Who are they kidding?

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Dec 9th, 2007, 01:16 PM
  #41
 
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Tell you what, travelgourmet, when an old Wisconsin lady attempts to hijack a commercial airliner, I will invite you back here, we can talk.

BTW, "middle-eastern people" is not what I defined here as potentially dangerous, I clearly broadened it to include more, mentioning the example of young Japanese...
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Dec 9th, 2007, 02:00 PM
  #42
 
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The bad guys always follow the path of least resistance. If little old ladies from Wisconsin are able to escape the scrutiny of security agents, then the bad guys will recruit little old ladies from Wisconsin. And don't assume that nobody in Wisconsin would agree to cooperate with them; there are millions to choose from.
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Dec 9th, 2007, 02:09 PM
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Mamamia: I am truly sorry, I forgot you also mentioned 'Oriental' people. But again, now that we have included 'Middle Eastern', 'Japanese', 'Oriental', and 'Cuban' what is left of your racial profiling strategy?

For what it is worth, all of this is rhetorical, and I don't expect you to respond.
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Dec 9th, 2007, 02:24 PM
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Anthony, no passenger is suppose to escape the scrutiny of security, of course not.

The idea behind GOOD security work is TALK TO THE PASENGER, LOOK STRAIGHT IN HIS/HER EYES, ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS. Some of those passengers should be further scrutinized (generaly thru the procedure done now), others can proceed to their gates.

This is the professional way of conducting security checks. Deal with the passenger as a person, not part of a herd.

That's why I mentioned the agent at EWR, she did something that was close to what El-Al security agents have been doing for years now, and from what we know, quite successfuly, so far...
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Dec 10th, 2007, 12:31 PM
  #45
 
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"I know what terror looks like. Try the 9/11 guys. This isnt brain surgery people." - of course! The only thing that is left to do, convince the ACLU that profiling is not always bad!
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Dec 10th, 2007, 01:46 PM
  #46
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Author: Mamamia
Date: 12/09/2007, 05:16 pm
Tell you what, travelgourmet, when an old Wisconsin lady attempts to hijack a commercial airliner, I will invite you back here, we can talk.



WHAT SHE SAID !!!!!!

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Dec 10th, 2007, 05:45 PM
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Wasn't a Russian airliner bombed by two little old ladies who smuggled their bombs in their bosoms?

The Israeli's appear to have a very intrusive system of screening, but my understanding is that it is highly classified, so no one, not even Mamamia, knows exactly how it works. Just having passed through it hardly makes one an expert on what they are and are not looking for.

I'm somewhat curious as to what a screener is looking for when they look right into your eyes; sharpened contact lenses? Romance? The hard fact is you can't see into someone's brain and heart by looking right into their eyes. You can't even reliably discern who is lying or nervous, as some people have the ability to conceal their emotions, if they have any; some don't. I would suspect that if you looked right into the eyes of an Islamic terrorist, who truly thinks he is about to achieve everlasting glory, you might see joy rather than fear or nervousness.

TSA is just doing what their congressional and executive masters have decreed. They could make the argument that since they started their screenings, there have been no bombings on planes, tying them with their El Al counterparts in terms of preventing such incidents. So their screening must be just as good.

I hope that if TSA continues (what government program ever ends?), they will become more efficient and we will experience less delay. But I think our air transport system moves so many people and cargo that we will just have to accept some screening delays, or abandon screening and open ourselves to the occasional lost aircraft. With hardened cockpits, terrorists should not be able to take control of an aircraft and fly it into a crowded target, so the risk of huge killings should be minimized, even without screening.
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Dec 11th, 2007, 07:04 AM
  #48
 
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A. Talking to a person, looking staright into his eyes -- is BASIC professional police work. Using other techniques like checking a passport or driver license against counterfit, is yet another.

Dealing with the PERSON, instead of conecntrating only on his belongings, is always a better way to catch the bad guys. Foolproof? Of course not, but a better chance to better protect air travelers.

B. Hardened cockpits? The next mega terror attack involving commercial aviation does not neccessarily have to be hijacking and flying a airplanes into buildings, and probably WON'T be... There are ways to kill thousands of civilians in one day, like by entering 10 flights and destroying them, and doing so without explosives. Rest assured that those evils there in Afghanistan, Syria or Teheran are much more CREATIVE than us in coming up with innovative solutions....

C. I never claimed to be an expert. But the little I dealt with it, though 2 decades ago, has opened my eyes to think differently.
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Dec 11th, 2007, 01:20 PM
  #49
 
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Even if we accept the fallacy that only Muslims want to blow up 'planes security isn't as simple a "harass the darkies."

What about Iranians? Member of the "Axis of Evil" and technically they're Aryans.

Keep them out of the sun for a while and they look just like "white folk."
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Dec 11th, 2007, 02:09 PM
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"What about Iranians? Member of the "Axis of Evil" and technically they're Aryans."
Hmmm.... The Iranian people certainly do not belong to the Axis of Evil, but their wicked dictatorial crazed fanatic leadership is very much the center pillar of this "Axis of Evil" today.

And there is a whole theory about ancient Iranian people coming from an Aryan background, but it sure ain't what the Nazis defined as an Aryan race...
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Dec 11th, 2007, 04:32 PM
  #51
 
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how much longer are we going to keep Mamamia entertained? When we get to references to nazi-ism as if it were a logical idea and applicably useful to profiling, it's time to check out.
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Dec 11th, 2007, 06:40 PM
  #52
 
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Unfortunately you did not get it at all, soccr. This "Aryan" thing is a theory about centuries ago and has nothing to do with modern times. But why should I bother to explain.
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Dec 11th, 2007, 10:24 PM
  #53
 
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I'm all for profiling, as long as it's behavioral.

