rkkwan

Well, since I think we've exhausted cassandra's thread about MP3 under 10K feet, I'll start another thread about stupid rule - or in this case, a non-rule - in air travel these days.

Well, it's about taking one's shoes off at airport security checkpoints. Now, I don't believe there's any written law/directive/rule that says one must take off his/her "footwear". I certainly haven't seen any signs at the airport, and I have not read any written rule.

Instead, passengers are "advised" and "encouraged" by TSA officers to take off their shoes or boots at the checkpoint. So, what the heck is that? Can one disobey? And if one refuses to take off their shoes, then what? Full body searches afterwards (which I assume will mean taking off the shoes anyways).

Well, this past weekend, I for the first time decided to wear sandals (Teva sport sandals) on the plane instead of shoes/boots, and I had no problem with TSA officers in Houston IAH or Boise, ID (BOI) going through security with my sandals on. The TSA officer did "recommend" the guy in front of me at BOI to take off his shoes.

And, BTW, what was the threat about shoes to start with? I can't remember if this "non-rule" started after 9/11, or the shoe-bomber. But don't you think one can put as much explosives to do some harm in the soles of sandals as in shoes?

Another consideration is safety of passengers in emergencies. Hey, I know from now on I will <b>always</b> wear sandals to get on a plane instead of shoes. But with various crashes we know they are not as safe. [For example, Air France in Toronto, Singapore in Taipei.] In fact, Singapore Airlines changed the footwear of their &quot;Singapore Girls&quot; from flip-flops after their Taipei crash to give them more protection. But these days, I see lots of people flying in sandals and flip-flops. No wonder...

jbee

I was told once shoes that contain metal must be removed. Shoes that have no metal (sandals, flip flops, etc) do not have to be removed. That includes shoes that have nails, etc. that you can't see. Again, what does that have to do with shoe bombing??

I don't remember ever needing to remove my shoes until after the shoe bomber, actually. One flight, I had to remove them going through security then again right before getting on the plane (checked by the airline's gate attendants). What a pain...

I'm considering slippers for my next flight with real shoes in my carry on. I really hate walking barefoot or in my socks across that dirty carpet.

GoAway

My understanding also is that you aren't required to, but if you don't remove them when 'suggested' or 'strongly recommended', you will get put through the more stringent security check.

Sandals don't guarantee anything. I have been a trip where going through one airport I was not asked to remove my sandals. On the return flight I also kept them on through security. This time, however, 'Step over here, miss'... and then I was required to remove those same sandals. The TSA agent sent them through the machine (while I sat on a chair keeping my feet off the ground). Then, the TSA agent wanded the bottom of my bare feet.

Even though there are actual rules and regulations about what the TSA can or cannot do, there apparently is a lot of individual interpretation of those rules by the agents themselves.

Incognito

'there apparently is a lot of individual interpretation of those rules by the agents themselves.&gt; Amen!

mali22

I was told that if the shoes have heels over 1 inch then they should be removed.

However, I've also been asked to remove sneakers at certain airports (SMF) when the same shoes at others (LAX) are allowed through.

gail

We flew 4 flights on UA mid-August (Boston, Denver, Jackson Hole). Went thru security at each airport, even stop-over in Denver because of long lay-over. 4 adults, one 15 year old. Frequent traveler husband automatically took off his shoes at security. None of the rest of us did. About 1/2 people in line took of their shoes. I was wearing sandals, 15 year old was wearing sneakers as was other adult.

We were not asked to remove our shoes. Nor did we see any other shoed passenger be asked to remove their shoes.

gail

And FYI - we also found out from Jackson Hole police department and local TSA personnel that there is no law requiring passengers to show ID. It is up to airlines to determine to their satisfaction that passenger is who is printed on ticket - but there is no law (we discovered this when son lost his ID)

rkkwan

gail - At basically every US airport I've gone through security recently, the person who checks ID is at the entrance to &quot;the line&quot;, and these are hired by the airline(s) and are not TSA officials. Only the actual screeners are TSA, and they don't need to see one's ID.

That's also how airlines can set up priority lines for its &quot;elite&quot; and first/business passengers. They run the lines and can send whoever to whichever line at the actual checkpoints. TSA simply clears whoever come to the checkpoints.

jbee

GoAway -
Did they find anything inside your bare feet?

gail

As far as ID - we were told when one checks in at counter with airline (not TSA) that there is no law requiring an ID be shown - but every airline requires it.

AAFrequentFlyer

<b>gail</b>,

you were told wtong. It's not a requirement to have an ID to fly. It certainly makes it easier on evertybody, but by not having an ID will not preclude you from flying.

Cassandra

;-) so should I make sure I have my shoes in the off position under 10,000 feet?

I wear slip-ons with socks/kneehighs in the winter and barefoot in the summer -- easy to get them on and off, but I'm never completely happy about padding along the conveyor belt in stocking/bare feet. They are not, btw, backless but either a form of loafer or maryjane with straps on them -- certainly more secure than those terribly loose flipflops and mules that everyone's wearing.

