India is fascinating.

I had always believed that the 'luxury' toilet belonged to the likes of D.Trump and L.Helmsley and served mostly for 'face', except in this case for a**. All that until i read about the toilet in Wikipedia, some of which i paste here for the 'commoners' amongst us. To avoid any notion of promoting a brand, i have omitted the maker's name.

The xxxx Washlet range of toilets and accessories include integrated bidet toilet seats, as well as add-on bidet seats for upgrading a standard toilet. The xxxx Washlet S300 is one such seat. This seat features a heated seat, retractable cleaning wands, warm water massage, warm air drying, and a built in automatic deodorizer. A digital thermostat and an automatic opening and closing toilet seat are additional features.

My basic opinion is simply that toilet use, very much like the food we prefer, is highly influenced by our first experiences. Which is the best food? That which Mother served. Whether it is wholesome and nutritious or not, that is what we want.

jobin, the Toto Washlet has been much discussed on this forum. My husband became so enamored during our visit to Tokyo that I could barely get him out of the hotel room to sightsee...and he bought one as a souvenir! When I wrote the trip report, we discovered that many Fodorites couldn't live without their Totos.

(The report:
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...kyo-wteens.cfm) -

taxis... many taxis do not stop because they have been called to a job elsewhere.. we had more trouble in bkk with cabs not wanting to go someplace than we did in china.

we too are glad we took this china trip now before every place looks like muncie, IN...

toilets: "take me to a western hotel, please"...

very useful to read your thoughts on China. I debate with myself about whether to go or not, so appreciate hearing your views on it.

Thank you all for reading along and for your responses. I almost hesitated to write this report as I wondered if perhaps we were missing something that everyone else gets. We wondered why we were so underwhelmed when we've heard everyone else exclaiming how wonderful their china trip was. And, I didn't want to sound like a spoiled brat who didnt appreciate such a trip that many can only hope to take. I hope that my report helps others in making their decision. I will provide more info on our trip shortly.

Personally I really appreciate hearing all perspectives on a destination. One of my complaints with Fodors is often when there is criticism others pile on that the poster missed something or didn't fully appreciate it or whatever. It's actually more helpful in many ways to hear realistic even if negative views of a destination to factor in with all the rave reviews that typically are posted on Fodors.
Anyway, looking forward to reading more about your trip.

I have to say I'm with colduphere on this one. We thoroughly enjoyed our independent visit to China. We were fascinated by everything and frankly happy that things are modern enough to facilitate access. No disneyland for me. I would definitely go back to see some things I missed.

We returned to China last year, ten years after our first trip there. Beijing was so much more modernized. Instead of bikes, it was cars. No one stared at us westerners as they had on our earlier trip. I'm so glad I had the earlier experience and went before our trip to SE Asia. Shanghai and Beijing were very different back then, Shanghai was much, much more modern than Beijing. The Hutongs had not been restored. Now they are both modern international cities.The one consistency, dumplings were just as good!
However, our itinerary also included the far,far west, Xingjiang provence, Muslim, which was a trip back in time, incredibly interesting and different from the rest of China. Highly recommended.

Hotels:

Beijing: Novotel Beijing Peace – 3 Jinyu Hutong Wangfujing; included breakfast – decent variety of Asian and Western choices – best breakfast in China – we compared to Penninsula hotel’s breakfast which was across the street and found little difference. This hotel advertises that they provide different levels of comfort in their beds and pillows, but when we complained that the mattress was too soft, the solution was to put a thin blanket under the sheet for extra padding. The “softer” pillow was the same that came on the bed and although it wasn’t bad, it wasn’t as fluffy as I’d hoped for. On the second night, after my husband complained that he had to sleep on the chair, we were provided with an air mattress which was placed on top of the bed to soften it. The hotel was in a perfect location and we were generally satisfied. The staff was helpful. There was free wireless internet in the rooms and throughout the hotel.