***********

"No other members of other religions were ever involved in any terror acts against civil aviation. That is a FACT."

Not true. Ever heard of Hakan Ekinci? Museebat Singh? Samuel Byck? I can go on and on if you'd like.

***********

Finally, as one of my Chinese friends says, "Oriental describes a piece of furniture, not a person."
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Dec 11th, 2007, 11:47 PM
  #54
 
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No mammamia, it is you that doesn't get it. The point that soccr and several other people have tried to make - and you have chosen to ignore - is that Islam is a religion and not a race. You claim that it is Islamic fundamentalism that is virtually the only probably cause for air terrorism. Even if this were true (and I don't believe it is), you seem incapable of distinguishing between religion and race, and it undermines the validity of your arguments for race-based profiling.

There are active Islamic fundamentalist groups operating in the Philipines, Malaysia, and Indonesia. These folks are simply not "Middle Eastern". There are large numbers of muslims within the African population, and many of the countries in Africa suffer from rampant poverty and internal strife, making their populations attractive recruting grounds for manipulative terrorist groups. And we won't get into the fact that the people of the Middle East do not exactly all look alike. And it also ignores the possibility that a homegrown crazy might decide to copycat - I would think the recent episodes in the US would suggest to you that malevolence towards large numbers of innocent people is not unique to any racial or religious group.

Let us recap what we have learned today:

1) Islam is a religion. There are sizeable Islamic populations that are of Persian, Arabic, South Asian, Southeast Asian, Turkic, and African backgrounds (among others). If Islamic fundamentalism is your concern, then a race-based profiling strategy simply won't work.
2) Mass violence has been proven to not be confined to any specific ethnic or religious group. There is scant evidence and little theoretical justification that methods should vary between these groups, as well. Simply, your claims that only Islamic Fundamentalists attack airplanes seems naive, if not downright ahistorical.

So, at the end of the day, your racial profiling strategy isn't morally defensible and it isn't practical. Maybe if it were practical, you could ignore the moral problems, but since it isn't the whol idea has nothing left to stand on.
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Dec 12th, 2007, 04:00 AM
  #55
 
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Condescending on top of everything else? I know what "Aryan" means, historically, anthropologically, and culturally; think maybe you don't.

travelgourmet -- a good stab at trying to enlighten the doggedly unenlightenable. A losing proposition here but very generous to someone who wants to keep beating a certain drum as if we'd all fall into step.
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Dec 12th, 2007, 08:51 AM
  #56
 
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Good post, travelgourmet.

Only problem is, I never used the term RACIAL profiling, nor did I imply that. I actually made it quite clear that not only Middle Easterns were in the business of attacking air travelers, I mentioned TWICE young Japanese who were involved in such an attack (though sent by Muslims).

But I am for profiling. Certain passengers I would check more thoroughly than others. Sorry, but that old Wisconsin grandma traveling with her grandson I would spend a lot less time with, maybe just ask her a few questions (“did anybody give you anything to take with you?”).

Since, as I mentioned before, the real bad guys, those professionals who gave us 9/11 (a Satanic but brilliant, creative and well executed idea, you must admit!) are probably more creative than us, and they KNOW how security is handles in our airports today. Looking thru EVERY passenger’s hand bag and searching for metals on every passenger's body, is a routine that becomes a routine, and -- in my mind -- does not protect us enough from those creative evil pros....

For the sake of THIS discussion, I really don’t care to discuss and distinguish between religion and race. For all I know -- and you know well too -- it was 9/11 and couple other Islamic terror attempts (Richard Reid), that fundamentally changed the way air travel security is handled today. We’re discussing air-travel here, not any “mass violence” which you mentioned... Sure NOT Hakan Ekinci, Museebat Singh or Samuel Byck, names used by another poster, names most of us never heard of (long live Google..) ---- they sure are NOT the ones who turned air travel security upside down...

This is like some smart people claiming that harsh Winter coming so soon this year is yet another PROOF that Global Warming is nothing but a HOAX...

...Let’s be honest, please.

Profiling (again, the way I suggest it, and there are ways to do it prudently too) may be regarded by some as unfair, but it’s sure more efficient -- and safer for all of us, travelers.
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Dec 12th, 2007, 11:09 AM
  #57
 
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Amazing. To avoid losing the "lastworditis" competition, now we're going to troll/flame everyone on Global Warming.

We've missed you, mug.

Not.
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Dec 12th, 2007, 11:46 AM
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"now we're going to troll/flame everyone on Global Warming"

...You must be a true smartass, soccr.
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Dec 12th, 2007, 12:32 PM
  #59
 
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I'm just curious, how does one suggest a thread be removed when it seems to have lost it's relevance and it starts becoming personal? Is there a "flag" functionality, or, do moderators use their judgement?
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Dec 14th, 2007, 03:44 PM
  #60
 
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Profiling works better than baggage checks or metal detectors or the like, if it's done correctly. However, careful questioning works better still.

While details are often confidential, the basics of what successful security organizations like that of El Al do is not secret. One method of questioning for example, is deep interrogation. You ask someone a question, and then, based on the answer, you ask for more detail. For example, if someone says he's going to see his mom, you ask questions about his mom. If he says his mom lives in Chicago, you ask questions about her house in Chicago. And so on. If someone is telling the truth, you can go into any level of detail you want and that person will be able to give complete, consistent answers. But if someone is not telling the truth, inevitably there will come a point where he will have to make things up on the fly, and he will hesitate and give inconsistent answers. There is no way for him to avoid this (which is why the technique need not be kept confidential). Liars will always give themselves away at some point, and they can do nothing to prepare for this in advance. It works very well. However, it requires training and a lot of time—more time than most ordinary airlines can spare.
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