China Highlights Tours - Reliable?
Oct 1st, 2008 | 02:07 PM
#22
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Peter N-H,
I am going to hate myself for this, but.....
Do you have the reference for exactly how many people travel annually to China independently vs on tours?
I can make a guess (tours would outnumber individual travelers by 50 fold, maybe more), but that would just be a guess. Please provide the source of your information where "tens of thousands" travel independently to China (and how that compares to group travel in terms of numbers) and I will be educated by it and apologize to you. Obviously, it has to be a reputable and verifiable source, as you pride yourself in providing "factual information"
I am going to hate myself for this, but.....
Do you have the reference for exactly how many people travel annually to China independently vs on tours?
I can make a guess (tours would outnumber individual travelers by 50 fold, maybe more), but that would just be a guess. Please provide the source of your information where "tens of thousands" travel independently to China (and how that compares to group travel in terms of numbers) and I will be educated by it and apologize to you. Obviously, it has to be a reputable and verifiable source, as you pride yourself in providing "factual information"
Oct 1st, 2008 | 03:53 PM
#24
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 0
What on earth is the point of this query? I have no idea what the hard numbers are of actual independent travellers and can only report running into vast numbers whenever I'm there: in myriad hostels, at sights, on one-day bus tours, on bikes poring over maps at intersections, in the club lounges of major hotels, filling the bars in Sanlitun, packing out towns like Dali, Lijiang, Yangshuo, haggling at markets, etc. Perhaps it's necessary to get out of the organised tourism bubble to see them, but I doubt it. They're everywhere at the same sort of greatest hit sites that form the total content of most tours, but they're running round a far larger list of lesser-known destinations, too. How many do there need to be to count?
But supposing I (and everyone else) didn't run into them everywhere (and heaven knows even the most casual search of the Internet will find them chatting about their experiences and plans all over the place) what would that have to do with whether the idea that it's *necessary* to take a tour in China is wrong or not? Couldn't it be wrong even if no one currently travelled independently?
The fact that so many people do travel independently is merely a short-cut argument to show it's possible. The aim of describing them as a 'very small minority' is clearly to suggest that the number is small enough not to count (however that would be calculated), and is no less rhetorical than describing it as 'tens of thousands' although that's both personal observation as well as a shorthand for saying it's enough to prove that independent travel is perfectly possible and entirely commonplace (although in truth its the mind-set of the traveller not inherent difficulties for the traveller that actually matter).
If the short-cut argument is to be abandoned (although not being able to say the number is exactly 102,597, or 21.2% or whatever it may be is neither here nor there) then lets look at the detail of the arguments originally presented:
> I consider myself very well traveled, having visited over 111 different countries all over the world (good part of that was independent travel). Despite that I would not undertake an independent travel in China.
But that isn't an argument against it that has much influence on all the others who do do it, clutching their Lonely Planets or whatever in their hands. You may have chosen not to do it that way, and that's entirely up to you. Many others also make the same choice, and there's nothing wrong with that, either. But that doesn't make it a necessary choice nor is it relevant to those who may be wondering which way to tackle it themselves.
> Traveling independently in Italy or Spain and doing it in China is not the same thing.
Nor is it the same as travelling in many other countries. This doesn't help much.
> For one, most of us cannot read Chinese characters and once you leave the center of Shanghai or Beijing that is what you are likely to see – Chinese characters (and I don’t mean people).
There are many countries where I can't read the script (although China is not one of them). I've just returned from driving round Bulgaria where almost everything was in Cyrillic (just code to me). If I only travelled independently in countries where I could read the script there are a lot of countries I wouldn't have been able to visit. In fact China is littered with English signs (although of course one could always hope for more)--driving there (except for the other manic behaviour on the roads) would be easier than it was in Bulgaria. Airports, major sights, hotels, and most road signs have plenty of Latin script and English signage.
But even if there was almost no English at all (as when I first began travelling in China more than 20 years ago, sharing rooms, restaurants, and train compartments with many other independent travellers) that's no deterrent to travel at all. As many here have recounted, all you do is get your destination written down in characters and hop in a taxi.
If you happen to consider this just too much of a fuss, fair enough. You make your own choices. But others need to know that getting about in this way is both perfectly possible and entirely commonplace.
Look at the fun Lyn Clarke is having on this current thread:
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35159504
She doesn't have a word of Mandarin, and is using precisely the techniques described. She's clearly managing very well, and there are others on this forum who are in no way travel diehards who are also about to set out independently, as their frequent posts here have made clear. You may not want to travel this way. But why deny it to anyone else?
> Also, you should assume that NO ONE speaks English, because it is close to the truth. The only people that speak English are essentially in the hotels (some) and your guides. You cannot count on running into a college professor or a student on the street when you are lost. Try speaking English to a taxi driver (even in Shanghai & Beijing ) and see where it gets you.
All true. But what does that have to do with it? It's certainly no deterrent to travel. I only speak three languages, so I've visited many countries where I didn't speak a word of the local language, and there was precious little English on the street. So what? I expect most people on this site find this a commonplace experience when they travel independently. With a map and a sense of direction and where you want to go written down why should this be a problem? It's only a problem if that's simply not your idea of how to travel. But it is many other people's idea. Again, see the link above.
> But you probably know all this. Even if you don’t speak Spanish or Italian, you can read the street signs;
Most street signs in China have script you can read on them. But if not you can always compare the characters on them with those in your book.
> or you can show your Lonely Planet guide book to a local who can read the name of the place you are looking for and thus point you in the right direction. Try that in Xi’An (or worse – in the countryside).
Indeed, showing the characters for your destination is the route to success, and generally better than trying to pronounce them. Illiteracy rates are high, but not high enough to be an impediment. The problem is more that people in the countryside are too busy staying alive to have broad horizons, and if they don't need to know where a particular facility is, such as a hotel they'd never be likely to use, then they may not know which way to sent you. But generally they shout to someone else, and people passing get curious and join in, and there's a lively debate until someone points you in the right direction. Either you're the kind of person who thinks that's part of the fun, or you're not. Neither view is right or wrong, and each must travel in the manner that he or she pleases. The fact that one person may be reluctant to travel in this way shouldn't prevent others from doing so. It's perfectly possible. It's done all the time.
There have been suggestions that I am against group tours and that I am wrong to be against them. I say (yet again), that I am merely in favour of travellers making informed decisions, and that those who enjoy independent travel should not automatically consider China a place where they can't travel in the way they usually do.
