To Feed or not to Feed (Leopards) ?
Nov 2nd, 2006 | 07:46 PM
#2
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Aby,
I didnt get your question? What do you mean by feed.....bait a leopard and hope to get a visual?
If that's what you mean.....i'm not into visiting areas like that, which takes the natural element out of the whole experience, just to create a "zoo-like" atmosphere. When i go on safari, i go with the understanding that animals and their movements are unpredictable and that is part of the experience. That's what makes every day different and every visit different, and part of why i return year after year.......
Hari
I didnt get your question? What do you mean by feed.....bait a leopard and hope to get a visual?
If that's what you mean.....i'm not into visiting areas like that, which takes the natural element out of the whole experience, just to create a "zoo-like" atmosphere. When i go on safari, i go with the understanding that animals and their movements are unpredictable and that is part of the experience. That's what makes every day different and every visit different, and part of why i return year after year.......
Hari
Nov 2nd, 2006 | 09:53 PM
#5
Joined: Oct 2005
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There's lots off issues and not sure how I feel. To me it's not cut and dryed.
1. Giving poeple a chance to see this magnificent animal MAY help people get an appreciation and help the cause of conservation.
2. It is a tourist attraction. It brings people in... and important for local economy. Therefore will this give them extra protection against poaching? Don't know.
3. As said before it's not natural behaviour... but as long as it's limited is this a problem.
4. They get used to people. This could be a really bad side effect. Leopards need to be scared of people.
I've been to 2 places where they baited and as a "tourist" enjoyed the experience.
1. Giving poeple a chance to see this magnificent animal MAY help people get an appreciation and help the cause of conservation.
2. It is a tourist attraction. It brings people in... and important for local economy. Therefore will this give them extra protection against poaching? Don't know.
3. As said before it's not natural behaviour... but as long as it's limited is this a problem.
4. They get used to people. This could be a really bad side effect. Leopards need to be scared of people.
I've been to 2 places where they baited and as a "tourist" enjoyed the experience.
Nov 3rd, 2006 | 03:12 AM
#6
Joined: May 2006
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Hot in Maun 40+ Hari
Rain also fell over the Moremi and Okavango delta area, and it is hoped that vegetation for wild life will now improve. The Thamalakane River continues to flow, and some people say that this is the first time in many years that they have seen the river flow so late in October for a long time.
Rain also fell over the Moremi and Okavango delta area, and it is hoped that vegetation for wild life will now improve. The Thamalakane River continues to flow, and some people say that this is the first time in many years that they have seen the river flow so late in October for a long time.
Nov 3rd, 2006 | 03:53 AM
#7
Joined: Dec 2005
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Hi aby,
To me, there is absolutely no justification for feeding leopards just for the benefit of tourists. I would think that it is not the people who would pay to see this, who would be poaching in the first place. I would not enjoy this at all, it almost seems like a circus thing!
Kind regards,
Kaye
To me, there is absolutely no justification for feeding leopards just for the benefit of tourists. I would think that it is not the people who would pay to see this, who would be poaching in the first place. I would not enjoy this at all, it almost seems like a circus thing!
Kind regards,
Kaye
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Nov 3rd, 2006 | 04:25 AM
#8
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Kaye, i fully agree.....i would like to know what camps/lodges bait the leopards and i will ensure i never visit them.....
Bots, thanks for the info....hopefully after all the long and late rains from last year, this year we return to a normal rainfall pattern.
Hari
Bots, thanks for the info....hopefully after all the long and late rains from last year, this year we return to a normal rainfall pattern.
Hari
Nov 3rd, 2006 | 04:31 AM
#9
Joined: Sep 2006
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Interesting to note that back in the 1970's (I am not sure when this practice began or ended) Mala Mala baited for lions and set up a large hide with guests sitting and drinking wine. The first 2 nights I sat and drank what was $2.00/bottle red wine until I didn't care if I saw a lion or not and was "fortunate" to see two lions on the third night. Sightings in the 70's were not as regular as they are today so it was felt justified to pander to guests' desire to see predators do what they do. Today good tracking and a little luck go a long way to satisfy our desire to see the ultimate cats. One of the most exciting aspects of any safari is the unknown.
Nov 3rd, 2006 | 05:05 AM
#10
Joined: Apr 2004
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I think feeding wild animals to lure them for tourist viewing is folly.
Just look a the history of bear managment in Yellowstone Park in the U.S. where bears were in essence baited by allowing open garbage pits that became bear feeding pits.
