OOppss, I didn't notice the post was AAFF's and not CB's....

What I meant is this. Most times than not, by finding and attacking one of their training camps, we kill/capture some hard core, well trained, possibly in the process of planning an attack terrorists but we also may kill/capture some newbies that just joined and may or not one day become a loyal soldier for their misguided cause.

We had airport security/screening since 1973 so I really don't know where you get the notion that it all started after 9/11.

Yeah, well, problem is, it takes ONE single guy to carry out an attack that can kill hundreds of people, if not thousands....

The war on terror is a LONG, tedious process, not only bombing one camp here, or ten camps there... Today almost EVERY country in Europe is LITTERED with Muslim extremists (Britain, France, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Holland, even Scandinavia), home grown, local citizens, who never traveled to Afghanistan, yet are ready to serve Allah by massacring the Infidels.

Nothing is fool proof, of course.... That's why there is no one solution to this. And we also need a lot of luck...

<i>We had airport security/screening since 1973 so I really don't know where you get the notion that it all started after 9/11. </i>
I don't know about 1973. I was not living in the USA then. I KNOW when I was traveling here, in 1977 (flying coast to coast) and then living here since 1985 --- there was NO security in our airports, at least NOTHING like what we see today...

Maybe in Miami, yes, but not the rest of the country.

<i>United States

Prior to the 1970s American airports had minimal security arrangements to prevent aircraft hijackings. Measures were introduced starting in the late 1960s after several high-profile hijackings.

Sky marshals were introduced in 1970 but there were insufficient numbers to protect every flight and hijackings continued to take place. Consequently in late 1972, the FAA required that all airlines begin screening passengers and their carry-on baggage by January 5, 1973. This screening was generally contracted to private security companies. Private companies would bid on these contracts, with the lowest bid usually being the winning one. The airline that had operational control of the departure concourse controlled by a given checkpoint would hold that contract. Although an airline would control the operation of a checkpoint, oversight authority was held by the FAA. C.F.R. Title 14 restrictions did not permit a relevant airport authority to exercise any oversight over checkpoint operations.</i>


and


<i>Following the hijacking of eight airliners to Cuba in January 1969, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) created the Task Force on the Deterrence of Air Piracy. The Task Force developed a hijacker “profile” that could be used along with metal detectors (magnetometers) in screening passengers. In October, Eastern Air Lines began using the system, and four more airlines followed in 1970. Although the system seemed effective, a hijacking by Arab terrorists in September 1970, during which four airliners were blown up, convinced the White House that stronger steps were needed. On September 11, 1970, President Richard Nixon announced a comprehensive anti-hijacking program that included a Federal marshal program.



In early March 1972, the discovery of bombs on three airliners led President Nixon to speed certain FAA rulemaking actions to tighten airline security. In October, however, four hijackers bound for Cuba killed a ticket agent. The next month, three criminals seriously wounded the copilot of a Southern Airways flight and forced the plane to takeoff even after an FBI agent shot out its tires. These violent hijackings triggered a landmark change in aviation security. <b>In December, the FAA issued an emergency rule making inspection of carry-on baggage and scanning of all passengers by airlines mandatory at the start of 1973. An anti-hijacking bill signed in August 1974, sanctioned the universal screening.</b>



These stringent measures paid off, and the number of U.S. hijackings never returned to the worst levels before 1973. No scheduled airliners were hijacked in the United States until September 1976, when Croatian nationalists commandeered a jetliner. Two fatal bombings did occur, though: a bomb exploded in September 1974, on a U.S. plane bound from Tel Aviv to New York, killing all 88 persons aboard, and a bomb exploded in a locker at New York's LaGuardia Airport in December 1975, killing 11. That bombing caused airports to locate lockers where they could be monitored.</i>

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...rity/POL18.htm

Well, all I can say from MY experience, is that by the mid 80s everything must have gotten calm again, because I took quite a few flights between 1985 and the mid 90s, and there was practiically no screening of air travelers or their luggage... I was actually shocked when first arriving at ORD in 1985, with my former &quot;career&quot; in airport security, to see how laxed everything was....

With all due respect either your memory is failing you or you just don't want to accept <b>facts</b>:

From another thread where you posted the following:

<i>No other members of other religions were ever involved in any terror acts against civil aviation. That is a FACT.</i>

Totally false, yet you still insisted on your facts for some time after your assertion was proven wrong.

On this thread you stated and keep on insisting that airport security as we know it started after 9/11. Again, totally false. Airport security as we know it today started on 1/5/73 with profiling, metal detection and luggage screening. Over time techniques and technology was/is improving but all 9/11 did was to infuse more money quickly for better technology and a new fed agency, but in no way was it a starting point. btw, the feds infused tons of cash after 9/11 but most in the business feel that most of it was/is being wasted, nothing really improved. Congressional oversight committee is getting very impatiant with TSA. During NOV hearings GAO reported to the committee that our airports and planes are no safer than before 9/11. In the last few months their agents were able to smuggle bomb components which could be assembled and used once past security, weapons, etc in 19 major airports. That's after billion$ spend in the last 6 years.

Please know some solid facts before debating an issue and don't just make baseless statements that make you look ridiculous.

That said,

Merry Christmas!

Santa tracker

www.noradsanta.org

AAFF, I didn't spend time on the internet doing the very extensive research that you've done, I admit. I was posting from memory, people speak from their memory, happens.

Your research is well appreciated , but if you claim that air travelers used to stand in those same long lines for security BEFORE 9/11, with all the restrictions as to what they could carry with them, the way they're restricted TODAY ---- I must DOUBT you've ever passed thru an American airport (or any European airport, or Asian airport for that matter) BEFORE 9/11.... Maybe you've become a frequent flyer AFTER 9/11?

Things changed DRAMATICALLY as a result of 9/11 (even if it took some time to organize it all). ANY traveler who was above the age of 5 on 9/10/2001 can attest to that...

Merry Christmas to all.

Uh no, mamamia, that is not correct. I remember back around 1980..no doubt due to highjacking of planes to Cuba or elsewhere security on one particular flight to Miama was so tight I wished I wasn't taking the flight.

Another incident..1998..pre 911..I was wanded and &quot;patted down&quot; my carryone was rubbed with something to determin if I had explosives in my bag..I had to sit down and take off my shoes and security took them away for a good ten minutes before letting me put them back on. Etc, etc. My dear late husband would practically have to strip, lol, to get through the motion detactor as for some reason (we never figured out why) he would always cause it to beep. I remember another flight when my checkin bag was completely gone through and my finger nail polish was taken from me and that was way before 911.

Which airport/s did these incidents happen at, LoveItaly?

First time I ever flew was in 1972 just before Christmas. My sister and I flew ORD-WAW-ORD with a refueling stop in Reykjavik. I would be lying if I told you what if any security was in place. I don't remember. I was only 13.

Next time I flew was in 1978, ORD-FRA-ORD. My best friend and I went to Europe for the summer after our HS graduation. Again, I would be lying to you if I told you what if any security was in place. I don't remember.

But since early 80s I started to fly somewhat frequently. At first it was just my gf/later wife, and it was all leisure, but on the average we flew about 4 times a year. We lived in Chicago and out favorite destinations at the time were Jamaica, south Florida, California. Yes, I do remember security and yes it was there. ORD, MDW, RSW, LAX, SAN, MIA, etc...

Since mid 90s I became a VERY frequent flyer. SRQ, TPA were and are my 2 home ports with MIA, LGA, JFK, BOS, ORD, LAX, SFO, SEA (plus few more) the other domestic ports and Europe, Asia, Africa, Middle East, South America, South Pacific have been and still are my international destinations. As far as I can remember security was in place in EVERY airport mentioned above.

YMMV.

The word &quot;security&quot; can mean a LOT, of course.... But don't tell us it was as extensive, time consuming, and involving the hassle we're going thru today....

'Cause if you insist nothing has change between airport security before 9/11 and today, I would ask WHAT IS THIS ALL DISCUSSION ABOUT, why complain NOW about security in our airports?....

Guess what? I will tell you....