Accommodation is plentiful, public transport will take you anywhere you want to go, for most of the year tickets to most destinations are no longer difficult to obtain, and independent travel costs are much lower. There's rarely any need to book in advance (in fact that's usually a bad idea) and so travel itineraries can be more flexible than those of even the most flexible of tour companies, and changed on the fly while already in China.
The most pleasant travel experiences in China are generally found in places away from mass tourism which the independent traveller has the opportunity to visit (although as with Dali, Yangshuo, etc. inevitably organised tourism eventually catches up. These were independent traveller spots for more than a decade before organised tourism discovered them). In between fully organised travel and fully independent travel there are myriad middle ways using one-day tours, ticket agents, hiring taxis for the day, and so on. And even using most of these still keeps you away from the scams and overcharging common to organised tourism.
In short anyone who chooses to do this can do it, at many different levels of luxury and convenience, if that's what they decide they want to do. If not, then there are many different types of tour.
But this is a lot of words on an entirely unimportant subject. Large numbers of non-specialists travel independently in China for business and pleasure, and large numbers in organised groups of various different types. In possession of the facts for and against both types of travel, visitors to China can make their own informed choices.
Peter N-H
But supposing I (and everyone else) didn't run into them everywhere (and heaven knows even the most casual search of the Internet will find them chatting about their experiences and plans all over the place) what would that have to do with whether the idea that it's *necessary* to take a tour in China is wrong or not? Couldn't it be wrong even if no one currently travelled independently?
The fact that so many people do travel independently is merely a short-cut argument to show it's possible. The aim of describing them as a 'very small minority' is clearly to suggest that the number is small enough not to count (however that would be calculated), and is no less rhetorical than describing it as 'tens of thousands' although that's both personal observation as well as a shorthand for saying it's enough to prove that independent travel is perfectly possible and entirely commonplace (although in truth its the mind-set of the traveller not inherent difficulties for the traveller that actually matter).
If the short-cut argument is to be abandoned (although not being able to say the number is exactly 102,597, or 21.2% or whatever it may be is neither here nor there) then lets look at the detail of the arguments originally presented:
> I consider myself very well traveled, having visited over 111 different countries all over the world (good part of that was independent travel). Despite that I would not undertake an independent travel in China.
But that isn't an argument against it that has much influence on all the others who do do it, clutching their Lonely Planets or whatever in their hands. You may have chosen not to do it that way, and that's entirely up to you. Many others also make the same choice, and there's nothing wrong with that, either. But that doesn't make it a necessary choice nor is it relevant to those who may be wondering which way to tackle it themselves.
> Traveling independently in Italy or Spain and doing it in China is not the same thing.
Nor is it the same as travelling in many other countries. This doesn't help much.
> For one, most of us cannot read Chinese characters and once you leave the center of Shanghai or Beijing that is what you are likely to see – Chinese characters (and I don’t mean people).
There are many countries where I can't read the script (although China is not one of them). I've just returned from driving round Bulgaria where almost everything was in Cyrillic (just code to me). If I only travelled independently in countries where I could read the script there are a lot of countries I wouldn't have been able to visit. In fact China is littered with English signs (although of course one could always hope for more)--driving there (except for the other manic behaviour on the roads) would be easier than it was in Bulgaria. Airports, major sights, hotels, and most road signs have plenty of Latin script and English signage.
But even if there was almost no English at all (as when I first began travelling in China more than 20 years ago, sharing rooms, restaurants, and train compartments with many other independent travellers) that's no deterrent to travel at all. As many here have recounted, all you do is get your destination written down in characters and hop in a taxi.
If you happen to consider this just too much of a fuss, fair enough. You make your own choices. But others need to know that getting about in this way is both perfectly possible and entirely commonplace.
Look at the fun Lyn Clarke is having on this current thread:
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35159504
She doesn't have a word of Mandarin, and is using precisely the techniques described. She's clearly managing very well, and there are others on this forum who are in no way travel diehards who are also about to set out independently, as their frequent posts here have made clear. You may not want to travel this way. But why deny it to anyone else?
> Also, you should assume that NO ONE speaks English, because it is close to the truth. The only people that speak English are essentially in the hotels (some) and your guides. You cannot count on running into a college professor or a student on the street when you are lost. Try speaking English to a taxi driver (even in Shanghai & Beijing ) and see where it gets you.
All true. But what does that have to do with it? It's certainly no deterrent to travel. I only speak three languages, so I've visited many countries where I didn't speak a word of the local language, and there was precious little English on the street. So what? I expect most people on this site find this a commonplace experience when they travel independently. With a map and a sense of direction and where you want to go written down why should this be a problem? It's only a problem if that's simply not your idea of how to travel. But it is many other people's idea. Again, see the link above.
> But you probably know all this. Even if you don’t speak Spanish or Italian, you can read the street signs;
Most street signs in China have script you can read on them. But if not you can always compare the characters on them with those in your book.
> or you can show your Lonely Planet guide book to a local who can read the name of the place you are looking for and thus point you in the right direction. Try that in Xi’An (or worse – in the countryside).
Indeed, showing the characters for your destination is the route to success, and generally better than trying to pronounce them. Illiteracy rates are high, but not high enough to be an impediment. The problem is more that people in the countryside are too busy staying alive to have broad horizons, and if they don't need to know where a particular facility is, such as a hotel they'd never be likely to use, then they may not know which way to sent you. But generally they shout to someone else, and people passing get curious and join in, and there's a lively debate until someone points you in the right direction. Either you're the kind of person who thinks that's part of the fun, or you're not. Neither view is right or wrong, and each must travel in the manner that he or she pleases. The fact that one person may be reluctant to travel in this way shouldn't prevent others from doing so. It's perfectly possible. It's done all the time.
There have been suggestions that I am against group tours and that I am wrong to be against them. I say (yet again), that I am merely in favour of travellers making informed decisions, and that those who enjoy independent travel should not automatically consider China a place where they can't travel in the way they usually do.
Accommodation is plentiful, public transport will take you anywhere you want to go, for most of the year tickets to most destinations are no longer difficult to obtain, and independent travel costs are much lower. There's rarely any need to book in advance (in fact that's usually a bad idea) and so travel itineraries can be more flexible than those of even the most flexible of tour companies, and changed on the fly while already in China.
The most pleasant travel experiences in China are generally found in places away from mass tourism which the independent traveller has the opportunity to visit (although as with Dali, Yangshuo, etc. inevitably organised tourism eventually catches up. These were independent traveller spots for more than a decade before organised tourism discovered them). In between fully organised travel and fully independent travel there are myriad middle ways using one-day tours, ticket agents, hiring taxis for the day, and so on. And even using most of these still keeps you away from the scams and overcharging common to organised tourism.
