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Sep 1st, 2006, 12:33 AM
#21
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Lynda, just name the date and I'm there 
!!
I have one question though (what a surprise... a question from ME !!
) - On the website it says:
<font color="blue">Q: So why don’t you only use cubs from Stage 2 and not have the Lion Encounter or Walk With Lions?
A: The controlled breeding and research enclosures at Antelope Park enable a variety of tests and research observations to be carried out. It is here that the lions are DNA tested and assessed in terms of their various characteristics. Eg. Are they good hunters? Are they dominant, aggressive, independent and a host of other points that help us select what we believe will be the best lions for the rehabilitation programme.
<font color="black">
My question is, what happens to the lions that don't make stage 2?? Anyone know?
Imelda</font></font>
!!I have one question though (what a surprise... a question from ME !!
) - On the website it says:<font color="blue">Q: So why don’t you only use cubs from Stage 2 and not have the Lion Encounter or Walk With Lions?
A: The controlled breeding and research enclosures at Antelope Park enable a variety of tests and research observations to be carried out. It is here that the lions are DNA tested and assessed in terms of their various characteristics. Eg. Are they good hunters? Are they dominant, aggressive, independent and a host of other points that help us select what we believe will be the best lions for the rehabilitation programme.
<font color="black">
My question is, what happens to the lions that don't make stage 2?? Anyone know?
Imelda</font></font>
Sep 1st, 2006, 08:50 AM
#22
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None of the lions you walk with will ever be reintroduced to the wild, having been habituated to people they are captive for life. The ones that make Phase II become breeders in a large controlled habitat where prey is stocked for them to make kills. Their cubs will then be the ones that are reintroduced although I find it strange that they do not name any locations where reintroductions have taken place or when any will, they simply state there are lots of requests. I would expect them to trumpet successes when they occur.
Imelda: that is a great question about what happens to the Phase I lions that don't make it to the breeding pool (Phase II). I have sent an email to ask them that question as well as what reintroductions have taken place or are scheduled to take place.
Imelda: that is a great question about what happens to the Phase I lions that don't make it to the breeding pool (Phase II). I have sent an email to ask them that question as well as what reintroductions have taken place or are scheduled to take place.
Sep 1st, 2006, 12:17 PM
#23
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I'm interested in what you hear from them about the disposition of the lions.
While I love to read about "friendly encounters" with wildlife, part of me is uneasy with the opportunities because the animals are not, nor should be, like my cat at home. (Though there are times when he isn't so domesticated!)
I do sympathize, however, with the needs of conservation groups to raise money for their projects.
Thanks,
CW
While I love to read about "friendly encounters" with wildlife, part of me is uneasy with the opportunities because the animals are not, nor should be, like my cat at home. (Though there are times when he isn't so domesticated!)
I do sympathize, however, with the needs of conservation groups to raise money for their projects.
Thanks,
CW
Sep 1st, 2006, 12:27 PM
#24
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Thanks PreditorBiologist. Although I would LOVE to do the Lion walk I definately would not want to support something that isn't completely 'good' for the wellbeing of ALL the lions!
One more thing that confuses me though, it says in the site :
<font color="blue">Q: What happens to the lions after they are too big for the Lion Encounter (Victoria Falls) or Walk with Lions (Antelope Park www.antelopepark.co.zw)?
A: We have probably been asked this question by every person who comes into contact with the lions. The answer to this question is contained in our mission statement and conservation programme. The lions that you are walking with go into a staged rehabilitation programme to reintroduce captive bred lions into the wild.
<font color="black">This seems to contradict what you said - I'm taking it that you are correct but what does that mean for the large Lions not suitable for either Stage 1 or Stage 2? Is there something they are not telling? I'm a bit suspicious!
Imelda
</font></font>
One more thing that confuses me though, it says in the site :
<font color="blue">Q: What happens to the lions after they are too big for the Lion Encounter (Victoria Falls) or Walk with Lions (Antelope Park www.antelopepark.co.zw)?