Since the PanAm bombing in 1988, all electronics had to be taken out of carry ons for examination and laptops had to be actually switched on. If the battery was down you had to actually plug it in. The &quot;sleep&quot; mode software was the direct result of that security directive. Thanks to new technology, these days the laptops have to be out of a bag only, so it actually makes security less of a hassle today.

There were lines.

The main differences between pre and after 9/11?

ID check, shoes, liquids in a plastic bag, jackets off and random secondary check became more of a hassle.

Anybody not flying is not allowed to go to the gate area(with few exceptions) which again in itself, this directive helps making the security check somewhat quicker and of an improvement IMHO as it's not bottled up with 20 family members going through the metal detectors just so they can cram the gate area to see one of their loved ones off or to greet them.

Some improvements, some extra hassles but security as we know today was just as much of a hassle pre 9/11 as it it today.

Happy Holidays!

So we agree that 9/11 <b><u>DID</u></b> MAKE A DIFFERENCE, extensive or not, that's a subjective matter.

And as you say, PanAm bombing in 1988, which was another Islamic job (perpetrated by Libyan government agents), was another major terror attack that changed the way security has been conducted in airports...

I remember the security from back in the late 70s and 80s (okay, yes - I am old) and since I travel constantly for work - most of it international - I deal with airport personnel constantly. I have to say, and maybe I've been lucky - I have not seen bad behavior by any TSA agent - and I have seen some pretty nasty and upset passengers push them really hard. I'm sure there are jerks in every line of work, but I think TSA does a decent job. I remember the &quot;service&quot; being much worse when it was private contractors before 9/11... The only thing I don't quite understand is why you have to take the laptop out of the bag, when it's going through the xray anyway..... That is one rule that most of the rest of the world doesn't enforce...

No we don't agree....

<b>So we agree that 9/11 DID MAKE A DIFFERENCE</b>,

We're no safer now that we were in the 70s, 80's and 90's.

It's been proven that harrasing innocent Americans did nothing to improve our aviation security. TSA is a total waste of resources and should be disbanded. The sooner the better.

The most poignant remark made by the GAO to Congress after their investigation of TSA was this:

&quot;We find no difference between private airport security and TSA. Private security was no worst than TSA in catching illegal items&quot;,

yet TSA is costing us billion$. Private security will probably cost 1/2 as much if not less.....

You're playing with words, AAFF. I did not make any claims as to whether we're safer now than before 9/11....

...And you don't know that either, nor ANYBODY knows that, since we don't know if and when did Mr. Bin Laden plan another attack on our civil aviation.... But there is a GOOD chance he was DETERRED from perpetrating another attack, realizing the presence of the TSA in our airports.

The fact there hasn't been any attempt for a major attack on us -- MEANS NOTHING! You and I know it could happen tomorrow morning!

The bottom line is, as ANY traveler who's been passing thru airports in the past, say 10 years can attest to, 9/11 did make a change in the way security is handled...

&quot;harrasing innocent Americans did nothing to improve our aviation security.&quot; ---- Let's not get carried away here, shall we.... They sure don't deserve this, even though they chould be doing their job a bit differently.

You want to take it away from the TSA and give it back to private contractors? Fine with me (though I see some issues with that too), but one thing is very clear: WE CAN'T LEAVE OUR AIRPORTS AND AIRPLANES WITHOUT SECURITY SCREENING. Not while the evils out there are working day and night on killing us, infidel Westerners, and abolishing Western culture.

Only differences I see in comparing pre (did not fly much until the late 80s) to post 9/11 travels in Continental Europe:

Rules on liquids, unpack liquids and computer and screen seperately, only one lighter per person, boarding pass required to go thru security.

The rest remained the same: mandatory screening by metal detectors and x-rays for carry on. Mandatory pat-down when metal detector goes off.

Extra time at checkpoints: appr. 30-60 seconds.
Total time to pass security at my &quot;home base&quot; airport: 5-15 minutes

Still beats me why enhanced security has to result in longer lines or chaos at the airports.
If security is that important, get more checkpoints. Airports now had 6 years to straighten out their operations.