In short anyone who chooses to do this can do it, at many different levels of luxury and convenience, if that's what they decide they want to do. If not, then there are many different types of tour.
But this is a lot of words on an entirely unimportant subject. Large numbers of non-specialists travel independently in China for business and pleasure, and large numbers in organised groups of various different types. In possession of the facts for and against both types of travel, visitors to China can make their own informed choices.
Peter N-H
Oct 1st, 2008 | 05:14 PM
#25
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,835
Likes: 0
Just a note to say that if I could manage China on my own (very happily) then pretty much anyone could...
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34656568
Compared to, say, India, China is duck soup.
(mmmm, duck...)
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34656568
Compared to, say, India, China is duck soup.
(mmmm, duck...)
Oct 1st, 2008 | 05:27 PM
#26
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 27,709
Likes: 1
"all you do is get your destination written down in characters and hop in a taxi." - or show it to the person selling bus tickets, or match it to the sign in the bus window, or to the departure board in the train station... Or even copy the characters out of (e.g.) Lonely Planet yourself.
I've visited China both ways - a high-end tour, a budget tour (with shopping stops only in Khotan), and on my own. On my own was without question the most fun. I wouldn't criticize anyone taking a tour, especially for a first trip (that's what I did, after all), but Peter is right that doing it yourself is perfectly possible.
At the end of my first tour, tired of feeling I was in a cocoon, I mentioned to my assigned roommate that I figured I could handle China on my own, and although she had gone off on some "independent" excursions with me, she said she couldn't imagine doing that, so everyone's comfort level is different.
And even in the west, where there's less English, and the dialect is different (even the word for beer seemed to be pronounced differently, although "rice" sounded the same), I found people eager to help.
I've visited China both ways - a high-end tour, a budget tour (with shopping stops only in Khotan), and on my own. On my own was without question the most fun. I wouldn't criticize anyone taking a tour, especially for a first trip (that's what I did, after all), but Peter is right that doing it yourself is perfectly possible.
At the end of my first tour, tired of feeling I was in a cocoon, I mentioned to my assigned roommate that I figured I could handle China on my own, and although she had gone off on some "independent" excursions with me, she said she couldn't imagine doing that, so everyone's comfort level is different.
And even in the west, where there's less English, and the dialect is different (even the word for beer seemed to be pronounced differently, although "rice" sounded the same), I found people eager to help.
Oct 2nd, 2008 | 12:13 AM
#27
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
The real value of guiding comes when you wish to visit those places that lie off the beaten track - especially when the guiding comes with its own transport. The type of guides involved in this kind of tour are those with very specialised local knowledge - who can correspond with clients, over a longer period of time, to advise on likely destinations and tailor make routes to suite specific needs. These needs may have something to do with hobbies like - photography, hiking, natural history, visiting ethnic minorities - all those interests that are difficult to fully cater for within the normal mainstream China tours - where the normal guide has little understanding of the special needs that often go with these activities. And since these specialist holidays may involve complicated travel routes while journeying around remoter areas there is also that time factor of trying to get in as much as possible in the shortest period of time. So in these circumstances it’s only logical to get the help of an expert guide - just so you can get do more in your limited holidaying time.
It's also important to realise a good guide understands that there is more to a workable 2-ways communication than mere language. Here is where the difference lies with some of the big tour companies and their guiding services - since guiding often works best when its practiced at a personal level, rather than just shunting a few more customers through those well-trodden tourist spots.
Remember there still remains vast areas of - "off the beaten track" in China - and this type of destination can make for a fantastic change from the usual hyper-congested, mega-noisy Chinese tourist ghetto - but it'll usually takes an understanding and experienced helper to get you there!!
It's also important to realise a good guide understands that there is more to a workable 2-ways communication than mere language. Here is where the difference lies with some of the big tour companies and their guiding services - since guiding often works best when its practiced at a personal level, rather than just shunting a few more customers through those well-trodden tourist spots.
Remember there still remains vast areas of - "off the beaten track" in China - and this type of destination can make for a fantastic change from the usual hyper-congested, mega-noisy Chinese tourist ghetto - but it'll usually takes an understanding and experienced helper to get you there!!
Oct 2nd, 2008 | 07:52 AM
#28
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
laowai,
well said. This again applies to a very specialized group of travelers who either have special interests or have been to China and seen the Great Wall a dozen times or so; or they simply prefer to travel off the beaten path.
Don't forget that there is a very large number of people (majority)
who have never been to China before (or maybe not even to too many other places) and are not intrepid travelers and they do want to see the Great Wall and the Forbidden City (and likely will not have a chance to go back again).
Peter N_H (& amy & thursdaysd & others),
I have never maintained that individual travel to China is not possible or that no one does it. If you can find such a statement by me, please point it out.
I simply stated a few facts, which I believe to be true (they are not necessarily absolute truths, however).
1 Independent travel to China IS very difficult and definitely not for the average tourist. Obviously it can and has been done by many, but MOST people don’t have the time, the skills and the desire to undertake such an exercise. You and many others obviously do. I only asked about the numbers, because you don’t seem to feel that independent travelers are the exception (or minority) and I do. Even if “tens of thousands” of people traveled independently to China (a number I doubt), even then they would represent a “small minority” of the “tens of millions” of tourists visiting China. That is all I said.
And yes, travel to China IS more difficult than to other countries where we do not speak the language either. Among the reasons making it so are not just the language itself (spoken & written) but the shear size of the country, very poor infrastructure among many others. Most of us cannot speak or read Japanese either, but few would disagree that China is more daunting than Japan (there many more people speak English, they have generally excellent signage, great trains & public transport; all simply because they are much more developed as a country and have been at it (tourism) a lot longer. Again, I do realize that people travel independently to Russia, Bulgaria, Laos, Cambodia, India and other countries, but again, they are the more adventurous and experienced travelers (the exception), not the majority.
I think only a fool would say that it is just as easy to travel independently in China as it is in Europe (Italy, Spain, etc) – I don’t think I have to elaborate on that point. It is possible to travel to either place independently but it is NOT the same. I am saying this particularly for the benefit of those that normally do travel independently and perhaps they feel if they have done so in Europe they can do it in China too. Yes they can, but it is NOT the same. Just like running a marathon – many people can do it, but not most.
2 Just like you are telling people on this board that individual travel to China is possible, the same way I am trying to point out that group travel is also a good option for many. They will not automatically be cheated, lied to and abused in unimaginable ways. They do need to be informed and make wise choices regarding their itineraries, hotels, shopping options, etc.