Datong: Datong Garden Hotel - $70.03/nite including breakfast – hotel was helpful in finding private driver for touring the next day (7 ½ hrs) - 310 yuan for private car, hotel staff was helpful in business center. Ate dinner at hotel buffet both nights – good food; hotel was lovely with comfortable beds and nice amenities. Free internet included.

Pingyaho – Kylin hotel - $110/nite, beautiful hotel, but poor service. Minimal English spoken, breakfast buffet included but not great, elevator broken upon arrival, but we were told it was fixed later on. When we used it we got stuck in elevator. Location was good. At the entrance of the old town.

Xi’an – Mercure on Remnin Square - $96/night – breakfast not included, free internet – hotel was conveniently located within 15-20 minute walk to Muslim food area, decent hotel. Xi’an is a bit spread out and warriors are not in central area, so it’s hard to say where best location is. We were satisfied with hotel, although cost for breakfast buffet did not seem worthwhile.

Nanjing - Jinglin Hotel – $130/night - Beautiful hotel, free upgrade to executive room, great breakfast, excellent staff with good English skills, , free wi-fi

Hangzhou – Ramada Plaza - $77/night –– hotel was conveniently located walking distance to West Lake. Staff spoke little English and were not very helpful, breakfast not included with room, purchased tickets for West Lake impression show through hotel’s business center – had to pick up tickets at box office.

Shanghai: Grand Mercure Zhongya - 6 nights 592.27 yuan/night (breakfast included) $94.83USD, free wi-fi in hotel lobby only, fee for internet in room. Hotel located away from bund, but convenient to metro and central rail road station – just outside the hotel’s door. Very comfortable rooms. Breakfast buffet was ok, not great, best bathroom’s in lobby of hotel with automatic toilet controls as described above. Excellent staff with good English skills.


We left Ft Lauderdale on October 8th, flying to Atlanta to catch our Korean Air flight to Seoul and then onward to Beijing. Due to lightening our flight was delayed from Ft. Lauderdale and we literally had to run to catch the connection in Atlanta. Note: I called Korean Airlines from the cell phone once we were taxiing on the runway in Atlanta, to inform them that we were on our way and to request that they hold the plane. We made it to the plane with several moments to spare. As we left early in the morning and our flight was for the most part during the day, we got little sleep and spent the time reading and watching three movies.
October 9: We arrived in Beijing at approximately 9 pm, dropped off our bags in the room and headed out for a short walk on Wangfujing St, which was only a few minutes walk from the hotel. By this time the famous pedestrian street was quiet and the stalls and stores were beginning to close up. We returned to our rooms for a good night sleep.
October 10: Suffering from a bit of jet lag, we awakened at 5:30 AM, had an early morning breakfast and got an early start on the day. Breakfast was decent with a wide variety of Asian and Western choices. We set out for the Temple of Heaven via Beijing’s wonderful metro system which was within walking distance from our hotel. The Temple of Heaven is a complex of religious buildings situated in the southeastern part of central Beijing. The complex was visited by the Emperors of the Ming and Qing dynasties for annual ceremonies of prayer to Heaven for good harvest. We arrived at the Temple of Heaven at 7 AM and spent approximately 4 ½ hrs there. Besides being a UNESCO World Heritage Site, the Temple of Heaven is situated in 2.73 Km of parkland and we had a delightful morning watching the Chinese, young and old, doing tai chi, dancing, singing, exercising, playing cards, maj jongg, knitting, and picnicking in the park. The weather was wonderful and the skies were clear. The air quality on this day was to be one of the clearest that we had while in China. I cannot begin to describe how remarkable it is to watch the Chinese people exercising and playing in the park. The vitality and strength of the Chinese are like nothing we have ever seen before. There were elderly woman and men doing pull ups, contortions, flips, etc. And they all seemed to be having a wonderful time in the park. We thoroughly enjoyed our time here and it was probably one of the highlights of our trip.
After leaving the Temple of Heaven complex, we walked to the Qian men shopping area which was on the way to the Tiananmen Square. This was a relatively high end shopping area with name brands one would see in the USA. We also walked along some back streets through a smaller market area, but as we were not interested in actually shopping at this time, we continued on. Upon arriving at Tiananmen square, we took some pictures, walked around a bit, but decided there was not enough time to proceed on to The Forbidden City, so instead we walked from the gate to the southern end of Wang fu Jinh Street, a high end shopping district with upscale stores. We stopped along the way to purchase a hair brush as I had forgotten mine at home. We continued on through the pedestrian street which led to our hotel and decided to rest and freshen up before going to dinner at the famous Dadong duck restaurant situated only 5 minutes away from our hotel on the 5th floor of Jinhua Place.
Dadong duck restaurant – the restaurant décor is beautiful and the ambiance is very nice. We did not have a reservation and were told that the wait would be about ½ hr. While waiting we perused the very confusing menu, despite having pictures. It was difficult to determine how much food we needed to order and what the price was for the duck. We ended up ordering duck for two, two waters and two sodas, a braised eggplant dish which was heavenly, and condiments for the duck. Dinner was $70.00 and while a bit pricey for what we got, I would recommend going here. The food was beautifully presented.

