Grow up! and cut this nonsense out - this is a travel and opinion forum, not a place for name calling.

Has anyone else noticed that there has been a lot of anger lately on this forum? It seemed to have quieted down after all the travel agent issues died out, but has come back.

There are noisy and obnoxious American tourists, it's absurd to claim otherwise. And, yes there are noisy and obnoxius tourists from other countries as well. There are just more of us (American tourists), in most cases, so we do get painted with that broad brush.

Exacly, and the point I made in my post, above. This is a travel forum and should be restricted to information concerning travel to and about a particular destination, no more and no less.
Regards-Chuck

Thank you for your attempt at restoring sanity. Let's hope it works. What are your views on my report do you find it dissheartening that a lot of places are being "upgraded" and priced out of the reach of many?

actually, I am mentally composing another post that completely echoes this post and a few others - we have had to drop our planned trip because for the 5 of us, in the high season it was going to come in around $60 - 70K. Which is completely ridiculous!!! When you think that, among other things, we could have written a check to any number of NGO's, local businesses, charities, whatever, and done a lot of good. And, before anyone starts to say, but this is the trip of a lifetime... yes, yes, I know but I cannot just willy nilly spend the money with no regard for what I feel are greater consequences.

So, to answer you, yes it is more than disheartening and they won't be getting my $. But, luckily wonderful PredatorB posted a great idea with his independents tour. I cannot imagine how the greater and greater economic (and yes, racial) disparity could lead to better vacation experiences, and that disparity can only lead in the long run to environmental and social problems - poaching, petty crime, you name it.

So, we are possibly off again, maybe in December when we can afford it. Let me apologize publicly to Vanessa at EofA who did a LOT of hard work for our group, and then we had to cancel due to the financial aspect (and scheduling, but that's another story...)

On a previous thread, someone mentioned arriving in Maun and dealing direct with the WS / Kwando etc offices there and taking what was available and presumably a pretty good discount to rack. This approach would have the added benefit of requiring at least a night in Maun which would make the authors of the report referenced by Nyama much happier. Of course, you wouldn't get your first choice of camps, but you'd probably get a pretty cool trip for much less money.

Momliz: thanks for your very complimentary descriptive, it is nice to be appreciated!

Just to add a comment on the rates, I did the math yesterday and using the 5 Rivers special in 2008 people can save about 68% off of the Kwando high season rate, similarly, using the Kalahari Summer special Mapula camp can be had for 55% off of their high season rate which is considerably less than Kwando to start with. As with all of Africa its still a lot of money but these fly-in green season safaris can be done for about (or less) $3,000 pp for 10 nights. I have made two trips to Botswana in the green season, January and March and had wonderful sightings and terrific experiences both times. I'm sure the high season is even better but I haven't been able to afford it to find out and the value of going in the green season is staggering with the discounts so I'm happy to go that route.

I think the showing up in Maun is a great idea for those that have the flexability and sense of adventure to roll with it.

I can certainly endorse Bills comments on lower prices being available if you know who to ask. Last year my agent in SA got me Leballa and Lagoon at $295 ppn. I think that this was through 5 Rivers. We are currently awaiting prices for a trip in early March 2008, hopefully they may be as good!

I am just wondering why so few people on this board take into consideration a mobile camping safari, which is much more affordable than staying in the high-end camps.

The wildlife viewing in some of these areas can be as good (or even better) than in some of the private concessions.

It's true that off-road driving or night drives are not
allowed in the National Parks (but I find this (off-road) mainly a problem for serious photographers). Anyway, I will be doing one next year and I hope to prove by my pictures that this is definitely an option to take into consideration if being out there with the animals is your main priority.

I forgot to say the following:

to my own experience it's an urban myth that the high-end camps are always fully booked.

So if a specific camp is not that important to you, arriving at Maun at last minute is definitely an option like Matt (and Shumba: the new Selinda rates) mentioned.

Is something missing here?

There is another thread that discusses the inability to edit posts after the fact, in order to prevent an altering of context for responses to said posts.

Am I blind, or is sniktawk's post in which he paints Americans with a broad brush now missing from this thread above?

What's that all about?

That post by sniktawk does seem to be missing. (Am I wrong?) We need an explanation as to why it has been deleted.
regards - tom

Hi Johan,

I wish to go on a mobile safari one of these years...not as an alternate to my favourite camps, but, to explore new parts of Botswana that i have not been to in the past like Nxai pan, CKGR etc etc.,

Rgds,
Hari

Rick,

The problem is, the moderators of this board do not read all the threads....so, the moment someone complains they pull out a controversial post!

The law of averages works out....some posts warrant withdrawal, some others need to be kept on.....in the end, the fodors people withdraw all posts that people complain about....

At the end of the day....fodors is a very controversial forum!

I wish the editors would put a message saying they've pulled a post. Otherwise many of the following posts don't make sense.

Often I think they delete a post at the request of the poster, as well as from receiving a complaint.

Hari--you're right that Fodor's can become quite controversial at times.

CW

IMO, better that the entire thread be deleted than to delete a single post that then leaves many subsequent posts without context and seemingly nonsensical...

rickmck and tom,
The offensive post is missing. Without it the answers mean nothing and the really obnoxious nature is lost. It would seem to me that sniktawk should be either banned or suspended for making a such a comment to begin with. I fear the moderator has made a mistake by deleting the very post that caused widespread and strong reactions. I too cringe at loud obnoxious travelers, whether American, British, French, German, or any nationality. I have had the unfortuante experience of suffering them all at one time or another. Nevertheless I don't hold them as representaive of their nationalities. I think Sniktawk owes an apology to the Fodorites who obey the common rules of civility while exchanging travel information. This is not the place to air political or other non travel issues. Lets stick to what we all love, our own countries and Africa and above all keep it civil.
Regards-Chuck

The censorshiip of certain parts of this thread do make some of the remaining messages seem odd. I had no idea that there were rules regarding what you could say I thought it was for a frank exchange of opinions and views. I will limit myself to reporting on my visits and assisting people with requests for general information in the future.
I still think as I and many others do that it is a shame that certain parts of Botswana are being changed to suit a different requirement for a different type of holidaymaker.

I'm still interested in all opinions even if they include the typical cliches about my country.

Either Fodors should state that a reply was deleted (and why it was would be nice to know). Or just delete the whole thread.

sniktawk quote - "I still think as I and many others do that it is a shame that certain parts of Botswana are being changed to suit a different requirement for a different type of holidaymaker." Sniktawk - You are wrong again. Don't you get the clue? Just drop it. Give it up. Forget about it.

regards - tom

Fact is that luxury and high-price tourism is part of Botswana's official "high value low volume" tourism strategy.