One of the purposes of a board like this to ask others for their experiences and then benefit from their advice.
We do agree that it is possible to travel to China both independently and in groups and it is each person’s individual choice of what they are comfortable with. Which ever way they travel, the more they put into the research for their trip, the more they will get out of it.
This time I am definitely signing out on this subject for good – I have said all I wish to say about it; anything after this would only be argumentative and I do not wish to do that.
Once again – happy travels to all.
well said. This again applies to a very specialized group of travelers who either have special interests or have been to China and seen the Great Wall a dozen times or so; or they simply prefer to travel off the beaten path.
Don't forget that there is a very large number of people (majority)
who have never been to China before (or maybe not even to too many other places) and are not intrepid travelers and they do want to see the Great Wall and the Forbidden City (and likely will not have a chance to go back again).
Peter N_H (& amy & thursdaysd & others),
I have never maintained that individual travel to China is not possible or that no one does it. If you can find such a statement by me, please point it out.
I simply stated a few facts, which I believe to be true (they are not necessarily absolute truths, however).
1 Independent travel to China IS very difficult and definitely not for the average tourist. Obviously it can and has been done by many, but MOST people don’t have the time, the skills and the desire to undertake such an exercise. You and many others obviously do. I only asked about the numbers, because you don’t seem to feel that independent travelers are the exception (or minority) and I do. Even if “tens of thousands” of people traveled independently to China (a number I doubt), even then they would represent a “small minority” of the “tens of millions” of tourists visiting China. That is all I said.
And yes, travel to China IS more difficult than to other countries where we do not speak the language either. Among the reasons making it so are not just the language itself (spoken & written) but the shear size of the country, very poor infrastructure among many others. Most of us cannot speak or read Japanese either, but few would disagree that China is more daunting than Japan (there many more people speak English, they have generally excellent signage, great trains & public transport; all simply because they are much more developed as a country and have been at it (tourism) a lot longer. Again, I do realize that people travel independently to Russia, Bulgaria, Laos, Cambodia, India and other countries, but again, they are the more adventurous and experienced travelers (the exception), not the majority.
I think only a fool would say that it is just as easy to travel independently in China as it is in Europe (Italy, Spain, etc) – I don’t think I have to elaborate on that point. It is possible to travel to either place independently but it is NOT the same. I am saying this particularly for the benefit of those that normally do travel independently and perhaps they feel if they have done so in Europe they can do it in China too. Yes they can, but it is NOT the same. Just like running a marathon – many people can do it, but not most.
2 Just like you are telling people on this board that individual travel to China is possible, the same way I am trying to point out that group travel is also a good option for many. They will not automatically be cheated, lied to and abused in unimaginable ways. They do need to be informed and make wise choices regarding their itineraries, hotels, shopping options, etc.
One of the purposes of a board like this to ask others for their experiences and then benefit from their advice.
We do agree that it is possible to travel to China both independently and in groups and it is each person’s individual choice of what they are comfortable with. Which ever way they travel, the more they put into the research for their trip, the more they will get out of it.
This time I am definitely signing out on this subject for good – I have said all I wish to say about it; anything after this would only be argumentative and I do not wish to do that.
Once again – happy travels to all.
Oct 2nd, 2008 | 09:40 AM
#30
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 0
In amongst a lot of back-pedalling here, there's a failure to address some of the points made, a lot of playing fast and loose with generalities on figures, and still the assertion that independent travel in China is especially difficult:
'Independent travel to China IS very difficult and definitely not for the average tourist.'
You've already seen people post here to point out that they have travelled independently and that they are not superwomen, and I can almost here gales of laughter from the crowds on their Asian trips for whom China is just one more stop. The claim that it is not for the 'average tourist' is entirely empty if you're already picking your own definition of 'average'.
Independent travel in China is utterly commonplace, self-evidently manageable as even the most cursory search of this site will reveal let alone sites like Lonely Planet's Thorn Tree with its vast on-going discussions of very little else but independent travel.
But although the evidence against the proposition that it 'IS very difficult' is all around you once you're in China (in the form of people doing it), one argument being ignored is that the level of difficulty of independent travel has anyway no direct link to the numbers of people who do actually undertake it as a proportion of total foreign visitors.
The numbers of those who do it, even if they were vanishingly small (which anyone with experience of independent travel in China will tell you they are not), would given no indication of whether independent travel could or should be undertaken by more people. Possibly more people travel to France and Italy by organised tour than independently, but does that make those countries impossible? Of course not. It just isn't relevant.
Perhaps indeed more would travel independently if there weren't very many, both within the organised travel industry with their own best interests at heart, who frequently put it about that independent travel is impossible (or that rural regions cannot be reached without specialist help). And it perhaps more would travel independently if some who have only taken organised travel in China and refuse to countenance the idea after the fact that they didn't have to, or that their way wasn't best, weren't compelled to tell others that it is too difficult or inconvenient.
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is the supposedly special daunting quality of China. If you are going to allow yourself to be daunted, you will be. The actual arguments advance are a bit thin:
> Among the reasons making it so are not just the language itself (spoken & written)
This has already been tackled, and does not present a meaningful impediment to travel, as others here have also attested.
> the shear size of the country,
How could that possibly be relevant to most travel? Are most travellers trying to see every corner? If the six points, say, to be visited are 500km apart, or even 1000km apart, rather than, say 100km apart, does that somehow materially affect the process of getting a ticket, getting to board the vehicle used, or the experience of being on it?
> very poor infrastructure
Have you actually been to China recently? If you venture into the countryside you'll often have to do with the beaten up transportation you'd expect from a developing country, and certainly not with some especially arduous quality unique to China. But there's public transport going almost everywhere. If you are going from city to city, not only will you find airports on average superior to those found across North America (as surely even package tourists must note); frequent train services of a punctuality superior to that of most developing nations, and the rolling stock almost all airconditioned and between larger cities in particular of unexpected comfort; and luxury aircon buses cruising down a rapidly expanding network of new highways (some are so clean they require you to take off your shoes when you enter). Some of these buses, particularly in the eastern part of the country, even venture into quite rural areas. None of this is exactly arduous, and while it can certainly also be tougher in remoter areas, not with any toughness special to China.
None of this is very convincing, any more than is the random choice of Japan for comparison. Of course, if you find it intimidating that's up to you. Some would find Japan too intimidating as well. But those considering independent travel should know the facts before making a decision. One person's 'impossible' can be another's 'too tiresome to bother with', and many others 'dead easy', or 'working it all out was part of the fun'. Again, see the link given for an excellent first-hand account of independent travel by people who certainly don't consider themselves super-heroes, have no previous experience of China, cannot speak or read a word of Mandarin, and yet who are doing very nicely, thank you.