My wife and I are planning our first trip to China with Gate1Travel in May, 2013 and I appreciate your honest postings very much. We have traveled to Asia twice in the past two years, first to Bali and Singapore, and last year to Thailand, Cambodia, VietNam and Hong Kong. Yes, we especially loved our last three days of each trip (Singapore and Hong Kong) because they were our Western splurges before coming home, but each trip was very special because we had "natives" to visit in Bangkok and Bali whom we had previously met in the US. This is what makes our trips more meaningful because we have felt that we were given an insider's view of their country which you don't see on a package tour.
We love to visit supermarkets wherever we go. Certain aisles fascinate me including the jellies and jams, infant formulas (I'm a pediatrician) and weird as it may seem, condom displays.
I also love photographing children and I carry small framed pictures from my travels to give away as icebreakers and as thanks for letting me take their pictures.

I haven't shown my wife dgunbug's posting yet and I hope that she won't want to cancel the trip. She may feel that it will be a letdown, but we want to go to China at least once. It is rare that we have gone to places that we would absolutely want to return to. Even beautiful Bali with all its noise and endless motorbikes was nice, but with even with the best snorkeling I have ever done, it's not on my urgent "return to" list.

We are spending 4 days in Beijing, 1 in Chengdu, 3 in Lijiang (I was glad to hear about another person's praise for that area), 2 in Hangzhou,2 in Huangshan, 3 in Shanghai and 5 days at the end where we will spend some time in Suzhou or Ningbo. (I could use some suggestions about how to divide up that time at the end before leaving PVG.)

We appreciate the candor which is often missing from many people's travel reports.
Dgunbug, could you email me at [email protected]? I would love to pick your brain before we go to China and possibly meet for Chinese food in Ft. Lauderdale. We live in Lake Worth and would drive down to meet you.

DPK

Dpkmd - we'd be delighted to get together. Please check your account for my email response.

Just to clarify things, we have no regrets for having traveled to china and in spite of our disappointments, we had a wonderful trip. The main point is that the china of the past is difficult to be found and perhaps because we are becoming more accustomed to travel in Asia, as well as the fact that china has become so westernized, it was a bit underwhelming to us.

Sorry for the delay in writing this report. I'm glad to see that many of you are reading along and appreciate your responses.

We visited China for the month of September 2007. We had not been to any other SE Asia places. We loved all that we saw and did in China. The agency we used specializes in China trips. There were 7 total in our group-the perfect size. We chose to do a tour-as in China, everything is possible, but nothing is really easy.