A: We have probably been asked this question by every person who comes into contact with the lions. The answer to this question is contained in our mission statement and conservation programme. The lions that you are walking with go into a staged rehabilitation programme to reintroduce captive bred lions into the wild.
<font color="black">This seems to contradict what you said - I'm taking it that you are correct but what does that mean for the large Lions not suitable for either Stage 1 or Stage 2? Is there something they are not telling? I'm a bit suspicious!
Imelda
</font></font>
Sep 1st, 2006, 01:26 PM
#25
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CW: I feel the same which is why I read their entire site and followed up with questions. I will post when I get a response although with the weekend there now it may be a few days.
Imelda: I found your highlighted question/answer interesting too. They certainly give a vague answer considering it is a question that "everyone" asks and as you point out it still doesn't explain what happens to those that outgrow Phase 1 but don't make the cut for Phase 2. They allude that the lions you walk with move into the reintroduction program but when you read the details it is evident that no lion you encounter will ever make Phase 3 (Reintroduction) because they are habituated to people. 'Technically' they do move into the reintroduction program as the breeding stock. Phase 2 is a controlled environment for breeding and their cubs can be reintroduced. It also indicates that the entire reason for the walk experience is to monitor and do tests to determine which lions should be Phase 2 breeders which leads me to believe that there are definitely lions that are not moved into phase 2.
I'm trying to keep an open mind and see what kind of answers I receive, it may just be poorly communicated but it adds up strange to me right now.
Imelda: I found your highlighted question/answer interesting too. They certainly give a vague answer considering it is a question that "everyone" asks and as you point out it still doesn't explain what happens to those that outgrow Phase 1 but don't make the cut for Phase 2. They allude that the lions you walk with move into the reintroduction program but when you read the details it is evident that no lion you encounter will ever make Phase 3 (Reintroduction) because they are habituated to people. 'Technically' they do move into the reintroduction program as the breeding stock. Phase 2 is a controlled environment for breeding and their cubs can be reintroduced. It also indicates that the entire reason for the walk experience is to monitor and do tests to determine which lions should be Phase 2 breeders which leads me to believe that there are definitely lions that are not moved into phase 2.
I'm trying to keep an open mind and see what kind of answers I receive, it may just be poorly communicated but it adds up strange to me right now.
Sep 1st, 2006, 01:39 PM
#27
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Well as I said in my first post - answers appear to questions I didn't know I had. And now new questions appear. That is what I like about this site. I too am very interested in knowing more.
Predator Biologist I look forward to hearing more from you on this. You seem to know the questions to ask.
Predator Biologist I look forward to hearing more from you on this. You seem to know the questions to ask.
Sep 1st, 2006, 06:39 PM
#30
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I will certainly post any info that I receive. The concept in theory is a good one and reintroductions are very complicated and expensive! I hope they can clarify some of the cloudy issues and I would be happy to endorse their efforts if it all makes sense.
Dennis: I know it is a very cool opportunity and it is not hard to understand why lots of people want to do it -- I'd love to as well. I think it is good to understand exactly what is going on and then everyone can make their own personal educated choice. I really hope it is a solid scientific endeavor so there is no real choice to even be made. Personally I'm really careful about these things but its kind of my job to be, I wouldn't hold it against anyone who wants to pay just to get to hug a lion but I'd really promote it if I believed it was good conservation.
I'd encourage everyone that does the expereince to ask questions and report back what you thought about it. On the ground knowledge is always better than what we will learn via email.
Dennis: I know it is a very cool opportunity and it is not hard to understand why lots of people want to do it -- I'd love to as well. I think it is good to understand exactly what is going on and then everyone can make their own personal educated choice. I really hope it is a solid scientific endeavor so there is no real choice to even be made. Personally I'm really careful about these things but its kind of my job to be, I wouldn't hold it against anyone who wants to pay just to get to hug a lion but I'd really promote it if I believed it was good conservation.
I'd encourage everyone that does the expereince to ask questions and report back what you thought about it. On the ground knowledge is always better than what we will learn via email.