Yes, that new rule arose after the shoe bomber, and although it's not as nutty as the 10K foot electronic device rule -- I can imagine packing all kinds of stuff in wedge heels or those stacked, &quot;airfilled&quot; cross-trainers -- it's still a bit picayune compared to all the other possibilities for sneaking things through.

Perhaps there's some aspect of profiling involving dirty feet or bad pedicures we don't know about?

wally34949

But it makes &quot;other&quot; people feel that flying is safer. Like all of those babies that are not allowed to fly because they share the same name as a suspected terrorist. Yes, our government hard at work.

SamH

I was eyeballing that xray thing at the airport the other day. I think if I position my arms just right I could go right through.

Gardyloo

Yesterday morning at BOS I told the TSA person that my shoes were okay - having just finished around 20 flights in the past month or two overseas where shoe carnivals are unknown - and never having set off the beeper - and was told, &quot;Fine, then we'll put you through supplemental security.&quot;

IMO that is an abuse of power and worthy of sending off an angry note to TSA over. Either it's a rule or it's not, but it shouldn't be grounds for blackmail at a busy airport in the morning. BTW, SEA and BOS are notorious shoe carnival sites. They don't require it at other places with arguably more to be worried about, like JFK or LHR or TLV.

clevelandbrown

Gardyloo, are you really serious? If TSA can rely on our assertions that our shoes are OK, why not just ask us if we have any proscribed items and skip the actual screening?

TSA is, understandably, pretty quiet about what their policies and procedures are. If they become common knowledge, any potential hijacker would then know how to circumvent them.

My understanding is that the great shoe debate started after the shoe-bomber was caught. Before it started, however, I had been advised by TSA personnel to remove any shoes that have metal in them (some have a substantial shank in the sole) to avoid setting off the alarm and requiring a wanding. After the shoe bomber, however, rumor is that TSA decided they wanted to scan any shoes with thick soles, and I hear frequent references to a one-inch rule. But were I a TSA manager, I'm not confident that my people could accurately eye-ball one inch, and I don't think I would want them measuring heels, thus revealing the parameters they are using, so I would be inclined to have my people err on the side of caution, which probably means everyone would remove their shoes (I think it would cause a lot more disgruntlement if some passengers had to remove their shoes, while some didn't).

But my experience is that the shoe-removal policy is sometimes and someplaces not fully enforced, and I would attribute that to the vagaries of any human endeavor; people are not machines, and we make mistakes.

One rule that I am certain is consistently enforced is that if the TSA screener asks you to remove your shoes and you refuse, you will be subjected to a heightened personal screening, even if you don't set off the monitor; and if you complain and ask to speak to a supervisor, you will receive a form you can use to file a complaint, after you have been subjected to the heightened personal screening at the behest of the supervisor.

Lets be realistic. TSA has no plane to catch; you do, so they are holding all the aces.

Incidentally, I would be perfectly happy to see TSA shut down. 9/11 was a catastrophe because terrorist were able to comandeer planes and use them to murder thousands of people. However, now we are aware of that possibility, and the cockpits are secure (not as secure as they should be, certainly), so the most a terrorist could do would be to blow up a plane, killing at most a few hundred. I would be willing to take that chance, if we were freed from the massive delays and inconveniences attendant to TSA screening.

rkkwan

TSA and Homeland Security are both kneejerk reactions to 9/11. They serve no purpose other than adding another level of federal bureaucracy. No hard to see during Katrina.

rkkwan

BTW, I don't think anybody will object to everybody taking off their shoes, or even just the rule that &quot;if TSA tells you to take off shoes, you take off your shoes, no questions asked&quot;. I can live with both.

But these &quot;advice&quot;, &quot;recommendation&quot;, &quot;suggestion&quot; and &quot;encouragement&quot; of taking off shoes are just ridiculous.

Gardyloo

Clevelandbrown, the fact was that several people in front of me went through with shoes on and got no hassles. My complaint is that the agent made it plain that I would be given the SSSS treatment simply for disagreeing with her &quot;suggestion.&quot;

A rule is a rule; make it consistent or make it go away. Using threats of harrassment (and I don't doubt that once the system has you pegged as uncooperative you'll get the 4S treatment every time hence) is lousy policy and undermines the respect the public is likely to give this important service. In MHO.

clevelandbrown

Gardyloo, for someone who admittedly doesn't know exactly what the rule is, you seem strangely confident that it was not enforced. Perhaps the people in front of you were employees or crew members, and the rule may differ for them; perhaps the rule is that every fifth person will have to remove their shoes; perhaps the rule is that people of a certain age have to remove their shoes. We simply don't know, and I hate getting caught in line behind some sea-lawyer who decides to debate the issue with the screener. I'm not implying that you are old or a sea-lawyer, I'm just saying that without knowing what the rules are, you have little reason to conclude that they have been broken.

As to a &quot;suggestion&quot; that you remove your shoes being a request, perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of courtesy. That a screener suggests you remove your shoes, or move to a certain counter, rarely means do it if you feel like it. I was raised to be polite. and when I went into the service I told one of my sergeants to do this, please. He didn't recognize that as an order, apparently, and didn't comply until we went through an adjustment. Personally, I would rather have the scanner be polite, than bark at me to take your damn shoes off.