After reading Peter N-H's emphatic comments about bargaining for virtually everything in China, I'm going to give it a try. I can book The Marco Polo at $65 a night (on first blush, a bargain rate for a true 5-star hotel), but I'd like to know if anyone has had any success in bargaining with this or any other 5-star in Beijing for a lower rate? Is it realistic to go into the St. Regis, Grand Hyatt or The Palace and bargain for a $40 or $50 per night rate? I know "it never hurts to ask", but I don't want to be blatantly offensive.

Thanks in advance for any insights.

JasonW

Don't know about the Palace, but I don't think it's realistic to try to bargain for $40-50 at either the St. Regis or Grand Hyatt. Is the $65 rate at the Marco Polo cancellable up until check-in? If so, you could certainly give it a try and if you do, please post your results.

Hotels are slightly in disarray since SARS made much of their tour business go away, and it shows little sign as yet of coming back.

The Marco Polo rack rates match those of many other serious hotels in Beijing, but since it's relatively new, and not a brand familiar outside Asia, it has yet to be 'discovered'. $65 is an excellent rate, and I'd be happy with that. You might beat it at the desk, but equally that rate might disappear if it's limited to a certain amount of the inventory. And remember that the pricing on the Web sites of more sophisticated hotels is dynamically linked to computerised inventory. Rates change only weekly at some hotels, but at others they can change hourly.

As a walk-in the best you could possibly do at lowest season at the other hotels mentioned would be unlikely to be quite as low as $40 or $50, although it could sometimes happen. There's no offense given in asking for a lower rate, though. Every single Chinese who walks in will make "Do you have something a little cheaper?", "Can you make it a little cheaper?", or "How about giving me a discount?" their second question at reception. "Make it forty bucks and you gotta deal!" might not be well received, but it will merely be met with a polite refusal, followed by the absolute lowest price that will be accepted. The point here is merely to be nicer about it all than the average person, regretful that you don't have a lot to spend, and just wondering if they could make it a bit lower.

Expect usually to undercut the lowest price you have found elsewhere for these kinds of hotels (and for most of these the lowest possible price will be the Web rate--but this will vary according to how far in advance you book, time of year, and general variance in demand). It may well be that the price you see on the Web a few weeks before going and the lowest price you can get at the counter on arrival are very different. It may be that the hotel is full and you're out of luck.

In general hotel counter staff have a certain margin within which they can move, and its lowest point will be just under the lowest publicly available price for that day. As the day goes by and it becomes evident that walk-ins will not absorb any unsold inventory, their latitude to lower the price may increase slightly. When there's a general lack of demand (as now), the longer you plan to stay the more likely they are to work to keep you from going elsewhere. An obvious willingness to go elsewhere is in these situations a major bargaining tool.

The biggest difference in prices comes at Chinese hotels with no foreigners handling what the business calls 'yield management'. Their idea of this consists of only offering rack rates publicly (Web, phone), or offering rack with an immediate, "But we can offer you 10% off right now." There is ALWAYS a lower figure than this available, and usually a great deal lower. Rack rates across China are works of fiction, and practically no one ever pays them. When you think you finally have their lowest price you should try giving your polite regrets and slowly walking away. At that point, if the conversation has been generally pleasant you'll discover what the real lowest price is.

But personally, in this situation, with a reputable Sino-foreign joint-venture hotel like the Marco Polo, with a foreign GM, foreign Food and Beverage Manager, HK sales manager, etc., I'd take the $65 while the going's good, and merely consider bargaining for a room upgrade on arrival. The Marco Polo may lack the glamour of the St. Regis, Grand Hyatt, or Palace, all of which I've stayed in, but its design is very pleasant, its scale a little smaller and more human, its location a little quieter but better served by public transport than the other three, but if you don't want to take the metro for one stop (from Xi Dan to Tian'an Men Xi) it's still perhaps at most a 30 minute walk from the Forbidden City.

Hope that helps.

Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

If I understand Peter's post correctly, he's making a comparison of discount to rack rates. Rack rates at the Hyatt or St. Regis probably start around $300, but you'd never get quoted this figure either as a walk-in, by phoning the hotel directly, or thru their U.S. res office or website. If the web rate is $120, you're already getting a substantial discount off of rack and a further discount of 60% isn't likely.

Also in your price comparisons, don't go by star rating alone. Make sure you're comparing a true 5 star with another true 5 star (which I think you are). Generally if you stick with an internationally recognized name with foreign management (including HK), you're OK. But there some aging properties with quasi-government or domestic management that still carry '5 stars', the Peace hotel in Shanghai comes to mind. And don't underestimate the comfort level of a newer 4 star which can have all of the modern conveniences like high speed internet access but with a slightly lower standard of service and less expensive sheets

The posting above does not represent a clear understanding at all.

The comparison being made in the case of Sino-foreign joint-venture hotels is stated to be between the lowest price obtainable in advance (usually, but not always the rate on the Web site), and the rate obtainable by walking up. The difference between these rates may be small, if the Web price on that day is compared with the over-the-counter price for that day, but should still be there. If prices are looked at well in advance, then there may well be a great difference between those prices and what is available over-the-counter on the day.

US$120 isn't much of a discount for a joint-venture hotel in Beijing, and rooms are very frequently available for considerably less, and advertised as such in local media, or even on Web sites. Rates as low as US$75 have been mentioned as seen on the site for The Palace, for instance. While many joint-venture hotels are quoting US$150 up on their sites, very few indeed are getting this much, except from people who book far in advance and from overseas, and think that this is a fair rate in terms of what they expect to pay at home. This isn't home, and you very often need not pay this kind of rate unless you set out to do so.

I haven't seen the most recent figures, but very few hotels in Beijing indeed manage to obtain an average yield per room night of US$100 or more, which means that people are mostly paying far less for top notch accommodation. Typically it's the China World, Kerry Centre, and St. Regis which pull in the highest averages. Most of the others are averaging considerably less. While some of what pulls the rates down is bulk purchasing by tour companies, and some is contract purchasing by large businesses, there continues, for most of the year, to be an oversupply of quality accommodation. This oversupply is growing, and staying well ahead of the increase in the numbers of Chinese nationals able to afford these prices, and the growth (this year a plummet) in the amount of foreign tourist and businessmen.

Every night hundreds, sometimes thousands, of rooms go unsold in Beijing alone. The cost of having someone occupy a room is approximately US$25, and most of that overhead does not go away when the room is empty but the hotel still open for business. Hotels have everything to lose by not filling rooms for any price over US$25, and only worries about undermining permanently the perception of what a reasonable room rate is (US$120, apparently) keep them from going public with lower rates at low periods. But privately, over the counter, can be another matter.

Undoubtedly many will view this as inconvenient, and prefer to pay more and be sure of a room, and of not having to move about looking for hotels. It's a risky strategy at some times of the year if there's a particular hotel you absolutely must stay in. But some years I spend around 200 nights in Chinese hotels. I never book in advance, and I very rarely encounter difficulties. But I do encounter the best rates.

Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

My example above was merely for two very specific properties in Beijing. I have never said that $120 was a good discount at all joint-venture properties and I'm sure it's certainly possible to get a '5 star' room for much, much less barring any peak holiday season or convention/event in town. My point is simply to provide balance so that readers do not expect that this is the case with every hotel in China. There are a few top properties in each city that consistently command a higher price and is capable of maintaining high occupancy. I'm talking in general, this year is of course very unusual due to SARS. I really don't care what the 'average' yield and occupancy rate is as I can easily find those figures for myself. But I would love to hear some actual figures of what you've paid at these two properties because if it is significantly less than my stated figure, I'd like to know for my own future bargaining purposes.

Also when price shopping, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Understand whether the quoted rate is inclusive or exclusive of tax and service charge (which can add another 15% to the quoted rate).

And again Peter, as I have an upcoming convention to attend next month and have yet to book accomodations, I would be very interested to know what you consider a 'good discount' for either the Hyatt or St. Regis.