socalfam

My husband and I are going to China for 10 days in June for the first time. We'll start in Bejing, then go to Shanghai. From various posts and trip reports on this forum, I've gotten the impression that Chinese domestic flights tend to run late, and that overnight trains with soft sleepers might be a better option. Overnight trains would save the hassle of getting to/from airports and also maximize sightseeing time. However, the trains apparently have lousy food and unless we get the deluxe 2-berth soft sleepers with private bathroom in the "T" trains, we will have to sleep in a 4-berth car with 2 other people and need to use a marginally clean bathroom at the end of the car.. Also, it seems that one can't buy train tickets until shortly before the desired travel date so I may not get the "T" train berths. If my only train option is the "Z" train with 4-berths, is that still a better idea than flying? . I have enjoyed train travel in Europe and Japan. However, I'm a light sleeper so don't want to deal with a snoring stranger next to me and don't want to have to use a filthy bathroom.
Thank.you in advance for your comments and suggestions.

gearsau

I did the trip from Shanghai to Beijing in February this year. I was on a D308 , that left at 9:10 PM, and arrived in Beijing at 7:20AM or so.

The train was immaculately clean, and so were the bathrooms.
I did the trip this way to save $$, and I was lucky as no-one was snoring, except me !
Only problem though, is that while the train is " Non Smoking", all the smokers congregate at the area between the cars and smoke. So, if you get a compartment close to this section, you do end up with passive smoke.

As the trip is only 10 hours, who needs food? Most people seemed to go to sleep as soon as the train left, and they had their own snacks.

A schedule for you :
http://www.nihaochinatours.com/newtrain/trainlist.asp

One thing I just noticed on the website, is that it does not show soft sleeper for D308 etc. However, I can assure you that my train did have soft sleeper berths. You may wish to make further investigations. I paid 730 RMB for the ticket , plus agents charges.

rkkwan

I am looking at the latest schedule on ht1881.com (Chinese only), and some of the faster "D" trains between Beijing and Shanghai do have deluxe soft-sleeper with 2 in a berth. D313, D307 and D305 each have one car of deluxe soft-sleepers (and 12 cars of regular), while D321 and D301 don't.

The slower T109 (13 hours) also have one car of deluxe soft-sleeper.

socalfam

Thanks gearsau. I looked at the website - it appears to be a travel agency's site so I suppose I can ask them more about the berth options. From comments in other posts, I am a bit wary to book with an agency if they cannot guarantee the time and train I want bit it seems like it's legitimate outfit. DO you have any idea what their mark-up is over what one would pay at the station?

Thansk and Hi again rkkwan. I should mention that I got my visa last week and as you mentioned, they didn't ask about my air/hotel bookings. I was looking at seat61 before my post here and that's why I was under the impression that only "T" trains had the deluxe 2-berth cars. If the "D" trains also have the 2-berth cars, I guess it's a no-brainer to book that since it is faster than the "T". (BTW I realize that I should have said "D' and not "Z" in the original post). Problem is that I can only read basic Chinese so I can't really use the referenced website. May need to asj the hotel to book tickets once I get to Beijing.

Questions to both of you and others out there - woudl you take the train if you were us, and also, is it safe for me to wait utnil I'm in Beijing to get train tickets? We will have to travel to Shangahi 4 days after arriving in Beijing.
Thanks.

thursdaysd

See this thread - http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...g-by-train.cfm - for useful info on booking Chinese train tickets.

PeterN_H

And, in particular, this bit of the post linked above:

"The time in advance that tickets may be bought within China varies from bureau to bureau and from train to train, with the majority (and almost certainly this train and most others you might catch to intermediate destinations and then change--Xi'an being the obvious choice) only available 12 days in advance including day of travel. The observation, 'I wouldn't like to do this,' or similar, does not constitute much of an argument against booking tickets when in China since this is how China works, and booking in this manner is normal procedure. As remarked above, local agencies or your hotel can be used for very small fees to obtain tickets, and while satisfaction is not guaranteed I note from a quick on-line check that there are still six soft sleeper berths left for tonight's departure of that train.

"Surprisingly (and this is unusual for Chinese travel company sites offering train tickets), the Nihao information on the T69 appears to be accurate, and the price quoted for a lower soft sleeper berth is also accurate. The site is, however, worryingly coy about what its service fee is going to be, and in general sites of this kind should in no way be trusted for accurate information or honest pricing.

"While the Seat 61 site is an heroic effort to present train travel around the world, its chances of keeping up with changes in China are slim, it relies to some degree on user contributions, and its record on China is patchy, although the photography in particular is useful to those wanting a preview of their China rail experiences. However, the agencies the site blithely recommends are highly avoidable, their surcharge on a few randomly chosen journeys ranging from 40% to as much as 70% of the face value of the ticket. The page on 'how to book tickets' is inaccurate and incomplete.

"Best option: Take one of several fast overnight trains from Beijing to Xi'an with late afternoon/early evening departures. Book in Beijing, either doing it yourself or with a local agency. Main stations have special ticket windows for foreigners, marked as English-speaking in some cases (although that isn't necessary), and note additionally that you may book the tickets for trains in this case from Beijing West from ANY Beijing station as well as from dozens of agents with computers on the railway system whose fee will be...