Sep 1st, 2006, 06:56 PM
#31
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Pred~ I agree 100%. If it turns out that the lions are exploited or killed after not being accepted into phase 2 or 3, I'll cancel. Hopefully it's a good cause that benefits the lions and my money will help. If you or anyone hears otherwise, I'd be the first one to cancel and find something else to do. One question, nobody seems to object to the elephant encounter where you actually ride the elephants around the area (not a natural thing for elephants) but questions are raised on the lion encounter, how come?
Sep 1st, 2006, 07:19 PM
#32
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Dennis: good question about the elephants. To me the big difference is elephants live for a long time and thus a 'tourist or working' elephant will have a long career and they will not need to keep a large number of them. With the lions they need a new batch every year as they can only do the experience with young ones. Also, the elephants is what it is -- they are domesticated elephants providing an experience where as the lion encounter is selling it in the name of conservation which to me if true could make it a more valid activity than elephants but if it were 'hiding' behind conservation that would make me irate. I think the history of domesticated elephants, although not typically of the African variety, probably dulls peoples senses to it but I could see where people would object to it as well. I don't love the idea of it but I did ride one in Thailand and it was an interesting experience. In the end I think because it is a more common offering it gets questioned less.
Sep 2nd, 2006, 11:05 AM
#34
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Personally speaking Dennis, I wouldn't do an elephant ride for the reason you pointed out. I don't know enough about where the elephants come from etc for these rides but I would avoid doing it. Now if those elephants had been say, wild and then orphaned and this was the their owners way of supporting them (which I REALLY doubt would ever happen by the way) then I probably would do it but that's just me and my way of thinking.
Let's hope that the Lion Encounter IS a true Conservation Project!!!
Imelda
Let's hope that the Lion Encounter IS a true Conservation Project!!!
Imelda
Sep 2nd, 2006, 11:23 AM
#35
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There ARE lots of objections to elephant back safaris. There is an article about them in the August issue of Africa Geographic and Daphne Sheldrick is utterly opposed.
Here’s an article that I’ve found.
http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx...ght__national/
And here’s an investigation about elephants in captivity in South Africa that I have not yet read:
http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/dimages/cus...ica_Report.pdf
And welcome to Fodor’s VeeR
Here’s an article that I’ve found.
http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx...ght__national/
And here’s an investigation about elephants in captivity in South Africa that I have not yet read:
http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/dimages/cus...ica_Report.pdf
And welcome to Fodor’s VeeR
Sep 2nd, 2006, 01:37 PM
#36
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I see things on this a bit different than Predator, Imelda & Denis. First, I know I live in a rose-coloured world, but in my honest opinion-
I have read the website, and from what I read, the lions in Stage 1 (which are the young ones that have been brought up with trainers & tourists) are put into Stage 2 to breed. I interpret that the next stage is the selection stage - only those young pre-adult offspring (from Stage 2 lions) that have proven that they can maintain themselves will be put into Stage 3. But nowhere does that say that the originals from Stage 2, nor the 'not-so-good-at-hunting-in-the-wild' Stage 3 guys & gals have to leave the fenced-in area of Stage 2. I am probably the worst person ever to have a good grasp on areas, but the Stage 2 area (5000-10,000 acres)seems large to me. That's 15 sq miles, I believe, which is 1/10th the size of Amboseli, which in turn seemed pretty big to me. A lot of lions, young, old, useful, or just 'lion around' kind of lions could co-exist there. And what could be better for a lion than to have a pre-stocked 15 sq miles of available food in a natural habitat for only the price of a tiny bit of human contact?
So, basically, I see this as a very positive step towards re-stocking the numbers of lions in the wild. And, on their home page, I also think Dr. Pieter Kat says it all with:
<font color="blue">"... and recognise that any action is better than the currently looming extinction of an African icon if we do nothing.”<font color="black">
And, if that wasn't enough to pull you guys into my rose-coloured world, I will gladly send you a pair of my <font color="red">rose coloured glasses<font color="black"> and some teddy bears!
I don't see it as a negative at all.
