hobbes

I comp agree re the Ritz Carlton, Jimbaran being over rated. I stayed there in Dec and then we went on to Ubud which I thoroughly loved. We stayed at Waka Padma in Ubud - www.wakaexperience.com. Very pretty tho a bit outside main Ubud - we enjoyed the rice paddy field setting. On a comp different note I LOVED the shopping in Bali.

stockexchanger

Agree the shopping was fantastic. I look at the pictures we have of the markets now and wonder why I didn't buy everything I set my eyes on!
Actually I remember why. It was so much effort to buy each thing. I would want to pick out ten things and buy them all (from one vendor)....and they would make me negotiate for each individual item. Everything is so inexpensive and in any store here would be many times the price. You can buy a duffle bag (a jumbo one) at the market....we got them down to $4 US but it was one of my first purchases and I hadn't yet perfected my bargaining skills

Spygirl

I hope, NoFLY-that you will at least give consideration to the fact that large western hotel chains should be avoided in Bali, but whatever you decide to do, you should keep abreast of developments, and monitor the Travel Warnings on the State Dept. website prior to taking your trip.

cruisinred

Wow, Spygirl, you don't know when to stop do you? I really find the tone of your posts condescending. We are all well-informed, well-traveled people here. Don't act like you are the only one that reads the DOS warnings. People have the information and must weigh the risks for themselves. Make your point once (OK, for you twice) and then drop it!!

Spygirl

crusin-there is absolutely no basis for your contention that "everyone" is well-traveled on this board and knows about the DOS warnings-the posts themselves simply do not bear out such a flip and careless statement. In fact, there is another poster here who sounds like he/she has no idea of what is going on in Indonesia, and apparently intends to go to Jakarta. You'd practically have to have a death wish to want to go to Jakarta right now, and I have to think that this poster simply does not know of the danger. You might find this surprising, but most people have very little idea of what is going on in Southeast Asia, and less still know about where to find State Dept. Travel Warnings concerning a particular country.

What I do find non-comprehensible and offensive is those who would prattle on endlessly about shopping and deluxe western hotels on Bali and the other Indonesian islands, without once mentioning the political climate and the danger to tourists of renewed terrorist attacks. As this is a travel forum, such topics absolutely should be aired and discussed, rather than stifled by those who seem to think they have the right to tell others what and how, to post.

marmot

NoFlyZone, No major weather issues with March in Bali. I think the other posters have given you good advice vis a vis beach to inland. I go to Bali quite frequently and personally I like both. My current favorite places to stay are the Legian Hotel in Seminyak and the Alila in the Ubud area. There are a lot of good choices.

As far as security goes, this is a tough one. Every day about 240 million people in this country get up an go about their business peacefully. There is a small, but active and lethal, group of Muslim extremists who are intent in disrupting the peaceful, democratic and moderate culture of the Indonesian people. The elections which are this Monday will probably exacerbate this group's activities. Most likely you will travel to Indonesia and not be touched by terrorism in any way, but of course there is no guarantee.

Despite the perponderance of fancy resorts, Bali and Indonesia in general is still a poor, third world country, best with third world problems. In addition to terrorism, travelers should be aware of diseases, lack of emergency health care, weak or non-existent legal and police systems. When things go wrong it can be a scary place. Having said that the wonderful people and culture, to me, compensate for the shortcomings and justify the risk. I wouldn't want to make that decision for anyone else.

So the most important point, is to be aware and make informed decisions. There are some 25,000 Americans living in Indonesia. We listen to our Embassy and take prudent care but we do not allow ourselves to be paralyzed by travel warnings. This is of course what personal choice and individual responsibility is all about.

Cicerone

Spygirl, people prattle on everywhere about great places to travel and don?t' talk bout the government or political atmosphere. For example:

1. Burma is run by a fairly ruthless and repressive unelected military junta. The person elected in what was widely viewed as a free and fair election many years ago has been under house arrest since the election.

2. Singapore basically has no democratic freedoms which we take for granted, like free speech.

3. Hong Kong also has almost no political freedoms. Their legislature is basically a rubber stamp for PRC-generated policies and only about a third of the legislature are elected anyway, the rest are appointed by business interests loyal to the PRC. (Its like if Microsoft could appoint your Congressman.)

4. Don't even get me started on China. One of the most basic freedoms, the freedom to have children, is severely restricted. The level of corruption at every level is unimaginable. Let's not forget Tibet either.

5. Thailand has a history of military coups and a lot of insurgency in southern areas which is kept in check by the military and the newspapers choose not to cover much. I would also suggest you take a look at some of the editorials on the Bangkok Post for the two weeks following September 11, 2001. The quite vitriolic anti-American rhetoric may surprise you. Think of that next time you see those smiling Thais. . . .

