Chiona Airlines captain can't understand nor speak English
Sep 25th, 2007, 03:29 PM
#1
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Chiona Airlines captain can't understand nor speak English
English is mandatory for any commercial pilot all over the world, as it is the language in the airline business.
Kind of scary listening to the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob7mc...ed&search=
Kind of scary listening to the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob7mc...ed&search=
Sep 25th, 2007, 06:20 PM
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That JFK tower tape has created many heated discussions around the globe since it came out a few months ago.
On one hand, one may argue that the controller uses a lot of "non-standard" terminology. On the other hand, those are very simple English phrases and questions. So, maybe the Air China pilots can speak and understand official standard aviation terminology, but they certainly can't speak or understand simple English.
On one hand, one may argue that the controller uses a lot of "non-standard" terminology. On the other hand, those are very simple English phrases and questions. So, maybe the Air China pilots can speak and understand official standard aviation terminology, but they certainly can't speak or understand simple English.
Sep 26th, 2007, 07:43 AM
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I believe any pilots flying internationally are required to know "aviation English" for sure, which is what the tower was using. And whether it's "aviation English" or "standard English," it's absolutely basic to know what a question is, and the difference between that and a statement.
Sep 26th, 2007, 08:06 AM
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Eureka! Funny, I just realized something after reading soccr's post.
In Chinese, questions and statements are often differentiated by the tone at the end of the sentence. In some cases, the actual terms can even be exactly the same, or with just a exclamation sound at the end.
But in English, the whole sentence are structured differently, while the tone at the end can remain the same and not-raised.
Apparently, this pilot don't even understand that difference.
For example, in English:
Statement - You have a gate.
Question - Do you have a gate?
In Chinese:
Statement - Ni yau zha.
Question - Ni yau zha? with the tone of the last word going up.
So, when he hears the JFK tower says "Do you have a gate?", because the tone of the last word wasn't raised, the pilot couldn't understand if that's a statement or a question.
In Chinese, questions and statements are often differentiated by the tone at the end of the sentence. In some cases, the actual terms can even be exactly the same, or with just a exclamation sound at the end.
But in English, the whole sentence are structured differently, while the tone at the end can remain the same and not-raised.
Apparently, this pilot don't even understand that difference.
For example, in English:
Statement - You have a gate.
Question - Do you have a gate?
In Chinese:
Statement - Ni yau zha.
Question - Ni yau zha? with the tone of the last word going up.
So, when he hears the JFK tower says "Do you have a gate?", because the tone of the last word wasn't raised, the pilot couldn't understand if that's a statement or a question.
Sep 26th, 2007, 05:38 PM
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But doesn't a pilot still have to know enough to talk to a tower? I would think he'd have to had enough English training to know that word order (with or without changes in intonation) is important? Especially when the tower says, "that is a question"?
Sep 26th, 2007, 05:54 PM
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HKP - Depends on who you're asking.
If you ask many professional airline pilots, they'll say no. In fact, after listening to that tape, they'll fault the JFK tower for using non-aviation English.
But if you ask me as a passenger, will I fly an airline into a busy international airport by a pilot that knows zero basic English? My answer is no.
If you ask many professional airline pilots, they'll say no. In fact, after listening to that tape, they'll fault the JFK tower for using non-aviation English.
But if you ask me as a passenger, will I fly an airline into a busy international airport by a pilot that knows zero basic English? My answer is no.
Sep 27th, 2007, 08:23 AM
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Isn't "make the right turn at Juliet, join Alpha, hold short of Mike-Alpha" very, very basic "aviation English"? Refers to position markers on runways/taxiways, not terribly complex, not even an issue of what's a question and what's an answer.
Sep 27th, 2007, 08:55 AM
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I can understand why 99% of the time basic aviation English is all that's needed. But what if there's an emergency situation on the plane and the pilot needs to describe what's going on so the ground can be ready to help? I hope they have more English training than just aviation English.
Sep 27th, 2007, 01:20 PM
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The Chinese pilot was grossly incompetent. His inability to speak English put both his own flight and other aircraft at risk.
There's no such thing as "aviation English." You cannot learn just one little chunk of a language—you have to learn all of it. International pilots are required to be competent in English, not just with a handful of words often used for air traffic control, but with a much wider vocabulary sufficient to allow them to deal with unusual situations in the air. This pilot could not even come close to meeting this requirement.
It's a sorry day when political correctness is allowed to take priority over the safety of human lives. This pilot should be fired, or at least restricted to flights in his own country, where he will not be required to speak English.
There's no such thing as "aviation English." You cannot learn just one little chunk of a language—you have to learn all of it. International pilots are required to be competent in English, not just with a handful of words often used for air traffic control, but with a much wider vocabulary sufficient to allow them to deal with unusual situations in the air. This pilot could not even come close to meeting this requirement.
It's a sorry day when political correctness is allowed to take priority over the safety of human lives. This pilot should be fired, or at least restricted to flights in his own country, where he will not be required to speak English.
Sep 27th, 2007, 01:23 PM
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I think the reason why I see read so many pilots pointing fingers mostly at the JFK tower (and diverting attention) after this tape became public is that the profession is still a relatively "close" club that tends to protect their own against outside criticism.
Which is a very dangerous thing.
Which is a very dangerous thing.
Sep 27th, 2007, 01:28 PM
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Pilots are not the ones pointing fingers. They know better. They know that they could have been in an accident because of the Chinese pilot's incompetence.
The ones pointing fingers are the ones afflicted by political correctness, who are afraid to say anything negative about anyone who isn't American and English-speaking.
If it were up to me, that pilot would be sent home as a passenger, and the airline would have to provide another pilot sufficiently competent in English to follow instructions on the radio before the aircraft could leave again. I'd hate to see another Tenerife.
The ones pointing fingers are the ones afflicted by political correctness, who are afraid to say anything negative about anyone who isn't American and English-speaking.
If it were up to me, that pilot would be sent home as a passenger, and the airline would have to provide another pilot sufficiently competent in English to follow instructions on the radio before the aircraft could leave again. I'd hate to see another Tenerife.
Sep 27th, 2007, 05:17 PM
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My husband is a pilot and instructor. I had him listen to the tape and he puts the burden on the pilot, not the ground controller.
It takes a lot of experience to get up to speed to talk with ATC and ground controllers in any busy airspace or airport. The controller in the tape is talking at normal or even slow speed for them. The instructions tend to be fast, brief, then you are to repeat back to confirm. That's why he keeps repeating, getting more frustrated. He can tell the pilot does not understand, but can only keep trying to give him instructions and ask him questions. The controller is also communicating with numerous other pilots, trying to keep everyone moving at a safe distance, not crossing active runways where planes are landing and departing, etc.
The pilot's language skills are not sufficient to communicate at one of the busiest international airports. I've heard people from the US and other countries with strong accents on the radio and they can be difficult to understand, but that's about the worst I've heard. I've also heard pilots ask controllers to repeat as they may have local accents too. I've also heard controllers slow their speed and expand their instructions when it is obvious they are talking with an inexperienced pilot, but if they are smart they avoid the largest, busiest commercial airports.
It takes a lot of experience to get up to speed to talk with ATC and ground controllers in any busy airspace or airport. The controller in the tape is talking at normal or even slow speed for them. The instructions tend to be fast, brief, then you are to repeat back to confirm. That's why he keeps repeating, getting more frustrated. He can tell the pilot does not understand, but can only keep trying to give him instructions and ask him questions. The controller is also communicating with numerous other pilots, trying to keep everyone moving at a safe distance, not crossing active runways where planes are landing and departing, etc.
The pilot's language skills are not sufficient to communicate at one of the busiest international airports. I've heard people from the US and other countries with strong accents on the radio and they can be difficult to understand, but that's about the worst I've heard. I've also heard pilots ask controllers to repeat as they may have local accents too. I've also heard controllers slow their speed and expand their instructions when it is obvious they are talking with an inexperienced pilot, but if they are smart they avoid the largest, busiest commercial airports.
Sep 28th, 2007, 12:24 AM
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And I want to know just HOW anyone plans to know whether or not the pilot of their aircraft has "good English skills" prior to takeoff ("I wouldn't fly on an airline with pilots who..."
Sep 28th, 2007, 03:10 AM
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By forcing him to take a test of English, which is already routine in aviation for non-English-speaking pilots who must fly internationally. If the pilot passes the test, he can fly. If he doesn't, his flying will be limited to his home country, or he will be dismissed.
