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Dec 28th, 2007, 12:40 AM
#41
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Tuckeg & Bill _H,
Are you serious. You're going to get snakes in tents whether there are mice in there or not.
I'm staggered by the number of people wanting a safari in a remote wilderness area but expect not to have a creature other than a human in their tent.
Geoff.
Are you serious. You're going to get snakes in tents whether there are mice in there or not.
I'm staggered by the number of people wanting a safari in a remote wilderness area but expect not to have a creature other than a human in their tent.
Geoff.
Dec 28th, 2007, 12:49 AM
#42
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Geoff,
Yes, I am serious. I clearly stated that snakes would still get in but that the lodge managers in Namibia try to minimize the number of mice because years of experience has shown them that the more mice, the more snakes. That's fact, not opinion.
Tuckeg
Yes, I am serious. I clearly stated that snakes would still get in but that the lodge managers in Namibia try to minimize the number of mice because years of experience has shown them that the more mice, the more snakes. That's fact, not opinion.
Tuckeg
Dec 28th, 2007, 01:07 AM
#43
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A further comment. This reminds me of a controversy a few years ago in the astronomy community. People buying telescopes were very dissapointed that what they saw in their telescopes did not in any way match the pictures of astronomical objects on the boxes. Now knowledgeable people knew these photos were taken by very large telescopes but the average person did not. How does this relate to mice in tents? Many people have very little experience with the outdoors and will not encounter mice in their own homes. They get the idea of going on a safari and send away for a brochure or visit a website. Do they see pictures showing any mice or other wildlife in the photos showing the interior of the accomodations? Is there any mention of them in the descriptions? If the companies properly prepared the guests for the experience, then Cutter would have a legimate complaint. However the advertizing paints a very different picture and it is understandable some guests get upset.
Just to be clear, I've enjoy sharing space with all kinds of wildlife, the one exception being a hand-sized spider who was suprisingly quick. Luckily I was able to convince him/her to leave.
Just to be clear, I've enjoy sharing space with all kinds of wildlife, the one exception being a hand-sized spider who was suprisingly quick. Luckily I was able to convince him/her to leave.
Dec 28th, 2007, 01:08 AM
#44
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Tuckeg
Then something I have had to learn as a 'good manager' is to not take things too seriously, control my temp etc. etc. and it is sometimes very difficult. In fact I have considered leaving the industry in the next couple of years and unfortunately this will happen because of the way things are going. You will know for yourself the turnover of managers at lodges then if you know so many. There are reasons for this. Being fake and totally supressing emotion is part of this job. There is a way you are around guests and that is why I have let out a bit on this forum. I have enjoyed it and would actually love to say more but naturally hold back. Don't tell me that every single manager you have ever known has then not had some downtime with you and complained about this and that. You are so one tracked. Sure you are not one of these robot managers that looks straight through someone when they say hello? I would guess that many of the people that have written on this forum have lasting friendships with human managers. I probably know many of the managers you know, may even know you.
Check out http://bumperdumper.com/bumper2.htm.
Things like this help keep me laughing. Maybe another thing certain guests should be aware of. Often in remote areas you have to 'check the tyre pressure' once in awile. Unfortunately nobody told Mr so & so that there are no public toilets out in bush. "But Why?" Do you even realise how many people cannot come to grips with even this, never mind a mouse!
Then something I have had to learn as a 'good manager' is to not take things too seriously, control my temp etc. etc. and it is sometimes very difficult. In fact I have considered leaving the industry in the next couple of years and unfortunately this will happen because of the way things are going. You will know for yourself the turnover of managers at lodges then if you know so many. There are reasons for this. Being fake and totally supressing emotion is part of this job. There is a way you are around guests and that is why I have let out a bit on this forum. I have enjoyed it and would actually love to say more but naturally hold back. Don't tell me that every single manager you have ever known has then not had some downtime with you and complained about this and that. You are so one tracked. