3 weeks itinerary China
Jun 26th, 2015, 11:07 AM
#21
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@kja:
You don't see much evidence because I rarely come to this particular forum as there's usually not enough happening to make it interesting or worthwhile. This time, I just couldn't resist hitting back. As to my bona fides, it's called "living in China for a long time and keeping up with what's happening in real time." That includes traveling around most of it. And I live local, not on the Executive Expat plan. I can pinch pennies and get value as much as the next traveler. When giving advice on China travel, I can at least take myself and my own preferences out of the equation (or at least come clean and admit that something is a personal preference) and come up with something that assists a person in the style and at the comfort level they can deal with in China. I don't get too iconoclastic about these things and I'm not going to push a particular travel philosophy.
The OP's first sentence mentioned his specific travel times: 21 July to 11 August. That sounds like a definite plan to me, into which a China itinerary of some type had to fit. If you got a different read out of this, then I don't know what to say except query the OP. There is no question that July 21 to August 11 is very busy due to school/university holiday period. I've traveled in China in many July and Augusts and while up through the early 2000's, summer was not too busy, that is no longer the case and hasn't been for at least 7-8 years. Anybody who advises that long haul train sleeper tickets for the train of one's choice are easy to procure a few days in advance of travel in July/August, is simply....wrong. Had the OP said that his trip was going to be in November/early December, I might have different opinion of handling some of the details/itinerary.
As to peter, let me just give you one example. On another forum, where both peter and myself use different handles, an assertion was once made by him as to pricing of a certain service popular with tourists to Beijing. Discussion participants who lived in Beijing countered that his information and advice was incorrect and out-of-date. He insisted that he was right, that we were wrong, and that he "knew" people who could provide the service at this price. I asked for these people by either open forum or private message, so that I could see for myself, and engage them. I never received any response from peter and he abandoned the thread....and eventually the forum, when countered on other aspects of China travel for which he made assertions that simply didn't square up with measurable facts/evidence at hand.
That doesn't mean that peter is always wrong. For instance, his assertions (found on multiple forums) that most "guides" in China aren't all that knowledgeable beyond spouting the Party line was true before and is still true today. But when it comes to up-do-date specifics on logistical and pricing matters, the advice seems to come from someone who simply doesn't spend that much time in China anymore, and has to rely on outdated past knowledge.
Moreover, peter is rather a bully who doesn't like to be challenged. I called his bluff on the other forum quite a while ago, and now I'll call it here. You can see from his last brief response that he knows when his bluster has been unmasked.
Over to you, and out.
You don't see much evidence because I rarely come to this particular forum as there's usually not enough happening to make it interesting or worthwhile. This time, I just couldn't resist hitting back. As to my bona fides, it's called "living in China for a long time and keeping up with what's happening in real time." That includes traveling around most of it. And I live local, not on the Executive Expat plan. I can pinch pennies and get value as much as the next traveler. When giving advice on China travel, I can at least take myself and my own preferences out of the equation (or at least come clean and admit that something is a personal preference) and come up with something that assists a person in the style and at the comfort level they can deal with in China. I don't get too iconoclastic about these things and I'm not going to push a particular travel philosophy.
The OP's first sentence mentioned his specific travel times: 21 July to 11 August. That sounds like a definite plan to me, into which a China itinerary of some type had to fit. If you got a different read out of this, then I don't know what to say except query the OP. There is no question that July 21 to August 11 is very busy due to school/university holiday period. I've traveled in China in many July and Augusts and while up through the early 2000's, summer was not too busy, that is no longer the case and hasn't been for at least 7-8 years. Anybody who advises that long haul train sleeper tickets for the train of one's choice are easy to procure a few days in advance of travel in July/August, is simply....wrong. Had the OP said that his trip was going to be in November/early December, I might have different opinion of handling some of the details/itinerary.
As to peter, let me just give you one example. On another forum, where both peter and myself use different handles, an assertion was once made by him as to pricing of a certain service popular with tourists to Beijing. Discussion participants who lived in Beijing countered that his information and advice was incorrect and out-of-date. He insisted that he was right, that we were wrong, and that he "knew" people who could provide the service at this price. I asked for these people by either open forum or private message, so that I could see for myself, and engage them. I never received any response from peter and he abandoned the thread....and eventually the forum, when countered on other aspects of China travel for which he made assertions that simply didn't square up with measurable facts/evidence at hand.
That doesn't mean that peter is always wrong. For instance, his assertions (found on multiple forums) that most "guides" in China aren't all that knowledgeable beyond spouting the Party line was true before and is still true today. But when it comes to up-do-date specifics on logistical and pricing matters, the advice seems to come from someone who simply doesn't spend that much time in China anymore, and has to rely on outdated past knowledge.
Moreover, peter is rather a bully who doesn't like to be challenged. I called his bluff on the other forum quite a while ago, and now I'll call it here. You can see from his last brief response that he knows when his bluster has been unmasked.
Over to you, and out.
Jun 27th, 2015, 06:44 AM
#22
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Wow! The level of intolerance is pretty high on this forum. No wonder it is almost inactive. Differences of opinions are usually a good thing, especially when supported with some reasons. Readers can reach their own conclusions based on their owns circumstances. I think that it is a good things.
But while this is true for opinions, facts are facts and there is only one answer when it comes to facts. As English is not my first language, maybe my tone gave the wrong impression sometimes. If that was the case then I apologize for this. But generally my facts are rather accurate even though I am just a traveler (who has been going to China 3 to 6 months per year for the last 10 years and lived there for a while).
I just found out that temppeternh writes travel books. One would expect such a person to be an expert but as his knowledge is greatly outdated, before I leave this forum, let me educate him on train travel in China TODAY.
A lot has changed in recent years. With the introduction of a centralized system, the ability to buy tickets from anywhere in China, the introduction of internet purchasing via 12306.cn, the extension of the buying window to 60 days and the addition of a large number of high speed trains (even to Huangshan now), the behaviour of Chinese travellers (they represent 99% of the clients) has changed a lot over the recent years. They even have etickets on some trains where locals do not need a paper ticket, they just swipe their id card.
It is common knowledge that tickets for trains in and out of Pingyao are very difficult to get, even more so in the summer. As I said in my first post, most trains for the period that the OP is looking at are sold out. This is not my opinion, it is a fact. I have to assume that the experts here speak and read Chinese so they can check themselves on 12306.cn. Others can check one of the many English sites with real time information like the one that I gave above. There are other such "sensitive" routes such as Shenzhen-Guilin (yes, they've had high speed trains on this route for a while) where high speed trains for early August are already sold.out.
So in the future, please check you facts first and when corrected, just accept it, acknowledge it and move on.
Bye.
But while this is true for opinions, facts are facts and there is only one answer when it comes to facts. As English is not my first language, maybe my tone gave the wrong impression sometimes. If that was the case then I apologize for this. But generally my facts are rather accurate even though I am just a traveler (who has been going to China 3 to 6 months per year for the last 10 years and lived there for a while).
I just found out that temppeternh writes travel books. One would expect such a person to be an expert but as his knowledge is greatly outdated, before I leave this forum, let me educate him on train travel in China TODAY.
A lot has changed in recent years. With the introduction of a centralized system, the ability to buy tickets from anywhere in China, the introduction of internet purchasing via 12306.cn, the extension of the buying window to 60 days and the addition of a large number of high speed trains (even to Huangshan now), the behaviour of Chinese travellers (they represent 99% of the clients) has changed a lot over the recent years. They even have etickets on some trains where locals do not need a paper ticket, they just swipe their id card.
It is common knowledge that tickets for trains in and out of Pingyao are very difficult to get, even more so in the summer. As I said in my first post, most trains for the period that the OP is looking at are sold out. This is not my opinion, it is a fact. I have to assume that the experts here speak and read Chinese so they can check themselves on 12306.cn. Others can check one of the many English sites with real time information like the one that I gave above. There are other such "sensitive" routes such as Shenzhen-Guilin (yes, they've had high speed trains on this route for a while) where high speed trains for early August are already sold.out.
So in the future, please check you facts first and when corrected, just accept it, acknowledge it and move on.
Bye.
Jun 28th, 2015, 08:55 AM
#23
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It's hard to know what to say when people post abuse and then storm off in a huff when they are challenged on that abuse. But indeed, this is a forum for the discussion of travel in China, not 'What I think of other posters', and I apologise for not letting it go. But the aim is to answer questions to which one knows the answers, and not every single one posted here regardless of personal experience and using looked-up 'information' which is in fact false or outdated.
I'll merely make one further remark before leaving this topic. China changes very rapidly, and it's a full-time job keeping up with those changes. China's habit of revising rail timetables, introducing new public holidays, altering visa regulations, and indeed changing just about anything with no notice whatsoever means that from time to time even yesterday's personal experience will turn out to be false today. That's just how it is.
> As to peter, let me just give you one example.
And I'll provide a less mendacious summary, since it illustrates the point quite well. In a debate on another forum *several years ago* (so no evidence for or against claimed present error, or any '40%' inaccuracy) a certain price was being touted as the 'right' price for one-day trips by taxi out of town. This price was far higher than needed to paid as known from repeated personal experience.
A list of prices actually paid by myself and by colleagues for a range of out-of-town trips was posted, prices actually obtained by real-world negotiation on repeated occasions during comprehensive research into precisely this issue, and far lower than those being claimed as the 'right' price. This deteriorated into torrents of abuse by the 'Old China Hands' who had paid higher prices and would rather call others liars than lose face.
But the facts remained the facts, and were published for the benefit of those who, instead of negotiating by saying, for example, 'I hear ¥500 is the right price' and thus paying either that or more, actually set out to bargain properly and with a lower target, and paid only, say, ¥300. A link was provided to someone who had been posting queries here on Fodor's, who had followed the advice given on how to obtain real prices for one-day taxi hires, and, with no previous experience of China and no Mandarin, had succeeded in paying precisely the lower price suggested. This seemed (and seems) to me to be valuable and useful information for those intending to travel in China. To others it's an assault on their Old China Hand dignity.
The debate, if it could be dignified with that name, went on and on for some considerable time, becoming more and more abusive, and having re-stated several times actual prices recently paid, with little difficulty, by myself and colleagues, there was little point in continuing. Declining simply to be at the wrong end of a coconut shy when you've provided all the facts there are, and are merely being abused for it, is not 'abandoning the thread'.
The purpose of such research, as was repeatedly explained at the time, is to find out what price a non-Mandarin-speaker to China may obtain for specific one-day hires with a little gumption and acceptable effort. As was repeatedly explained at the time, although conveniently omitted from the account given above, the names of individual drivers are neither taken during such research, nor their numbers, and for the reasons repeatedly given: that the point is to mention what price may be reliably obtained by visitors by flagging down taxis at random (the prices obtained were obtained in that way); that the turnover of drivers (and their phone numbers) is high, so there would be no point in providing them even if obtained; and that providing such names and numbers would see people flocking to that driver thus driving up his prices to exactly the high figures being incorrectly claimed as what 'had to' be paid. Entirely unhelpful. This is not 'abandoning the thread', but providing, repeatedly, an account of the purpose and methodology.
And the point of posting the facts of the matter was to help future visitors save money by at least bargaining for the lower figure in earnest, and with reasonable expectation of obtaining it, as others' accounts show they have. This seemed more important, and more the purpose of public debate, than propping up the pride of the soi-disant Old China Hand.
It is those planning trips to China who matter. Posting here to claim that one is being prevented from posting, and demanding that one be able to post unchallenged is both self-evidently fatuous and the opposite of beneficial to those who come here for advice.
But every forum, it seems, has someone who wants to be king of the hill and go unchallenged, and traffic is down on all of them from what it used to be, it seems to me, although I look less frequently than I used to. I restrict my remarks to topics on which I actually have some knowledge, and mostly those more interesting (sorry) than, 'What do you think of my itinerary'. I particularly wish to help those considering independent travel to avoid the depredations of the Chinese travel industry and other assorted scams, to pay reasonable local prices not inflated tourist ones, and to plan their travels in a way that reflects how travel in China actually works. I like to encourage people who seem to have the temperament to get off the standard treadmill and to visit corners of China, particularly rural corners, that are yet to be drowned in tourism (although that's only likely to lead, in the long run, to those places being drowned in tourism--there's no winning).
But really, please, and with apologies to the OP for my part in the distraction, I promise not to rise to further abuse. Let's get on with discussing travel in China, the purpose of this forum.
I'll merely make one further remark before leaving this topic. China changes very rapidly, and it's a full-time job keeping up with those changes. China's habit of revising rail timetables, introducing new public holidays, altering visa regulations, and indeed changing just about anything with no notice whatsoever means that from time to time even yesterday's personal experience will turn out to be false today. That's just how it is.
> As to peter, let me just give you one example.
And I'll provide a less mendacious summary, since it illustrates the point quite well. In a debate on another forum *several years ago* (so no evidence for or against claimed present error, or any '40%' inaccuracy) a certain price was being touted as the 'right' price for one-day trips by taxi out of town. This price was far higher than needed to paid as known from repeated personal experience.
A list of prices actually paid by myself and by colleagues for a range of out-of-town trips was posted, prices actually obtained by real-world negotiation on repeated occasions during comprehensive research into precisely this issue, and far lower than those being claimed as the 'right' price. This deteriorated into torrents of abuse by the 'Old China Hands' who had paid higher prices and would rather call others liars than lose face.
But the facts remained the facts, and were published for the benefit of those who, instead of negotiating by saying, for example, 'I hear ¥500 is the right price' and thus paying either that or more, actually set out to bargain properly and with a lower target, and paid only, say, ¥300. A link was provided to someone who had been posting queries here on Fodor's, who had followed the advice given on how to obtain real prices for one-day taxi hires, and, with no previous experience of China and no Mandarin, had succeeded in paying precisely the lower price suggested. This seemed (and seems) to me to be valuable and useful information for those intending to travel in China. To others it's an assault on their Old China Hand dignity.
The debate, if it could be dignified with that name, went on and on for some considerable time, becoming more and more abusive, and having re-stated several times actual prices recently paid, with little difficulty, by myself and colleagues, there was little point in continuing. Declining simply to be at the wrong end of a coconut shy when you've provided all the facts there are, and are merely being abused for it, is not 'abandoning the thread'.
The purpose of such research, as was repeatedly explained at the time, is to find out what price a non-Mandarin-speaker to China may obtain for specific one-day hires with a little gumption and acceptable effort. As was repeatedly explained at the time, although conveniently omitted from the account given above, the names of individual drivers are neither taken during such research, nor their numbers, and for the reasons repeatedly given: that the point is to mention what price may be reliably obtained by visitors by flagging down taxis at random (the prices obtained were obtained in that way); that the turnover of drivers (and their phone numbers) is high, so there would be no point in providing them even if obtained; and that providing such names and numbers would see people flocking to that driver thus driving up his prices to exactly the high figures being incorrectly claimed as what 'had to' be paid. Entirely unhelpful. This is not 'abandoning the thread', but providing, repeatedly, an account of the purpose and methodology.
And the point of posting the facts of the matter was to help future visitors save money by at least bargaining for the lower figure in earnest, and with reasonable expectation of obtaining it, as others' accounts show they have. This seemed more important, and more the purpose of public debate, than propping up the pride of the soi-disant Old China Hand.
It is those planning trips to China who matter. Posting here to claim that one is being prevented from posting, and demanding that one be able to post unchallenged is both self-evidently fatuous and the opposite of beneficial to those who come here for advice.
But every forum, it seems, has someone who wants to be king of the hill and go unchallenged, and traffic is down on all of them from what it used to be, it seems to me, although I look less frequently than I used to. I restrict my remarks to topics on which I actually have some knowledge, and mostly those more interesting (sorry) than, 'What do you think of my itinerary'. I particularly wish to help those considering independent travel to avoid the depredations of the Chinese travel industry and other assorted scams, to pay reasonable local prices not inflated tourist ones, and to plan their travels in a way that reflects how travel in China actually works. I like to encourage people who seem to have the temperament to get off the standard treadmill and to visit corners of China, particularly rural corners, that are yet to be drowned in tourism (although that's only likely to lead, in the long run, to those places being drowned in tourism--there's no winning).
But really, please, and with apologies to the OP for my part in the distraction, I promise not to rise to further abuse. Let's get on with discussing travel in China, the purpose of this forum.
Jun 28th, 2015, 03:34 PM
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You were the one that started the "abuse" peter. Like to dish it out but can't take it. Tell you what: you keep Fodors and your delusions of grandeur (relevance, whateber) and your groupies, and the rest of us head elsewhere.
For the OP, sorry about the threadjack. But looks like you got the best and most relevant advice on another forum anyway.
For the OP, sorry about the threadjack. But looks like you got the best and most relevant advice on another forum anyway.
Jun 29th, 2015, 07:28 AM
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Hi Laszlo,
whilst you are in Beijing, do not miss the Donghuamen Night market. You will be surprised WHAT people can eat: http://konniandmatt.blogspot.ca/2012...2-beijing.html
We wish you a great time, you are making the most out of your three-week trip.
I admire you for your stamina, happy travelling!
Cheers, Konni, www.konniandmatt.blogspot.com
whilst you are in Beijing, do not miss the Donghuamen Night market. You will be surprised WHAT people can eat: http://konniandmatt.blogspot.ca/2012...2-beijing.html
We wish you a great time, you are making the most out of your three-week trip.
I admire you for your stamina, happy travelling!
Cheers, Konni, www.konniandmatt.blogspot.com
Jul 1st, 2015, 01:25 PM
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Despite its long history the Dong Hua Men market is really a tourist attraction and photo opportunity these days, not representing what Chinese really do typically eat. Prices for more familiar snacks can be much higher than they are a short distance away outside the market.
For real-world street-eating go to the food court in the basement of the Arts and Crafts Mansion just on the other side of Wangfujing Dajie from the entrance to the market. Stalls around a central seating area serve dishes from an assortment of Chinese cooking traditions, and from areas as far-flung as Xinjiang. Buy a stored-value card from the central cashier, use it to buy whatever you want from different stalls, and cash it in to regain any remaining value afterwards. This is where local office workers go for lunch on real foods, many of which will still be unfamiliar to you, and at real local prices.
For real-world street-eating go to the food court in the basement of the Arts and Crafts Mansion just on the other side of Wangfujing Dajie from the entrance to the market. Stalls around a central seating area serve dishes from an assortment of Chinese cooking traditions, and from areas as far-flung as Xinjiang. Buy a stored-value card from the central cashier, use it to buy whatever you want from different stalls, and cash it in to regain any remaining value afterwards. This is where local office workers go for lunch on real foods, many of which will still be unfamiliar to you, and at real local prices.
Jul 1st, 2015, 07:19 PM
#28
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It's been a long while I didn't visit China for almost 5 years. Your itenary was well planned. Can I borrow to use it next time? If could be very useful for planning my trip to China next time.
Found this interesting article form tripadvisor about bugeting travel to China. Worth to check it out.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g2...et.Travel.html
Found this interesting article form tripadvisor about bugeting travel to China. Worth to check it out.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g2...et.Travel.html
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