</font></font></font></font>
I have read the website, and from what I read, the lions in Stage 1 (which are the young ones that have been brought up with trainers & tourists) are put into Stage 2 to breed. I interpret that the next stage is the selection stage - only those young pre-adult offspring (from Stage 2 lions) that have proven that they can maintain themselves will be put into Stage 3. But nowhere does that say that the originals from Stage 2, nor the 'not-so-good-at-hunting-in-the-wild' Stage 3 guys & gals have to leave the fenced-in area of Stage 2. I am probably the worst person ever to have a good grasp on areas, but the Stage 2 area (5000-10,000 acres)seems large to me. That's 15 sq miles, I believe, which is 1/10th the size of Amboseli, which in turn seemed pretty big to me. A lot of lions, young, old, useful, or just 'lion around' kind of lions could co-exist there. And what could be better for a lion than to have a pre-stocked 15 sq miles of available food in a natural habitat for only the price of a tiny bit of human contact?
So, basically, I see this as a very positive step towards re-stocking the numbers of lions in the wild. And, on their home page, I also think Dr. Pieter Kat says it all with:
<font color="blue">"... and recognise that any action is better than the currently looming extinction of an African icon if we do nothing.”<font color="black">
And, if that wasn't enough to pull you guys into my rose-coloured world, I will gladly send you a pair of my <font color="red">rose coloured glasses<font color="black"> and some teddy bears!
I don't see it as a negative at all.
</font></font></font></font>
Sep 2nd, 2006, 06:36 PM
#38
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Lynda - I too am hoping that this is a true conservation project. Everyone seems to have dug deeper than I have and I began to second guess myself. I look forward to hearing Dennis' first hand report and his impressions.
For awhile there I thought I should go back to lurking - but this is has been a great discussion and I appreciate all of the imput.
Now I'm going back to my margarita. With one more question - should I pack my own tequila for this trip or just succumb to the joys of amarula?
For awhile there I thought I should go back to lurking - but this is has been a great discussion and I appreciate all of the imput.
Now I'm going back to my margarita. With one more question - should I pack my own tequila for this trip or just succumb to the joys of amarula?
Sep 2nd, 2006, 07:52 PM
#39
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Vee~It would have been nice to have a margarita once in awhile in the camps, but had to make do with the gin and tonics, local beer and wine and rum and cokes. With Rocco's doing, I'm sure some of the lodges will be serving margaritas in the near future!
Don't go back to lurking! We like to hear from everyone, as you can tell everyone has their own opinion and only occasionally do tempers flare. I guess I will be the guinea pig for the lion walk and will report back when I return.
Don't go back to lurking! We like to hear from everyone, as you can tell everyone has their own opinion and only occasionally do tempers flare. I guess I will be the guinea pig for the lion walk and will report back when I return.
Sep 2nd, 2006, 09:30 PM
#40
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Now Denis, if you <b>staple</b> the report to your journal, you will have to bring a <b>stapler remover</b> just in case !!
When you are both there (VeeR and Denis), I bet you will find that the animals are VERY happy to be there! My mom always said it was uncanny & weird, but I really do seem to be able to 'read' animals. The cheetahs in Nairobi were VERY happy to be there - I could tell they were happy and contented. And I bet you guys will find that with the lions too! (or at least I'm hoping....)
We won't tell the lions you are the 'guinea pig', Denis, we wouldn't want them to think breakfast was ordered in that morning!
VeeR - I second the motion - don't go back to lurking!! We love to have fun and we have some great discussions on this board!
When you are both there (VeeR and Denis), I bet you will find that the animals are VERY happy to be there! My mom always said it was uncanny & weird, but I really do seem to be able to 'read' animals. The cheetahs in Nairobi were VERY happy to be there - I could tell they were happy and contented. And I bet you guys will find that with the lions too! (or at least I'm hoping....)
We won't tell the lions you are the 'guinea pig', Denis, we wouldn't want them to think breakfast was ordered in that morning!
VeeR - I second the motion - don't go back to lurking!! We love to have fun and we have some great discussions on this board!