Fast forward to 2010. Our daughter has signed a 2 yr. contract to teach high school in Sekou/Shenzhen province-about 20 minutes from Hong Kong. One of her must not miss places to visit in China is Yangshou on the Li River. She absolutely loved it. DPK you may want to consider this for your upcoming trip. It is an area that was included on our trip and the scenery is magnificent.

dgunbug: Have enjoyed reading your posts. Much of what you experienced was similar to what we experienced in 2007. Crossing the street was a challenge back then. I remember the squat toilets! Fortunately our tour agency had informed us before we arrived in China of the necessity of taking our own tp with us on our day excursions! We were lucky in that we also explored some small villages populated with minorities and even had some meals at locals' homes. We visited the hutong area in Beijing and also spent time at a local kindergarten. We had tea at a local teahouse in Chongqing. We explored the rice terraces of Long Sheng. In one place we were the only Westerners and a group soon formed staring at us. It was fun trying to communicate!! I must admit on our own time we ventured into a local Mickey Ds. We were given a laminated menu with pictures. We pointed to what we wanted and the food was just like eating at a Mickey Ds back home! This was at the end of our trip and for almost a month we had been eating strictly Chinese food.

The old China is still there-shrinking to be sure-but go off the beaten path and you will find it.

Looking forward to reading about the rest of your trip.

October 11 Day 3:

Still not on Asian time, we were up early again– this time at 6 am, so I decided to take a quick shower. I was thrilled to have a new hair brush and anxious to wash and dry my hair. Word of advice – DON’T FORGET YOUR HAIRBRUSH. Somehow the hairbrush was not designed to curl my hair under and when I attempted to blow dry it close to my scalp, the brush ended up stuck to my head. It would not uncurl and my husband and I thought we were going to have to cut my hair on one side up to the scalp in order to free the hair from the brush. It took close to ½ hr for my husband to unwind my hair one strand at a time from the brush. Needless to say…I did not go out and purchase another brush to blow dry my hair while on this trip. This was not a pretty site.

By 8:30 we had breakfast and were out the door where we picked up a taxi for a short ride to the east entrance of the Forbidden City. The ride was so short that the taxi driver refused to charge us his fare and instead gave us his business card in an attempt to gain our future business for a day out to the Great Wall. While we considered using him, we preferred to use a driver that our hotel recommended. At the east entrance, taxis are forbidden to drive up to the actual Forbidden City gate, but there is a trolley car for those who prefer not to walk. As the weather was beautiful and it was only a short distance, we walked beside the outer wall and moat along a very pleasant street lined with wispy willow trees.

At the entranceway, I picked up an audio tour guide, which was very intelligible and informative. However, I do not recommend using the audio device as there was no way to pause it. As I was interested in taking pictures and taking my time, I ultimately gave up on this guide and relied more on our notes and book.

The Forbidden City was packed with Chinese tourists and there was quite a bit of pushing when it came time to view inside buildings that did not allow access. We noted that the Chinese people do not understand the concept of lining up orderly to take turns and we saw this time and again on our trip.

The Forbidden City is filled with many courtyards and is enormous. It was interesting to see it after having read about it and having seen the movie “The Last Emperor”, however, the pavilions are all made of a similar architecture and they seemed to look the same to me. My favorite part of the Forbidden City was the beautiful gardens towards the north end. We somehow missed the dragon screen, but did not feel like retracing our footsteps as we would be seeing other dragon screens during our trip. The rock gardens were very picturesque and we enjoyed our time there.

We left the FC through the North gate and visited Jingshan park which is immediately across the street, taking the underground passageway to avoid the heavy traffic. We climbed to the top of coal hill, which was made from a landfill when the moat around the Forbidden City was dug out. From the hilltop, one gets a great view of the FC and of Beijing, putting the city into great perspective. Unfortunately, the day was extremely hazy and the smog was more than evident.

We left the park and proceeded to the right, heading for the Beihai Park, an easy walk, or one bus stop away. On the way we noticed a sign for Dashizou Hutong and decided to wander off the main road to explore the homes and shops in the hutong area. The hutongs that we visited while in China all seem to be in the process of being rebuilt. Nevertheless, it gave us an opportunity to see how the Chinese people live, or in most instances, how they lived before their hutongs were torn down to build more modern buildings. We noticed many public toilets and realized that these were not built for tourists or those passing by, but rather for the people living in the hutongs without bathroom facilities.

We continued on to the Beihai Park, taking a bridge over a lake and then wandering around the lake, viewing the various pavilions, the tranquil scenery, boats, rock gardens and the wispy willow trees that we were to see throughout China. There is a Tibetan Temple on the top of a hill, but we chose to skip that and just strolled leisurely around the lake, enjoying the tranquility and nice weather.

By now it was 3:30 and while we had planned to visit the Mansion of prince Gong which was close by, we decided to head back to the room to relax before dinner as the mansion closed at 4 pm. By this time we were exhausted and decided to get a taxi cab back to the hotel, however all cabs were either full or the drivers for some reason decided they did not want to stop for us or anyone else. This was to be a common and perplexing experience that we encountered throughout our time in China. There were times that we physically got into a taxi, only to be refused service by the driver. We never understood what was going on. It took us over 30 minutes to hail a taxi that would finally take us to our hotel, despite being passed by many empty vehicles.

For dinner we went to a hot pot restaurant in Jin Bo Place. The service and food were good although the waitress hovered just a bit too much, trying to help us cook the food.

> My favorite part of the Forbidden City was the beautiful gardens towards the north end.

You are bringing fond memories to mind - thanks, dgunbug!

Kja - looking back at my notes and pictures, I also have fond memories. Glad you are reading along. Your own trip report was so helpful to us.

To expect all countries in Asia to be similar is a bit of a mistake. Asia is huge and very diversified. Even within China you will find a lot of diversity with 30+ nationalities.
I would not expect toilet paper in public toilets anytime soon. Think of the cost of doing so with so many people. In any case, people there are used to carry their paper. On the other hand in most toilets in public areas of hotels of shopping malls, you will find toilet paper. It is also where you are more likely to find "sit down" toilets which many of my Chinese friend do find less hygienic. They usually do not sit on the toilet, they "sit" over them.
You are right about the public bathroom in hutongs. Generally there are not toilets in the residences.
About fruits in hotels I guess that it depends where you were, I find that I get these most of the time but I will admit that it depends on the category of hotel.
Getting a taxi has been an increasing problem in Beijing. Trying to get one at the north exit of the Forbidden city is certainly not a good idea. Why taxis are becoming more difficult to get is a bit of a mystery even for us residents. Sometimes they are off their shift taking the car back, sometimes they want to take a break for a meal or toilet break. But I also suspect that when they see a white face they worry that they won't understand where we ant to go. On the other hand, getting a taxi is also a challenge for my Chinese friends so there must be other reasons.
About Dadong, it has the reputation as the best Beijing duck in the city but there are several other contenders. I find the service there pretty bad and prices high.

JPDeM - while there are certain commonalities among the Asian nations, I did not think china would be the same, nor did I wish it to be the same as other countries we visited. Also, much of what we saw as far as china's progress, did not surprise us. Thank you for pointing out that there are in fact western toilets in many of the modern malls and restaurants. We also took note of the fact that the Chinese often preferred their squat toilets, given the choice. As for the taxis, we didnt think they were avoiding us gringos as they passed by many Chinese people as well. I believe we were all equally perplexed.

This is a fabulous report-thank you for taking the time to write so many details. My husband and I skyped with friends last night who are living in shanghai for a year, thus prompting us to plan a trip to a place that was not on the top of our list. I'll be looking forward to reading the rest and then posting my own itinerary and questions for this board. I love the depth of information to be found here!

Atltravelr - thanks so much for your kind words. I wasn't sure if anyone was still reading so its encouraging to see that this is appreciated. I will try to write more soon.