In the 1950's you could visit Yellowstone and see 20, or even 30, bears right beside the roads! Bears and humans had grown accustomed to seeing each other, each did not seem to adequately respect and fear the other. As a result, every year bears injured about 50 people; and in turn, park officials killed approximately 24 bears each year.
In the 60's the practice of open garbabe pits was discontinued, but the bears were still dependent on the free food and problems continued. It was not unitil the 1980s, when most of the garbage-dependent bears had disappeared from bear populations in Yellowstone National Park, and new generations of self-sufficient bears had emerged did the conflicts diminish.
Just look a the history of bear managment in Yellowstone Park in the U.S. where bears were in essence baited by allowing open garbage pits that became bear feeding pits.
In the 1950's you could visit Yellowstone and see 20, or even 30, bears right beside the roads! Bears and humans had grown accustomed to seeing each other, each did not seem to adequately respect and fear the other. As a result, every year bears injured about 50 people; and in turn, park officials killed approximately 24 bears each year.
In the 60's the practice of open garbabe pits was discontinued, but the bears were still dependent on the free food and problems continued. It was not unitil the 1980s, when most of the garbage-dependent bears had disappeared from bear populations in Yellowstone National Park, and new generations of self-sufficient bears had emerged did the conflicts diminish.
Nov 3rd, 2006 | 05:44 AM
#11
Joined: Jun 2006
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Hari, I mentioned this in passing in a thread about an itinerary including Samburu ... I asked which lodges baited leopards since I wanted to avoid those, personally feeling it's a bit unethical.
Maybe not a big deal in Africa with leopards, but where I live we have problems with people feeding bears. Eventually the bears associate people with getting fed and get too aggressive as they graduate from accepting food to demanding food. The Rangers might as well put up signs ... "You feed them and we'll have to kill them". Many times people are injured or killed before the bears are shot.
As for leopards, last fall a young (7 years old?) French boy was killed by one at a Tarangire lodge while walking from his room to the dining hall. Many said this lodge was baiting leopards and this was one of the ones coming to the baits ... the lodge owners denied baiting but many saw it (this was in the Arusha papers). The offending leopard was shot and killed.
I seem to recall someone on this forum staying at the same lodge this past spring and writing that they actually shot 3 or 4 leopards since they didn't know which one did the killing. So if this was really due to baiting it didn't work out too well for the leopards or the tourists.
There are places near Seronera where you can see wild leopards fairly regularly (I think we saw 8 in a few days last year for example), so baiting them is not necessary in my opinion.
Bill
Maybe not a big deal in Africa with leopards, but where I live we have problems with people feeding bears. Eventually the bears associate people with getting fed and get too aggressive as they graduate from accepting food to demanding food. The Rangers might as well put up signs ... "You feed them and we'll have to kill them". Many times people are injured or killed before the bears are shot.
As for leopards, last fall a young (7 years old?) French boy was killed by one at a Tarangire lodge while walking from his room to the dining hall. Many said this lodge was baiting leopards and this was one of the ones coming to the baits ... the lodge owners denied baiting but many saw it (this was in the Arusha papers). The offending leopard was shot and killed.
I seem to recall someone on this forum staying at the same lodge this past spring and writing that they actually shot 3 or 4 leopards since they didn't know which one did the killing. So if this was really due to baiting it didn't work out too well for the leopards or the tourists.
There are places near Seronera where you can see wild leopards fairly regularly (I think we saw 8 in a few days last year for example), so baiting them is not necessary in my opinion.
Bill
Nov 3rd, 2006 | 07:15 AM
#12
Joined: May 2004
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Baiting for tourism is absolutely a terrible practice that's time passed a good 30 to 40 years ago in most places. It should be illegal, the national wildlife departments should have rules against this activity and collect large fines for substantiated reports of it.
Bill/Green Drake have illustrated the problem well with bears in the U.S. In fact there is an official slogan, a "fed bear is a dead bear". That leopard incident from Tarangire speaks directly to the baiting leopard question. The negligent activity of baiting raised the comfort level of leopards with people and associated easy food with the camp. Result dead tourist (a child no less) and at least one if not more dead leopards. That is the easy and obvious rationale to be against baiting. Putting guests in added danger as well as setting up animals for destruction is unacceptable to me.
There are also much more complicated issues such as creating artificially high population densities of the baited species that can than impact other species in the area. Over time individuals may lose some of their hunting skill or young raised on scavenging may never properly develop hunting ability. Then if the source disappears they are in trouble which also increases the chance for attacks on people.
It also makes the animals more susceptible to hunters using baiting or neighboring people putting out poisoned carcasses.