Group travel is indeed a good option for many, but no evidence that independent travel for many others. It seems absurd to deny it.
> They will not automatically be cheated, lied to and abused in unimaginable ways.
The will very frequently be cheated, lied to, and misled in entirely imaginable ways, and its important that they know that. It isn't automatic, but it is standard behaviour, and advice otherwise from someone who not only appears to have been subjected to this (tipping, shopping, poor food) but is in denial about some of that might perhaps be open to question. If that person actually tried independent travel in today's China before dismissing it, then arguments about its difficulty might also have more credibility.
To avoid the shenanigans commonplace on organised tourism in China, but not unavoidable (for the most part) intending travellers on organised tours need merely make the enquiries suggested, allow the answers to inform their choice of tour company, and sit out the shopping stops when they are unavoidable.
Peter N-H
'Independent travel to China IS very difficult and definitely not for the average tourist.'
You've already seen people post here to point out that they have travelled independently and that they are not superwomen, and I can almost here gales of laughter from the crowds on their Asian trips for whom China is just one more stop. The claim that it is not for the 'average tourist' is entirely empty if you're already picking your own definition of 'average'.
Independent travel in China is utterly commonplace, self-evidently manageable as even the most cursory search of this site will reveal let alone sites like Lonely Planet's Thorn Tree with its vast on-going discussions of very little else but independent travel.
But although the evidence against the proposition that it 'IS very difficult' is all around you once you're in China (in the form of people doing it), one argument being ignored is that the level of difficulty of independent travel has anyway no direct link to the numbers of people who do actually undertake it as a proportion of total foreign visitors.
The numbers of those who do it, even if they were vanishingly small (which anyone with experience of independent travel in China will tell you they are not), would given no indication of whether independent travel could or should be undertaken by more people. Possibly more people travel to France and Italy by organised tour than independently, but does that make those countries impossible? Of course not. It just isn't relevant.
Perhaps indeed more would travel independently if there weren't very many, both within the organised travel industry with their own best interests at heart, who frequently put it about that independent travel is impossible (or that rural regions cannot be reached without specialist help). And it perhaps more would travel independently if some who have only taken organised travel in China and refuse to countenance the idea after the fact that they didn't have to, or that their way wasn't best, weren't compelled to tell others that it is too difficult or inconvenient.
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is the supposedly special daunting quality of China. If you are going to allow yourself to be daunted, you will be. The actual arguments advance are a bit thin:
> Among the reasons making it so are not just the language itself (spoken & written)
This has already been tackled, and does not present a meaningful impediment to travel, as others here have also attested.
> the shear size of the country,
How could that possibly be relevant to most travel? Are most travellers trying to see every corner? If the six points, say, to be visited are 500km apart, or even 1000km apart, rather than, say 100km apart, does that somehow materially affect the process of getting a ticket, getting to board the vehicle used, or the experience of being on it?
> very poor infrastructure
Have you actually been to China recently? If you venture into the countryside you'll often have to do with the beaten up transportation you'd expect from a developing country, and certainly not with some especially arduous quality unique to China. But there's public transport going almost everywhere. If you are going from city to city, not only will you find airports on average superior to those found across North America (as surely even package tourists must note); frequent train services of a punctuality superior to that of most developing nations, and the rolling stock almost all airconditioned and between larger cities in particular of unexpected comfort; and luxury aircon buses cruising down a rapidly expanding network of new highways (some are so clean they require you to take off your shoes when you enter). Some of these buses, particularly in the eastern part of the country, even venture into quite rural areas. None of this is exactly arduous, and while it can certainly also be tougher in remoter areas, not with any toughness special to China.
None of this is very convincing, any more than is the random choice of Japan for comparison. Of course, if you find it intimidating that's up to you. Some would find Japan too intimidating as well. But those considering independent travel should know the facts before making a decision. One person's 'impossible' can be another's 'too tiresome to bother with', and many others 'dead easy', or 'working it all out was part of the fun'. Again, see the link given for an excellent first-hand account of independent travel by people who certainly don't consider themselves super-heroes, have no previous experience of China, cannot speak or read a word of Mandarin, and yet who are doing very nicely, thank you.
Group travel is indeed a good option for many, but no evidence that independent travel for many others. It seems absurd to deny it.
> They will not automatically be cheated, lied to and abused in unimaginable ways.
The will very frequently be cheated, lied to, and misled in entirely imaginable ways, and its important that they know that. It isn't automatic, but it is standard behaviour, and advice otherwise from someone who not only appears to have been subjected to this (tipping, shopping, poor food) but is in denial about some of that might perhaps be open to question. If that person actually tried independent travel in today's China before dismissing it, then arguments about its difficulty might also have more credibility.
To avoid the shenanigans commonplace on organised tourism in China, but not unavoidable (for the most part) intending travellers on organised tours need merely make the enquiries suggested, allow the answers to inform their choice of tour company, and sit out the shopping stops when they are unavoidable.
Peter N-H
Oct 2nd, 2008 | 04:56 PM
#33
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 27,709
Likes: 1
I missed this the first time through: " You say that “There is no tipping in China”. That may well be true for the peasants in the country but not so in Shanghai & Beijing."
This is absolutely wrong. Having been infected by the tipping culture in the US, a couple of times I attempted to tip a taxi driver who I felt had really gone well beyond normal expectations, both times in big east coast cities. Both times the tip was returned. I didn't tip in restaurants, and no-one seemed surprised.
If you're going to China, please don't try to import the tipping habit!
This is absolutely wrong. Having been infected by the tipping culture in the US, a couple of times I attempted to tip a taxi driver who I felt had really gone well beyond normal expectations, both times in big east coast cities. Both times the tip was returned. I didn't tip in restaurants, and no-one seemed surprised.
If you're going to China, please don't try to import the tipping habit!
Oct 2nd, 2008 | 05:11 PM
#34
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
thursdaysd,
the tipping was in reference to English speaking tour guides, not cab drivers or restaurants (that was what Peter N-H was objecting to with tour companies). None of my tour guides objected to their tip; in fact they thanked me profusely. As I said, capitalism is alive and well in China and growing.
And Peter N-H, I will keep my word and not engage or respond to you as I had promised (it is too confrontational).
the tipping was in reference to English speaking tour guides, not cab drivers or restaurants (that was what Peter N-H was objecting to with tour companies). None of my tour guides objected to their tip; in fact they thanked me profusely. As I said, capitalism is alive and well in China and growing.
And Peter N-H, I will keep my word and not engage or respond to you as I had promised (it is too confrontational).
Oct 2nd, 2008 | 05:51 PM
#36
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 27,709
Likes: 1
Paul - I rather doubt that the peasants in the countryside you referenced in your original statement have anything to do with English speaking tour guides. And Peter did not say "there is no tipping of tour guides", he said "there is no tipping in China". Period. Except by people like you who insist on importing it, or others who are misled by their tour companies. And capitalism is perfectly compatible with a lack of tipping - just ask the Aussies.
Oct 2nd, 2008 | 07:16 PM
#37
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
culduphere,
"I found there were more English signs in Beijing and Shanghai than there were in Tokyo and Kyoto. I could be way off the mark though."
Don't forget that Beijing (& Shanghai) just spent the last couple of years preparing for the Olympics. Beijing & Shanghai are not the problem anyway, they are quite western nowadays.
The problem is outside these 2 cities - how much English did you see there (did you even travel outside those two cities)?
thursdaysd,
of course the tipping refers to tour guides and not peasants. The peasants (and cab drivers, etc) do not expect tips, tour guides do (in China and everywhere else in the world). Tour guides know about westerners and their customs, peasants do not; that is why the tour guides have learned to expect it. I did not start that custom nor can I stop it.
If you travel independently, you definitely do not have to tip anyone. You may even choose not to tip your guides if you travel in a tour group; it is up to your discretion. I see it frequently in other countries as well where tourists avoid tipping the guide (even though the service was good). I think those people are ill mannered and “cheapskates”. You will not be arrested if you don't tip your guide in China. You do not even have to tip in a restaurant in US, for that matter, if you choose not to – it is always your choice. You can feel real proud of it and sleep better because of it - you are saving China
"I found there were more English signs in Beijing and Shanghai than there were in Tokyo and Kyoto. I could be way off the mark though."
Don't forget that Beijing (& Shanghai) just spent the last couple of years preparing for the Olympics. Beijing & Shanghai are not the problem anyway, they are quite western nowadays.
The problem is outside these 2 cities - how much English did you see there (did you even travel outside those two cities)?
thursdaysd,
of course the tipping refers to tour guides and not peasants. The peasants (and cab drivers, etc) do not expect tips, tour guides do (in China and everywhere else in the world). Tour guides know about westerners and their customs, peasants do not; that is why the tour guides have learned to expect it. I did not start that custom nor can I stop it.
If you travel independently, you definitely do not have to tip anyone. You may even choose not to tip your guides if you travel in a tour group; it is up to your discretion. I see it frequently in other countries as well where tourists avoid tipping the guide (even though the service was good). I think those people are ill mannered and “cheapskates”. You will not be arrested if you don't tip your guide in China. You do not even have to tip in a restaurant in US, for that matter, if you choose not to – it is always your choice. You can feel real proud of it and sleep better because of it - you are saving China
Oct 2nd, 2008 | 09:16 PM
#38
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 0
> And Peter N-H, I will keep my word and not engage or respond to you as I had promised (it is too confrontational).
No one who starts out by making a post directly targeting an individual by name and disagreeing with him extensively, then going on to get personal, is in a position to complain about getting confrontational. And posting in a public forum and then hoping to avoid debate by saying you won't reply (and then replying anyway) is absurd. There is no point in personalising a debate which should be about the facts of travel in China, for the benefit of those yet to travel. Let's stick to the truths of the matter, which are entirely independent of whoever speaks them.
But no one, having been duped in ways entirely standard to Chinese tour companies, should be encouraging others to be duped in the same way.
There is no tipping in China, and any tour company that tells you that there is is cheating you, using suggestions that you should tip as a way of keeping the up-front tour price low. China Highlights' behaviour is nothing more than further evidence that this is a typical Chinese tour company to which a wide berth should be given.
It's common practice, though, and as already mentioned, those intending to travel on tours should be examining tipping policies carefully. Some are only sprung on you after you book, and some then make it very clear that the tip is compulsory (and isn't that rather different from the usual definition and purpose of a tip?)
Others have a grip on all this, charge proper prices, and spare the visitor to China any of this aggravation. Yet others despairingly take a middle course, with the tour leader gathering together a tipping kitty, contribution to which is optional, and which is then used sparingly for sums appropriate to real costs rather than developed nation costs.
But as I said right at the beginning, there are always those who have fallen for this sort of nonsense who cannot bring themselves to admit that they have been duped. But for the benefit of those yet to travel, let's just run once again through the usual arguments trotted out, both those that in desperation have already been mentioned (some already tackled by Thursdaysd), and those tired old canards no doubt due to be trotted out any minute.
These conversations usually start with someone making the laudable enquiry: What's the right rate to tip in China? People who ask this generally wish to abide by local norms, and quite right, too. And the answer is, to abide by local norms, do not tip at all. There is no tipping in China outside that forced on the Chinese by insensitive foreigners, and that gulled out of foreigners by unscrupulous guides.
And here are the standard retorts:
'Oh you're so cheap'
Me, other better-informed travellers, foreigners resident in China (except for a few really clueless ones or those who haven't been there long enough to have their Chinese colleagues laugh them out of it), and 1.3 billion Chinese. They never tip. I'm in good (and very ample) company.
'Oh but these people aren't taking tourist services--those are the ones you have to tip'
No. The Chinese do not tip for these services either, and when recently a Chinese tour company did start to introduce such tips for Chinese tourists, it was the subject of sharp editorial in Chinese newspapers and the idea was dropped.
Only rapacious tour companies targeting foreigners (including some Western ones simply packaging up a product that's run by Chinese on the ground and who don't understand what's happening) gull them into handing out free extra money. And this is the money some of the guides themselves, whether they speak English, German, or Arabic, call 'stupid foreigner tax'.
'Oh but Xiao Mei was such a sweetie and worked so hard'
Xiao Mei has it very easy compared to most Chinese. She works in a relatively pleasant, clean, safe, and civilised environment. Lucky for her she's not running a corner shop or other small enterprise at which she would be working from the first hour there might be a customer until the very last, and for a much smaller return.
Xiao Mei has also been getting yummy kick-backs from every angle that can be conceived, and her total annual income, including the money made by cheating foreigners, may be as high as US$30,000 (according to a foreign professor at one of China's tourism colleges, and the head of one foreign-owned Beijing-based tour company).
That's several dozen times the salary of even a university professor. Does the earning of much of it by graft actually deserve further encouragement? No wonder Xiao Mei is so sweet and rushes about so much. She's got a second mortgage to support (or maybe a third by now).