"¥5.

"Typically under 1% of the ticket cost. Hotels and other agencies (who will just walk round the corner to the ¥5 agency) will charge typically about ¥20."

The material quoted referred to trains to Xi'an, but taking the D307 as a random example of a Beijing to Shanghai train, there are 7 deluxe sleepers remaining for the train leaving in about nine hours as I type, and 16 for the one on the following day. A lower berth should be ¥1470 (the most expensive ticket on the train), an upper one ¥1300. If you book at a station your commission will be ¥0. If you book at an agent on the railway's system it will be ¥5. If you book through a hotel or other travel agency it should be ¥20 (some will try for a bit more), and if you insist on using nihao or agencies recommended on the Seat61 website, it may run to several hundreds.

Peter N-H

PeterN_H

P.S. As for saving money, in the last two years I've flown between Beijing and Shanghai for less than a third of those soft sleeper prices, and never yet paid more than ¥900 on that route.

socalfam

Thank you both. I had seen the post and other posts which gave me a general idea as to the pros and cons of booking train tickets in different ways. Peter- I had seen many of your posts and realize you are one of the resident experts on this forum so I appreciate your input here. WHat website were you looking at to determine availability of the berths?

I'm just a bit nervous about waiting until just a few days before the travel date to try and get one of the select few 2-berth private compartments. I suppose I can just wait until I get to Beijing and if the compartment is not available, then proceed with the shared 4-berth or even flying. It seekms like the monetary savings in taking the train versus flying would be negligble as the deluxe sleepers cost more than airfare but I would save one night's hotel plus the cab fares between hotel and airports in both ties. However, I was hoping that the train ride would be an interesting and more pleasant experience than flying... Will have to think about this some more....

gearsau

I paid RMB 730 for soft sleeper on D308 in February, 2010. Agents commisions was RMB 80, and I was charged RMB 80 for delivery to my hotel.
That price of RMB 730 was shown on the Chinese Rail ticket.

I am Australian, and RMB 80 commision works out to be Aust.$12.55 , and $ 12.55 to deliver the ticket to my hotel.

Peter N-H may feel that amount is excessive, but, in my situation, I was arriving in Shanghai( Pudong)on a wednesday, and travelling to Beijing on a Saturday night,so,I wanted to ensure that I had a guaranteed seat. My thoughts are, that it isn't worth trying to save Aust. $25.00 and go to a station and try to do it myself.
Time = money. I would have to go to a China Rail station,and, I didnt know where any stations are in Pudong.

Having to spend a few hours going to and from Shanghai station was going to cost me more in time and effort, than the money saved by doing it myself.
The only time I used a travel agent in China was for the trains. All other bookings, were done by me on the internet.

I went to China to have a holiday, and not to spend my time worring about train tickets. Pay an agent, and let them do the work.

thursdaysd

"I would have to go to a China Rail station," - no, you wouldn't. As Peter and I both posted, you can use a travel agent when you get to China, and pay much less. And in any case, visiting a Chinese rail station is a "cultural experience" which is what many people actually want when they visit a foreign country.

I have traveled in soft sleeper with three strangers (as I travel solo) with no problems. In fact, on the Beijing-Xi'an train I found that I was sharing with the president of the university and his wife, and was offered a lift to my hotel. Consider it an opportunity to meet people.

PeterN_H

Agency fees in China of around ¥20 *include* delivery to hotels (or it's someone from your hotel going to fetch the ticket).

¥160 represents 22% commission, and between approximately eight and 32 times the local going rate (depending on method chosen) and this is a prime example of a greedy agency using an English-language site to take naive foreigners to the cleaners.

> Having to spend a few hours going to and from Shanghai station was going to cost me more in time and effort, than the money saved by doing it myself

This is not actually based on experience, is it? And it has already been debunked thoroughly under another thread.

Shanghai Station is only a few metro stops on an assortment of lines from Pudong and quickly reached for the 'cost' of only a few kuai (¥). Nor is there any reason to go there since hotels and other tickets agencies galore in Pudong will provide a ticketing service for the reasonable non-rip-off rates quoted, in just a few minutes.

There isn't any reason to assume that 'a few hours' would be necessary other than the desire to draw the conclusion wanted, namely that booking from a rapacious agency from overseas is best policy.

Some may choose to do it, and that's up to them. But likely few aware of the real situation and real prices will choose to allow their pockets to be picked.

In general the number of train and flight options between Shanghai and Beijing is so great, and the tendency to book at the last minute so completely the norm, that it is only on a tiny number of days a year connected with major annual holidays that getting between the two cities one way or another is likely to be found difficult.