For a research study I have baited predators to track stations or remote cameras. Even in this case I only run the stations once a month to avoid habituation and minimize wasted energy for the animals. I also only used scent, no actual food.
Bottom line is the practice of baiting for tourism is archaic, goes against modern wildlife managment principles, and is very unethical. I would not knowingly book at any lodge conducting this practice.
Bill/Green Drake have illustrated the problem well with bears in the U.S. In fact there is an official slogan, a "fed bear is a dead bear". That leopard incident from Tarangire speaks directly to the baiting leopard question. The negligent activity of baiting raised the comfort level of leopards with people and associated easy food with the camp. Result dead tourist (a child no less) and at least one if not more dead leopards. That is the easy and obvious rationale to be against baiting. Putting guests in added danger as well as setting up animals for destruction is unacceptable to me.
There are also much more complicated issues such as creating artificially high population densities of the baited species that can than impact other species in the area. Over time individuals may lose some of their hunting skill or young raised on scavenging may never properly develop hunting ability. Then if the source disappears they are in trouble which also increases the chance for attacks on people.
It also makes the animals more susceptible to hunters using baiting or neighboring people putting out poisoned carcasses.
For a research study I have baited predators to track stations or remote cameras. Even in this case I only run the stations once a month to avoid habituation and minimize wasted energy for the animals. I also only used scent, no actual food.
Bottom line is the practice of baiting for tourism is archaic, goes against modern wildlife managment principles, and is very unethical. I would not knowingly book at any lodge conducting this practice.
Nov 3rd, 2006 | 09:46 AM
#14
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 788
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Maybe I missed it, but does anyone know which lodges in Samburu actually do bait for leopards?
We saw this happening at a lodge near Corbett National Park in India last winter, and it really bothered me. (I was so glad that no leopard showed up that night!) I agree with the above posts and think it's a terrible idea for leopards and people both.
We saw this happening at a lodge near Corbett National Park in India last winter, and it really bothered me. (I was so glad that no leopard showed up that night!) I agree with the above posts and think it's a terrible idea for leopards and people both.
Nov 3rd, 2006 | 09:53 AM
#15
Joined: Jun 2006
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I just read aby's post on Bill's other thread, which gives some information about who baits for leopards in Samburu:
"Leopard bait
both Samburu Lodge & Serena bait leopards (in case they haven't stopped just recently). Intrepids does not. Sopa - i don't know (wouldn't be surprised if they do though ...)"
I was relieved to see this, since we'll be staying at Intrepids next year.
"Leopard bait
both Samburu Lodge & Serena bait leopards (in case they haven't stopped just recently). Intrepids does not. Sopa - i don't know (wouldn't be surprised if they do though ...)"
I was relieved to see this, since we'll be staying at Intrepids next year.
Nov 3rd, 2006 | 09:58 AM
#16
Joined: Jan 2003
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MyDogKyle,
There was a reply from Jan on this thread http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34868895 and one from aby on this thread http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34892809
I asked the question in another thread but can't remember where now. IIRC, the reply was that both Serena and Samburu Game Lodge have baited in the past, but the poster wasn't sure if they're still doing it. I'll keep looking to see if I can find that response.
There was a reply from Jan on this thread http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34868895 and one from aby on this thread http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34892809
I asked the question in another thread but can't remember where now. IIRC, the reply was that both Serena and Samburu Game Lodge have baited in the past, but the poster wasn't sure if they're still doing it. I'll keep looking to see if I can find that response.
Nov 3rd, 2006 | 12:22 PM
#18
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Joined: Jan 2006
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MyDogKyle & Patty
I took into account they may have recently stopped this practice, but here's a quote about Serena
<i><b>The Lodge also places leopard bait on the opposite side of the river in the evening to attract the leopards </b></i> Sep 28, 2006 Bruce596, Hythe, Kent UK at TripAdvisor http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserR...l_Reserve.html
also i've seen on some web sites a "title" of 'National Park' attached to Samburu. IMO it's a mistake...
Had it been "converted" to NP status,
i guess baiting would be banned
aby
I took into account they may have recently stopped this practice, but here's a quote about Serena
<i><b>The Lodge also places leopard bait on the opposite side of the river in the evening to attract the leopards </b></i> Sep 28, 2006 Bruce596, Hythe, Kent UK at TripAdvisor http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserR...l_Reserve.html
also i've seen on some web sites a "title" of 'National Park' attached to Samburu. IMO it's a mistake...
Had it been "converted" to NP status,
i guess baiting would be banned
aby
