashi range, and now doubles back on itself to run east and then north-east between the massive Tiän Shän and the cool, smooth sweep of Chatyr-kul. A few yurts are dotted about the lush grazing, and mounted nomads tend herd of sheep, cows, and hobbled horses. The road turns sharply south and climbs to the main border post, before disintegrating completely as it crosses the 3752m Torugart Pass to China. Your driver will be unable to take you past the main border post unless he has a special permit. Taxis (haggle) and buses (50 som or $5) will offer instead, or you can attempt to hitch with a tanker.

There is simple accommodation available at the main border post on the Kyrgyz side, either in wooden caravans with no sanitary facilities, or in a beaten up hotel that’s little better (20–25 som/$2). There is no accommodation on the Chinese side until Kashgar, and you must cross in time to get down to the new border post, a further 104km away, before it closes at 6pm Bêijïng time, three hours later than Kyrgyz time in winter, and two hours later in summer.

This section of the road has interesting Great Game credentials. In 1905 George Macartney on a reconnaissance trip from the British consulate at Kashgar discovered that the Russians had built a cart road 27ft wide from At-Bashi to the top of the Torugart Pass, and about half a mile into Chinese territory. He reported to his superiors that the remainder of the route to Kashgar could easily be made good, and that should the Russians decide to annex all or part of Xïnjiäng this was the way that troops would come. The Chinese could work out the consequences for themselves (although no doubt Macartney said a few words to the local officials), but in 1906 capitulated to Russian pressure to complete the road on the Chinese side. This was done using a loan from a Russian bank (the ‘Russo-China Bank’) with the intention that the value of the loan should be recouped from tolls. The Russians were granted a monopoly of control over the trade, enhancing still further the advantages they had over traders from British India. The Chinese craftily then set the tolls at such a high rate that few used the route, and the road fell into disrepair.

Whereas then Xïnjiäng was then swamped with Russian merchandise, these days, as with the routes from Kazakstan and Pakistan, the boot is on the other foot. The markets of Bishkek are full of Chinese goods, but with the exception of some centrally managed barter trade, relatively little seems to go the other way.

The Burana Tower (ÅÛ‡Ì‡)

50km east of Bishkek and approximately 12km south of the town of Tokmok, the Burana Tower can be reached by taking a bus from Bishkek’s east bus station to Tokmok and then chartering a local taxi. It can be done as a day trip or as a slight diversion on the way to the Torugart Pass.

The tower dates from the first half of the 11th century and is thought to be one of Central Asia’s earliest minarets, standing at the heart of the Silk Route town of Balasagun which thrived from the 10th to the 12th centuries during the existence of a Kharakhanid state stretching from Ili to the Amu Darya river. Restored in the 20s and again in the 70s, it is thought to have been 45m high but lost its top 19m in a 15th century earthquake. From the top, reached by a short but slightly eerie climb up a very narrow, steep, and dark internal staircase, something of the original layout of the city can be seen. A central fortress was surrounded by two rings of walls enclosing around 20 to 30 square kilometres of land. Close to the tower are reconstructions of the layouts of three mausoleums, and a large number of gravestones which take the form of distinctly individual squat statues of the dead, dating from the 6th to the 10th centuries, and brought from various sites around Kyrgyzstan. A two room museum contains a variety of items excavated from the ruins including coins and ceramics clearly indicative of Silk Route trade. The museum entrance fee of 10 som (80¢) includes a guided tour in Russian, and also gains you entrance to the tower.

Lake Son-Kul

4km beyond Sary-Bulak is the right turn onto a jeep track to Son-Kul. Ladas do take this road but it’s really four wheel drive territory as it features steep climbs and drops. Most people are on horse back herding sheep, goats, yak, and more horses, which are brought up to the area of the lake for summer grazing. There is also the occasional supercilious camel. Wildlife includes marmots, rabbits, eagles, and smaller hawks. There is almost no traffic, and almost no permanent habitation, so renting a jeep is the only option. The lake itself is at 3020m, has a vast bird population, is surrounded by beautiful peaks, and there are encampments of yurts in the summer. Here you may be invited in to sample mutton and kumis, the famous mildly alcoholic fermented mare’s milk. At least taste a little of everything you are offered. Times are also hard for these apparently self-sufficent semi-nomads, so expect to be asked for a little something in return: medicine, or fuel for the family Lada.

From the lake an even more beautiful jeep track leads back down to join the main road 44km before Naryn.

temppeternh

Tash Rabat Caravanserai

About 88km and 1.5 hours short of the border, 17km after the end of the surfaced road, and 1.5 hours from Naryn, there is a side turning to the east. Shortly after leaving the road a bridge is down making the route only accessible by car between May and September (four-wheel drive preferred). Further indication of the confusion wrought by the changes in society can be found a gate in the road 6km further on where a charge of 5 som (40¢) per person is levied. The justification for this is, ‘What else am I going to live on?’ and there is no apparent connection with the site itself. There a further 3 som (25¢) per person is payable to the watchman in the white house opposite in order to gain entrance (although a small gift such as a polaroid photograph will also do the job). From Bishkek to Tash Rabat via Son-Kul is approximately 520km altogether, or 420km on the main road.

Tash Rabat is a carefully and unobtrusively restored stone building of unknown date on a 10th century site, set into the hillside in an exquisite valley in the foothills of the Tian Shan. A place of rest and worship, it also served to protect caravans on a route to and from China much earlier than the Torugart way. A central domed space with small traces of the original and probably painted plaster, is surrounded by individual domed cells and a kitchen. This is probably the most intact Silk Route building you will see and no other retains as much of its original atmosphere, with the loudest noises the sound of the river, the calls of birds, and the occasional hoofbeats of passing Kyrgyz. It is possible to negotiate the rental of horses and a guide from the watchman or the yurts for an 8 km ride over the 3968m Tash Rabat Pass to the chilly waters of Chatyr-Kul; as authentic a form of travel as you will find on one of the oldest Silk Routes.

kja

Once again, Peter, thank you so much for so generously sharing this detailed information!

alikarim

@temppeternh
Wonderful reading; does your book have an updated version? The one I found online is from 1997
Thanks

temppeternh

The publisher withdrew from China a few years later. Only the one edition, I'm afraid, although a subsequent and subsequently updated (and still being updated) Beijing guide is on-line free here:

bit.ly/2jldqHZ

alikarim

@temppeternh
Thanks.

thursdaysd

There are some fairly recent guides by Jonathan Tucker. See amazon and abebooks. Lonely Planet used to have a guide just for the Karakorum, but my copy is from the late 90s also.

welltraveledbrit

Many thanks for this Peter, I greatly appreciate your help.

gizmoe