'Oh, but tips are all they get.'
You heard this from the tour company, right? Is that a reliable source?
As already mentioned, it may be even worse. The tour guide may be paying the tour company for the right to take out the tour. And it's worth doing that because of all the opportunities for graft taking out a tour group presents. Different tour companies organise things differently, and sometimes restaurant kick-backs go straight to the tour company, as hotel ones do. But the opportunities for kick-backs from shopping, of which the cheaper tours tend to ensure there's plenty and to spare, provide the most luscious opportunities. If you're given a 'discount card' as a supposed benefit of travelling with a particular company, but sure to put it away. It only guarantees that prices are pushed up yet higher to cover the cost of the kick-back, and tells the seller which guide the kick-back goes to.
Even supposing there was tipping in China (which there isn't) or that tour guides were some special case (which they aren't) is this the kind of behaviour that should be rewarded, or the kind of structure that should be reinforced?
'Oh, but I gave a tip and it wasn't refused'
Oh please. 'I left the window open and the burglar didn't object at all.' This is nothing more than proof of the unscrupulousness of the guide. Try to tip in most real circumstances and you'll meet with puzzlement or an outright refusal. Trying to get a taxi driver to accept a gratuity for returning some valuable item you left in a cab can involve practically forcing open his fingers to put the money in.
Waitresses pursue you down the street to return change left on the table (and if they don't you're eating in the wrong, tourist-targeting places). There's simply no mechanism for dealing with this; it isn't the local custom.
But within the carefully crafted bubble of tours organised for foreigners, the industry has learned that there are some foreigners who inexplicably insist on handing over free money, and they've re-engineered things to take advantage of visitors in this way as well as in many others. They certainly want you to believe that for some reason all normal rules are suspended.
'Oh, but she expected a tip'
And expectation is proof of a right, as opposed to abuse of the visitor, in what way?
'Oh, there used to be no tipping, but China's capitalist now.'
As already pointed out, there's no correlation between being capitalist and having tipping. Australia, New Zealand, and Japan would all be a bit surprised to find themselves being called communist, to name but three. Even in countries where there is tipping the amount of the tip, and the services attracting tips vary widely. In China, as in some other countries, it's nil.
If you're staying in a foreign-run hotel, try looking in the manual in your room. In many cases you'll find a reminder that you shouldn't tip. In a few cases there are still signs up about this. If your bell-boy pressures you for a tip, just call the management. But the chances are good he'll be fired, so consider your actions carefully. (But in many hundreds of room nights in all grades of hotels including many of the most luxurious in China I've only ever once been asked for a tip.)
Live and work in China and you'll find foreigners who tip are the subject of puzzled derision among your Chinese colleagues. Many in China are embarrassed at the exploitation of foreigners by tour guides (although many others think foreigners are by definition fair game), and resent the sums they amass, although in some cases simply envious that they do not have the same opportunity. Even someone with first-class English who starts work at a foreign company or joint-venture is unlikely to be taking home at the very best more than a 30th of some tour guides' income; English-speaking staff at hotels make less still (although demand in recent times has been pushing their salaries up a bit).
If, armed with all this knowledge, you knowingly book with a tour company that practices this kind of deception, then perhaps you'll feel obliged to fork out, although you'd be wiser to choose a different tour company to start with, and all you are doing is ensuring the continuation of these rip-offs. If you take a one-day tour with an English-speaking guide you will not be expected to tip (there's no magic link between speaking English and getting tipped, in case that isn't already clear--there is no tipping), and certainly on tours also taken by Chinese the question will never come up.
In China, the sum you agree for a service is the price you pay. Not a penny (fen, in China) more or less.
Peter N-H
No one who starts out by making a post directly targeting an individual by name and disagreeing with him extensively, then going on to get personal, is in a position to complain about getting confrontational. And posting in a public forum and then hoping to avoid debate by saying you won't reply (and then replying anyway) is absurd. There is no point in personalising a debate which should be about the facts of travel in China, for the benefit of those yet to travel. Let's stick to the truths of the matter, which are entirely independent of whoever speaks them.
But no one, having been duped in ways entirely standard to Chinese tour companies, should be encouraging others to be duped in the same way.
There is no tipping in China, and any tour company that tells you that there is is cheating you, using suggestions that you should tip as a way of keeping the up-front tour price low. China Highlights' behaviour is nothing more than further evidence that this is a typical Chinese tour company to which a wide berth should be given.
It's common practice, though, and as already mentioned, those intending to travel on tours should be examining tipping policies carefully. Some are only sprung on you after you book, and some then make it very clear that the tip is compulsory (and isn't that rather different from the usual definition and purpose of a tip?)
Others have a grip on all this, charge proper prices, and spare the visitor to China any of this aggravation. Yet others despairingly take a middle course, with the tour leader gathering together a tipping kitty, contribution to which is optional, and which is then used sparingly for sums appropriate to real costs rather than developed nation costs.
But as I said right at the beginning, there are always those who have fallen for this sort of nonsense who cannot bring themselves to admit that they have been duped. But for the benefit of those yet to travel, let's just run once again through the usual arguments trotted out, both those that in desperation have already been mentioned (some already tackled by Thursdaysd), and those tired old canards no doubt due to be trotted out any minute.
These conversations usually start with someone making the laudable enquiry: What's the right rate to tip in China? People who ask this generally wish to abide by local norms, and quite right, too. And the answer is, to abide by local norms, do not tip at all. There is no tipping in China outside that forced on the Chinese by insensitive foreigners, and that gulled out of foreigners by unscrupulous guides.
And here are the standard retorts:
'Oh you're so cheap'
Me, other better-informed travellers, foreigners resident in China (except for a few really clueless ones or those who haven't been there long enough to have their Chinese colleagues laugh them out of it), and 1.3 billion Chinese. They never tip. I'm in good (and very ample) company.
'Oh but these people aren't taking tourist services--those are the ones you have to tip'
No. The Chinese do not tip for these services either, and when recently a Chinese tour company did start to introduce such tips for Chinese tourists, it was the subject of sharp editorial in Chinese newspapers and the idea was dropped.
Only rapacious tour companies targeting foreigners (including some Western ones simply packaging up a product that's run by Chinese on the ground and who don't understand what's happening) gull them into handing out free extra money. And this is the money some of the guides themselves, whether they speak English, German, or Arabic, call 'stupid foreigner tax'.