6. India has quite an infamous history with regard to birth control, including forced sterilizations.

7. Malaysia's record on upholding democratic principles is not too good. Elections are basically rigged because the ruling party controls who gets on the ballot. The likely successor to the last PM who feel out of favour because he disagreed with the PM's views found himself involved in a nasty criminal trial accused of sodomy of all things, which has lasted for about 10 years and the decision was only recently overturned.

8. And in Europe, the UK has a lovely little law that allows citizens to be detained in jail for basically an unlimited period without having to show probable cause (i.e., there is no habeas corpus).

Spygirl

Cicerone: all that you have mentioned is beside the point; the point being that those countries are not battling a lethal out of control terrorist group linked with al-Qaeda in the form of Jama'a Islamiya (and it's certainly not the only one operating in Indonesia) and the deluxe western tourist hotels in those countries aren't facing further imminent terrorist attacks as is the case in Indonesia, nor are they currently having western embassy bombings, and possible further targeting of other western institutions, AND they don't have flourishing al-Qaeda operations going on with wide sympathy in the population for such operations, (Malaysia certainly has al-Qaeda, but it is not wreaking havoc there as in Indonesia) AND those countries don't have urgent Travel Warnings in effect advising against non-essential travel to those countries- THAT'S what makes Indonesia very different at the moment, and as such, it stands in a very different relationship, and much more dangerous position on its own -so for posters to simply ignore this clear and present danger in Indonesia, and advise staying in all sorts of deluxe hotels that could well be a terrorist target, without at least raising the current events in that country, strikes me as quite careless and irresonsible.

Cicerone

Thailand absolutely has terrorist Al-Queda cells operating in it, and plans to bomb hotels in Bangkok have been discovered and foiled. Singapore has also discovered and broken up Al-Queda and other Muslim terrorist cells. There is good evidence to believe that Bankgok is the place where plutonium taken from Russian reactors has been sold to terrorist groups. Thailand is just much better at repressing the groups, and also at keeping it out of the newspapes or the newspapers are choosing not to report it. My point is that no where really is safe. I live in Switzerland and even my office has been the target of threats.

Cicerone

Also, please remember that (i) the State Department is very conservative and tends to err on the side of publishing warnings versus not publishing them (there are warnings for Jamaica and the Turks and Caicos out at the present time because of hurricanes), and (ii) warnings are always issued for an entire country, and then the body of the warning goes on to point out specific areas of concern. Bali is not mentioned in the latest warning, other parts of Indonesia are.

Finally, with regard to western hotels being targets, it is important to remember that the police in Jakarta have indicated that with regard to the Marriott bombing in Jakarta, the terrorists were actually aiming for the US embassy offices located in an adjacent tower. It is also important to remember that the reason the bomb killed so few people and did so little damage is because the hotel was on very high alert and had excellent security in place. The driver of the truck containing the bomb attempted to come up the driveway of the Marriott and was stopped by security officers, at which point the driver detonated the bomb. Without those security officers, the bomb would indeed have been deadly. I also would suggest that the security officers would not have been there if it weren't a hotel run by a western chain. Also note that the owner of the hotel is an Indonesian Chinese businessman, it is not owned by Marriott, and that this may have played some role in the choice of using the driveway of the Marriott.

NoFlyZone

I guess the first thing to be observed is that I was certainly NOT "factually incorrect" when I stated, "As for the State Department warnings, they've been noted for several years." In fact, that statement is entirely true as not only do I receive all new warnings, consular sheets, and other information by email as they are issued, but I actually read them. In fact, I, and many others, even know how to interpret them. So the alarmists should not make the assumption, as cruisinred stated, that others are not informed or experienced travelers. Nor should you put words in their posts as it were just because hoards of people are not running the other direction based on your warnings. You made your point, it was duly noted, and the rest of us wish to continue on. End of discussion.

The main thing I've learned here (yes, in advance of receiving the books) is that Ubud is a prime destination on the island. Sunds like a lot of fun and a good cultural/educational place to add to the list of experiences. We've already decided to give it more emphasis and exactly how much will be governed by total time in Bali, which I will learn once I arrange the flights. Maybe today if I have time.

Also learning that the shopping is really good. Whether the specific items are to our taste is another story. So now my internal debate is whether to change the itinerary order around from doing Bali first and Singapore second.

Fortunately, only the flight schedule needs to be arranged now and the details, such as hotel selection and activities, can be deferred for many months.

Spygirl

Cicerone: trust me on this, I'm quite familiar with where al-Qaeda operations are located throughout the world, and the fact that they are present and operating in other S.E. Asia countries to some extent does not alter in any way, what is being stated as the imminent threat of terrorist attacks in Indonesia and Jakarta specifically.

As far as the State Dept. Travel Warnings, there is a qualitative difference in those advisories concerning pickpockets, hurricanes, and political unrest and the current Warnings on Indonesia-those other advisories you mentioned do not in any way substantively compare to the information contained in the Indonesian updates-and Australia's advisories to its citizens regarding the current threat situation is even more pointed than the US. Like I said previously, the Four Seasons Hotel in Jakarta received a bomb threat just days ago, and Jakarta is jumpy right now, because the intelligence is so specific that it mentions a particular apartment complex that westerners should avoid being in and around in Jakarta-you simply cannot compare the dangerous situation in Indonesia focused as it is on US interests and western tourism - to your other examples, and to cavalierly dismiss the threat as no different from other places around the world is, as the Australian Ambassador said, "stupid."

Cicerone

I guess I have several comments to that:

1. I have never said there is no threat in Indonesia. I would not encourage someone to go to Aceh or Jakarta; but I have different views on Bali. Jakarta is 1,500 miles from Bali. If a bomb goes off in Chicago, do you tell people not to go to New York? Yes, there was a terrible bombing in Bali a few years ago. There was also a terrible attack in New York and Washington a few years ago. Would you encourage people not to go there? You may think our intelligence is better at determining and stopping potential threats than the intelligence agencies in Indonesia, I don't, I think we have just been luckier than Indonesia.

2. The State Dept is very good about warning people about a place AFTER attacks have already occurred there. There was NEVER a warning on Spain, even though thoughtful people assumed that their support of the Iraqi invasion would lead to some sort of attack. There is currently NO warning about Australia, which I think is probably a mistake. There has NEVER been a recent warning about London, other parts of the UK or Italy, but I feel pretty confident in saying that it is just a matter of time. THEN you may read State Department warnings about it.

3. I have never said that the lack of democracy in Singapore has any relation or comparison to a terrorist threat in Indonesia. Your comments was that "those who would prattle on endlessly about shopping and deluxe western hotels on Bali and the other Indonesian islands, without once mentioning the political climate. . ." My response was to point out that most people are blissfully unaware of the political climate of places they travel. I was not commenting on the relative safety of one country versus another.

Spygirl

Cicerone: that is unfortunately the nature of intelligence reporting-there are strikes with no advance warning, but I can advise that there have been PLENTY of advance warnings through the years that have been right on the money. In the past couple of years particularly, the quality as well as quantity of intelligence reporting has been stepped-up, through greater cooperation between intelligence services both in this country and counterparts abroad. But speaking specifically about Indonesia, there IS specific and credible threat information out right now, which is why it is important to be aware of it, as Marmot-an ex-pat in Jakarta says, and not ignore it.

Kathie

A great many people do keep up to date not only on travel advisories and warnings but on international news. The internet has made local news sources available to all.

While I consider State department warnings to be useful information, I don't consider them to be the last word on safety or lack of safety in a place.

I have a trip to Indonesia planned for November. The elections in Indonesia are coming up, and I will certainly be watching them with great interest. I can change my plans if necessary, and would if I felt there was significant danger.

Spygirl, you have assumed that people not commenting on the travel warning after you brought it up on the thread meant that people didn't know or didn't care. On the contrary, I didn't comment because you had already stated and restated and re-restated (each time in stronger terms) the travel warning. It was time to move on. We could argue about how much weight to put on the warning, but I really didn't want to argue with you.

Cicerone

Again don't misinterpret what myself and others are saying. We are not saying there is no threat. We are saying evaluate the evidence and make a decision. Based on the evidence, many of us would decide to go to Bali, others would not. I don?t think any of us are going to blame the US for a lack of intelligence reporting if something happens there or elsewhere. As you say, that is the nature of intelligence, it doesn't always provide accurate information. That is precisely why some of us would choose to go to Bali despite the warning.

Spygirl

Kathie-you're making assumptions without merit, some people do keep up on travel warnings, but the fact of the matter is, the vast majority do not- given that there have been 2 updates in the last week and a half on the terrorist strike situation there, with increasing specificity in the nature of the reporting, that is newsworthy in and of itself. So the point is, the information and warnings are there to be raised and discussed when questions about travel to Indonesia are raised-end of story.

Craig

I liked Orgy's suggestion on another thread to do a separate post on these travel warnings--too bad it has already been debated to death

hobbes

Thanks, Kathie, for the vote of confidence - as one of the posters who mentioned shopping - and not the travel advisory! - let me reassure everyone that it is not because I am not familiar with the situation in Bali - my partner's multinational co had an offsite in Bali in Dec and until the end we were not usre whether it would go ahead AND people were made aware of the risks involved. Spygirl, I agreed with others on this one - as u had made your point I thought we could move on and NoFly certainly still seems to be planning his trip so seemed like one could make other inputs.

Guenmai

Enough already! Happy Travels!