Beijing - is the air quality THAT bad?
Nov 26th, 2013, 06:02 AM
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Beijing - is the air quality THAT bad?
My partner's father works in China and gets a lot of air miles through his job, so we may have the opportunity to visit next year. We have always wanted to visit the Great Wall and thought a week or so in Beijing with a day trip to the Great Wall would be really nice. My partner's father, however, thinks the air pollution will be harmful - my partner has asthma and I have minor(ish) allergies. This is something we hadn't previously considered and a little look around the forums has told me the pollution is pretty bad there. Should we rule out going?
Nov 26th, 2013, 10:13 AM
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The point of this question must surely be to look for confirmation that 'it's not all that bad' so that a desire to travel can be fulfilled. After all, the state of the air in China has received a great deal of media coverage easily found using a search engine; tha actual state of pm2.5 particulates, of ozone, and of the AQI in general is available hourly over Twitter, complete with concise advice for behaviour; and you have direct testimony from someone both resident and with direct experience of the air and familiar with your partner's condition.
Ultimately this is a medical question, so not one whose conclusion can be arrived at by fishing for the answer you want and hoping for a majority vote from the unqualified. Collect the freely available data on Beijing's air, take it to a qualified doctor familiar with your partner's condition, and get properly qualified advice.
There's no mystery overall: the young, the old, and the sensitive, if they do visit China, will likely find that for the much of the time (or most of the time, and quite possibly almost all the time) they are advised to stay indoors, avoid activity, and to wear N95 masks. It's a gamble.
Ultimately this is a medical question, so not one whose conclusion can be arrived at by fishing for the answer you want and hoping for a majority vote from the unqualified. Collect the freely available data on Beijing's air, take it to a qualified doctor familiar with your partner's condition, and get properly qualified advice.
There's no mystery overall: the young, the old, and the sensitive, if they do visit China, will likely find that for the much of the time (or most of the time, and quite possibly almost all the time) they are advised to stay indoors, avoid activity, and to wear N95 masks. It's a gamble.
Nov 26th, 2013, 11:10 AM
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Was in Beijing for 5 nights Oct. 25-30 and although I do not have any allergies or asthma, the smog still bothered me. My eyes were red for the 1st 3 days but got better. People were constantly hacking and spitting! Xian and Shanghai were the same.
Nov 26th, 2013, 11:25 AM
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Well, temppeternh, I was hoping to hear from someone with breathing issues such as asthma and find out how the air quality in Beijing affected them personally. I've googled (since I posted here) and I've seen the figures. I also know we've lived in cities with bad smog/pollution problems and been pretty much fine, and others which were considered less polluted but have caused us issues. I have no idea why you think I'm looking for confirmation that it 'isn't that bad' so I can travel. I wouldn't dream of going somewhere which would pose a serious health risk.
My father-in-law tends to massively exaggerate and worry, so we do tend to double check when he tells us something. Likewise, you can find all sorts of things on the Internet. Google 'Japan radioactive' as I just did, and you'll find dozens of sites telling you not to go near the place. My father-in-law advised us not to go. Most posters on here are saying it's fine.
My father-in-law tends to massively exaggerate and worry, so we do tend to double check when he tells us something. Likewise, you can find all sorts of things on the Internet. Google 'Japan radioactive' as I just did, and you'll find dozens of sites telling you not to go near the place. My father-in-law advised us not to go. Most posters on here are saying it's fine.
Nov 26th, 2013, 11:49 AM
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> I have no idea why you think I'm looking for confirmation that it 'isn't that bad' so I can travel.
Really?
> My father-in-law advised us not to go. Most posters on here are saying it's fine.
I rest my case.
> I also know we've lived in cities with bad smog/pollution problems
Again a search for positive reinforcement. You haven't lived in cities with anything remotely approaching Beijing's problems, unless you've lived in one of a short list of cities elsewhere in China that are even worse.
> Likewise, you can find all sorts of things on the Internet. Google 'Japan radioactive' as I just did, and you'll find dozens of sites telling you not to go near the place.
A non-argument, or an argument for never looking on the Internet for information about anything, unless you are entirely unable to judge the quality of your sources. Certainly not an argument for choosing the data you find that pleases, or for looking for responses from unqualified strangers on sites such as this. The data from the US embassy's machine is hard data, however. Proper medical resources are easily identified, as are the WHO data.
Qualified medical advice from a professional familiar both with the individual's condition and the state of the air in China is the only advice worth having. What 'most posters' here have to say is neither here nor there and mutual reinforcement of a desire to think 'it's not that bad really' the only likely outcome.
Really?
> My father-in-law advised us not to go. Most posters on here are saying it's fine.