'Oh but Xiao Mei was such a sweetie and worked so hard'
Xiao Mei has it very easy compared to most Chinese. She works in a relatively pleasant, clean, safe, and civilised environment. Lucky for her she's not running a corner shop or other small enterprise at which she would be working from the first hour there might be a customer until the very last, and for a much smaller return.
Xiao Mei has also been getting yummy kick-backs from every angle that can be conceived, and her total annual income, including the money made by cheating foreigners, may be as high as US$30,000 (according to a foreign professor at one of China's tourism colleges, and the head of one foreign-owned Beijing-based tour company).
That's several dozen times the salary of even a university professor. Does the earning of much of it by graft actually deserve further encouragement? No wonder Xiao Mei is so sweet and rushes about so much. She's got a second mortgage to support (or maybe a third by now).
'Oh, but tips are all they get.'
You heard this from the tour company, right? Is that a reliable source?
As already mentioned, it may be even worse. The tour guide may be paying the tour company for the right to take out the tour. And it's worth doing that because of all the opportunities for graft taking out a tour group presents. Different tour companies organise things differently, and sometimes restaurant kick-backs go straight to the tour company, as hotel ones do. But the opportunities for kick-backs from shopping, of which the cheaper tours tend to ensure there's plenty and to spare, provide the most luscious opportunities. If you're given a 'discount card' as a supposed benefit of travelling with a particular company, but sure to put it away. It only guarantees that prices are pushed up yet higher to cover the cost of the kick-back, and tells the seller which guide the kick-back goes to.
Even supposing there was tipping in China (which there isn't) or that tour guides were some special case (which they aren't) is this the kind of behaviour that should be rewarded, or the kind of structure that should be reinforced?
'Oh, but I gave a tip and it wasn't refused'
Oh please. 'I left the window open and the burglar didn't object at all.' This is nothing more than proof of the unscrupulousness of the guide. Try to tip in most real circumstances and you'll meet with puzzlement or an outright refusal. Trying to get a taxi driver to accept a gratuity for returning some valuable item you left in a cab can involve practically forcing open his fingers to put the money in.
Waitresses pursue you down the street to return change left on the table (and if they don't you're eating in the wrong, tourist-targeting places). There's simply no mechanism for dealing with this; it isn't the local custom.
But within the carefully crafted bubble of tours organised for foreigners, the industry has learned that there are some foreigners who inexplicably insist on handing over free money, and they've re-engineered things to take advantage of visitors in this way as well as in many others. They certainly want you to believe that for some reason all normal rules are suspended.
'Oh, but she expected a tip'
And expectation is proof of a right, as opposed to abuse of the visitor, in what way?
'Oh, there used to be no tipping, but China's capitalist now.'
As already pointed out, there's no correlation between being capitalist and having tipping. Australia, New Zealand, and Japan would all be a bit surprised to find themselves being called communist, to name but three. Even in countries where there is tipping the amount of the tip, and the services attracting tips vary widely. In China, as in some other countries, it's nil.
If you're staying in a foreign-run hotel, try looking in the manual in your room. In many cases you'll find a reminder that you shouldn't tip. In a few cases there are still signs up about this. If your bell-boy pressures you for a tip, just call the management. But the chances are good he'll be fired, so consider your actions carefully. (But in many hundreds of room nights in all grades of hotels including many of the most luxurious in China I've only ever once been asked for a tip.)
Live and work in China and you'll find foreigners who tip are the subject of puzzled derision among your Chinese colleagues. Many in China are embarrassed at the exploitation of foreigners by tour guides (although many others think foreigners are by definition fair game), and resent the sums they amass, although in some cases simply envious that they do not have the same opportunity. Even someone with first-class English who starts work at a foreign company or joint-venture is unlikely to be taking home at the very best more than a 30th of some tour guides' income; English-speaking staff at hotels make less still (although demand in recent times has been pushing their salaries up a bit).
If, armed with all this knowledge, you knowingly book with a tour company that practices this kind of deception, then perhaps you'll feel obliged to fork out, although you'd be wiser to choose a different tour company to start with, and all you are doing is ensuring the continuation of these rip-offs. If you take a one-day tour with an English-speaking guide you will not be expected to tip (there's no magic link between speaking English and getting tipped, in case that isn't already clear--there is no tipping), and certainly on tours also taken by Chinese the question will never come up.
In China, the sum you agree for a service is the price you pay. Not a penny (fen, in China) more or less.
Peter N-H
Oct 2nd, 2008 | 09:36 PM
#39
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 0
> Don't forget that Beijing (& Shanghai) just spent the last couple of years preparing for the Olympics. Beijing & Shanghai are not the problem anyway, they are quite western nowadays.
The problem is outside these 2 cities - how much English did you see there (did you even travel outside those two cities)?
The claim is that independent travel in China 'IS very difficult'. But independent travel might well consist of solely visiting these two cities. If you insist that your definition if independent travel has to be travel to difficult corners of China then of course it is self-fulfilling.
But this has already been tackled. Most streets in most Chinese cities, including many unlikely to be visited by any foreigner whether for business or pleasure, have their names in Latin script. Most hotels of three stars or up have their names in pinyin (Romanised Chinese) or in translation, and this is even more true of those towns and cities that see any tourism at all, whether group or independent.
Did you even travel outside Beijing and Shanghai?
And, as has already been pointed out by more than one respondent, even if there were a total lack of English or Latin script, this is of little impediment to getting around as long as the traveller is possessed of a little common sense.
Ignoring the arguments presented, or pretending that large numbers of ordinary people (to whatever decimal place) with no Mandarin at all, don't routinely get around China on their own, won't make these facts go away.
Peter N-H
The problem is outside these 2 cities - how much English did you see there (did you even travel outside those two cities)?
The claim is that independent travel in China 'IS very difficult'. But independent travel might well consist of solely visiting these two cities. If you insist that your definition if independent travel has to be travel to difficult corners of China then of course it is self-fulfilling.
But this has already been tackled. Most streets in most Chinese cities, including many unlikely to be visited by any foreigner whether for business or pleasure, have their names in Latin script. Most hotels of three stars or up have their names in pinyin (Romanised Chinese) or in translation, and this is even more true of those towns and cities that see any tourism at all, whether group or independent.
Did you even travel outside Beijing and Shanghai?
And, as has already been pointed out by more than one respondent, even if there were a total lack of English or Latin script, this is of little impediment to getting around as long as the traveller is possessed of a little common sense.
Ignoring the arguments presented, or pretending that large numbers of ordinary people (to whatever decimal place) with no Mandarin at all, don't routinely get around China on their own, won't make these facts go away.
Peter N-H