Peter N-H

gearsau

Peter N-H and thursdayd,

You obviously have must more experince than I in dealing with travel agents and train tickets in China. I used to go to China for business ( first time to Shengyang) in 1996 when China was really under developed, to Shanghai 2000, Shanghai and Chongqing 2003, Shanghai 2005( twice), Shanghai, Yantai, Beijing, Shenzhen, Dalian , Shanghai in 2006, and Shanghai,Wuxi, Longzhou, Harbin, Qiqihar, Tianjin, Dalian in 2007,and similar trips in 2008.
Most of the time, I would fly,because of business schedules, and only took the train to and from Shanghai to Wuxi in 2008 on two occasions.
Even on my trip there in March 2010, I still found Shanghai and Beijing stations a confusing experience.
When I was going from Shanghai to Wuxi for the second trip, they dropped me off at near the station, and I ended up going the wrong way down some stairs, and no-one at the ticket office there spoke English. I did get myself sorted out eventualy, and made the train.
What I was trying to point out, is that the stations aren't generally marked that well in English, and for a person like socalfam who ae visitng China for the first time, it may be a little bit more difficlut for them to arrange tickets, compared to you who obviously have much more experience.

Now, to the cost of the tickets. Well I did think that 80 RMB was expensive for a delivery cost, but, as there are two people travelling on Socalfams trip, the deliver fee of 80 RMB would actually work out to only 40RMB per ticket. A small detail.

And,I have have mentioned, for peace of mind for Socalfam, its probably much better to have everthing confirmed before they get to China, than actually get there and be worrying abut purchasing tickets. Do you go to a country, then worry about booking accomodation..NO !

I used to live in Japan for 5 years, and covered Japan extensively for work. Purchasing train tickets there is a breeze compared to China.Most stations have English signs. When I was in URUMQI, all I saw at the station was Chinese and Arabic.

Have a nice day

thursdaysd

"Do you go to a country, then worry about booking accomodation." Depends on the country. Have done so in China, India, Vietnam, Laos.... Not so much in Europe.

PeterN_H

> no-one at the ticket office there spoke English.

And why on earth should they (although there are marked English-speaking windows at the most major stations)?

This is only a problem for people who choose to make it one. You simply expect there to be no English spoken and come prepared with your ticket request written down.

> What I was trying to point out, is that the stations aren't generally marked that well in English

In the stations at Beijing and Shanghai, which are being considered by the OP, there is English signage all over the place, and sometimes announcements in English, too. But again, this is only a problem for people who choose to make it one. All you have to do is show your ticket to someone in uniform. They are generally eager to get you in the right direction and on the train. Since most of the signs to platforms, that you are in the right waiting room, etc. are indicated by the train no. on signs, no knowledge of Chinese characters is required. If you can't handle these stations then you can't handle airports, either. There's little difference.

In short, if you choose to make this into a difficulty it will be one. But tens of thousands of independent travellers every year get round China without a word of Mandarin. All this takes is a little gumption.

> and for a person like socalfam who ae visitng China for the first time, it may be a little bit more difficlut for them to arrange tickets,

But, yet again, this observation isn't based on personal experience, is it? And there are hotel desks and agencies galore, a point that has been repeated until a certain blueness in the face is appearing.

> compared to you who obviously have much more experience.

Once again, tens of thousands of independent travellers every year get round China without a word of Mandarin or any previous experience of the country. All that's needed is a little common sense.

> Now, to the cost of the tickets. Well I did think that 80 RMB was expensive for a delivery cost, but, as there are two people travelling on Socalfams trip, the deliver fee of 80 RMB would actually work out to only 40RMB per ticket. A small detail.

This was stated on the site, or is merely guesswork not based on experience? Typically all charges with Chinese agencies are PER TICKET. Regardless, this company is thrusting its hands very deeply in your pocket, and setting out to rip off foreigners. It is dishonest in its charges, and certainly does not deserve this repeated recommendation in thread after thread.

> And,I have have mentioned, for peace of mind for Socalfam, its probably much better to have everthing confirmed before they get to China, than actually get there and be worrying abut purchasing tickets.

And, yet again, the argument 'I wouldn't do this' does not constitute any argument, does it? Innumerable foreign travellers in China every year would do this, and do do this. This is how China works. Tens of thousands of foreigners with no experience of China do this every year. It's a great deal easier now than it has been at any other time since 1949.

> Do you go to a country, then worry about booking accomodation..NO !

But of course I do (as do uncountable others). I travel like this all over the world, but particularly in China. Unless staying in foreign-run up-market hotels or Chinese jingji ('economy') hotels, booking in advance is precisely what you DON'T do, unless you particularly like paying too much (not uncommonly 100% upwards too much).

> I used to live in Japan for 5 years, and covered Japan extensively for work. Purchasing train tickets there is a breeze compared to China.Most stations have English signs.

I returned from a trip to Japan only 48 hours ago, and remarked while there how although English signage is ubiquitous yet there's less actually helpful (as opposed to decorative) English signage there than in China, (although the tri-lingual announcements on the Tsubame shinkansen were very good: Japanese, English, Mandarin).

> When I was in URUMQI, all I saw at the station was Chinese and Arabic.

But the OP isn't going to Urumqi, is he/she? And, yet again, this is only a problem if you choose to make it one. See common sense advice already given.

Yet again, people may choose to pay through the nose by booking services in China on English-language sites from overseas in advance, but there is absolutely no need to do so whatsoever. All the services you may require are available there, at honest rates, and with a little common sense you can tackle everything for yourself.

Peter N-H