I rest my case.
> I also know we've lived in cities with bad smog/pollution problems
Again a search for positive reinforcement. You haven't lived in cities with anything remotely approaching Beijing's problems, unless you've lived in one of a short list of cities elsewhere in China that are even worse.
> Likewise, you can find all sorts of things on the Internet. Google 'Japan radioactive' as I just did, and you'll find dozens of sites telling you not to go near the place.
A non-argument, or an argument for never looking on the Internet for information about anything, unless you are entirely unable to judge the quality of your sources. Certainly not an argument for choosing the data you find that pleases, or for looking for responses from unqualified strangers on sites such as this. The data from the US embassy's machine is hard data, however. Proper medical resources are easily identified, as are the WHO data.
Qualified medical advice from a professional familiar both with the individual's condition and the state of the air in China is the only advice worth having. What 'most posters' here have to say is neither here nor there and mutual reinforcement of a desire to think 'it's not that bad really' the only likely outcome.
Nov 26th, 2013, 01:09 PM
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Well, we're not going to go, based on feedback from here, other forums and our own research, so I don't know what about that tells you we're looking for 'positive reinforcement'. What we DIDN'T want to do was miss out on somewhere potentially amazing because of worries that might not have been that serious.
As for 'hard data', there is plenty of that about just about anything. Numbers and statistics alone don't tell the full story. A lot of the time they're not even accurate.
As for 'hard data', there is plenty of that about just about anything. Numbers and statistics alone don't tell the full story. A lot of the time they're not even accurate.
Nov 26th, 2013, 01:44 PM
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I'm glad you were able to make a decision you are comfortable with, Mariposa, in spite of some negative comments here. I was in China in 2006 and was dismayed at the amount of pollution in Beijing, Xian, Chengdu . It was distressing even though I didn't experience any apparent ill effects. The air was grey enough to make visibility poor. I expected it to be better in the countryside, but that was not the case except at the high altitude of the Tibetan Plateau.
The world is full of wonderful travel opportunities. No need to risk your health to have a great experience.
The world is full of wonderful travel opportunities. No need to risk your health to have a great experience.
Nov 26th, 2013, 03:27 PM
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Winter now and the heating factories, all coal operated, are churning out the smoke. Heat here generally not private, like in the west. Also car exhaust, even lately dust from minor wind storms. Often quite ugly. The first week can be difficult as respiratory adjustment, and jet lag, puts me down to cough, runny nose, lots of phlegm, etc. If an option i would advise to delay your journey here till mid-April. You may even see a flower here then.
Nov 26th, 2013, 03:40 PM
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How lucky were we, then! A week in Beijing, arriving home on 19th Nov, and perfect, clear sunny days for 6 out of 7. Spectacular day at the Wall at Badaling. One day had minor pollution.
I agree with the spitting, though. It was horrible.
I agree with the spitting, though. It was horrible.
Nov 27th, 2013, 02:27 AM
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Imagine how bad the air quality is based on media reports and then imagine that even our overstatement-prone media may be understating the problem. We lived in Shanghai for several years and eventually had to move due to the pollution - doctor's orders. And Shanghai is FAR better than Beijing...
Nov 29th, 2013, 04:01 AM
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Air pollution in Beijing is serious. I have not been there for awhile but people said if you think the air in Hong Kong is bad, you should see Beijing.......
I arrived Kong Kong a month ago and have been coughing nonstop.The cough gets so bad that I have to take cough syrup at night with pm so I don't wake up coughing. I usually have no health issues and never catch a cold in US. Now I walk around with cold and cough meds and antihistamine. It has slowed me down quite abit. Check before you go.
I arrived Kong Kong a month ago and have been coughing nonstop.The cough gets so bad that I have to take cough syrup at night with pm so I don't wake up coughing. I usually have no health issues and never catch a cold in US. Now I walk around with cold and cough meds and antihistamine. It has slowed me down quite abit. Check before you go.
Nov 29th, 2013, 12:15 PM
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Living in Beijing for a few years and it never bothered me but I am a healthy late 50s guy. Read this article by an American doctor living in Beijing. Better than anecdotal comments that you read here and there: http://www.myhealthbeijing.com/2012/...-from-fiction/
Nov 29th, 2013, 02:53 PM
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> Better than anecdotal comments that you read here and there
Including, presumably:
> Living in Beijing for a few years and it never bothered me but I am a healthy late 50s guy.
The article is rather odd, is written by someone who may have medical qualifications but certainly none in logic, and who has little to say to the visitor.
It begins by pointing out that cities not in China are also polluted, which is the tu quoque fallacy. How bad is *Beijing* is the matter under discussion.
It discusses whether breathing in Beijing is as bad as smoking. This isn't relevant. The question asked is how bad *is* it, not how bad it isn't. Supposing it were less likely to cause damage of discomfort than smoking this would constitute no argument against avoiding it. The arguments for or against avoiding it are based on its own qualities.
There are similar problems with his discussion of Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Paris. These simply aren't relevant, except perhaps if you are witnessing a mass exodus of customers and want to try and stem the flow by suggesting that Beijing is only a little worse. The argument still lacks logic.
> but don’t forget that we all spend about 90% of our lives indoors. Indoor air pollution is likely to be about 50-80% of outdoor levels.
Some other sources put this higher.
> So while you may feel helpless about air pollution, you still have control over 90% of your exposure
Chop logic even for residents, who may spend 90% of their time indoors, but not 90% of it in places where they can attempt to control the particulate levels. For the visitor a far higher percentage of time will likely be spent outdoors and likely no indoor time will be where particulates can be controlled, unless hotels are chosen with central air filtering (which earlier this year in Beijing was only the Sofitel, although others were threatening to install it), or which provide in-room filters (e.g. The Conrad).
Asthma, an increasingly common ailment and the point of the OP's query doesn't even get a look-in until the comments, when the talk is all of masks and bringing medication.
For the young, the old, and those with respiratory problems the question is whether a visit is worth the much increased risk of attack, discomfort, or damage (in the young, particularly). And for the rest of us it's a matter of whether sore eyes, a runny nose, a sore throat, a sore chest, and the likely need to wear a mask make a visit worthwhile.
Fond as I am of Beijing, there's no gilding the lily. And especially on days when it is so murky you can't even find the lily to gild it in the first place. For the time being enjoyment of the city is likely to be significantly reduced for many visitors.
Including, presumably:
> Living in Beijing for a few years and it never bothered me but I am a healthy late 50s guy.
The article is rather odd, is written by someone who may have medical qualifications but certainly none in logic, and who has little to say to the visitor.
It begins by pointing out that cities not in China are also polluted, which is the tu quoque fallacy. How bad is *Beijing* is the matter under discussion.
It discusses whether breathing in Beijing is as bad as smoking. This isn't relevant. The question asked is how bad *is* it, not how bad it isn't. Supposing it were less likely to cause damage of discomfort than smoking this would constitute no argument against avoiding it. The arguments for or against avoiding it are based on its own qualities.
There are similar problems with his discussion of Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Paris. These simply aren't relevant, except perhaps if you are witnessing a mass exodus of customers and want to try and stem the flow by suggesting that Beijing is only a little worse. The argument still lacks logic.
> but don’t forget that we all spend about 90% of our lives indoors. Indoor air pollution is likely to be about 50-80% of outdoor levels.
Some other sources put this higher.
> So while you may feel helpless about air pollution, you still have control over 90% of your exposure
Chop logic even for residents, who may spend 90% of their time indoors, but not 90% of it in places where they can attempt to control the particulate levels. For the visitor a far higher percentage of time will likely be spent outdoors and likely no indoor time will be where particulates can be controlled, unless hotels are chosen with central air filtering (which earlier this year in Beijing was only the Sofitel, although others were threatening to install it), or which provide in-room filters (e.g. The Conrad).
Asthma, an increasingly common ailment and the point of the OP's query doesn't even get a look-in until the comments, when the talk is all of masks and bringing medication.
For the young, the old, and those with respiratory problems the question is whether a visit is worth the much increased risk of attack, discomfort, or damage (in the young, particularly). And for the rest of us it's a matter of whether sore eyes, a runny nose, a sore throat, a sore chest, and the likely need to wear a mask make a visit worthwhile.
Fond as I am of Beijing, there's no gilding the lily. And especially on days when it is so murky you can't even find the lily to gild it in the first place. For the time being enjoyment of the city is likely to be significantly reduced for many visitors.
Nov 29th, 2013, 03:11 PM
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That article was filled with very little in the way of hard facts and simply amounts to a few paragraphs of anectodal comments itself. Denying that being in Beijing or Shanghai (where I spent several years too)has serious, immediate and very noticeable impacts on ones health is delusional at best. There is a reason that the expat community in these Chinese mega-cities has a far great exodus and turn-over rate than many other Asian countries. My package for pay in SHA was much higher than here in BKK, but they called it "hazard pay".... Two to three years was the most recommended to stay in these cities.
Nov 29th, 2013, 03:53 PM
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It doesn't say that. It says the risk of dying of a pollution related death is 32-49% higher in Beijing than in a city with 'clean' air. Not that there is a 49% chance of dying of one if you live in Beijing!
I agree with you about the article, though.
I agree with you about the article, though.
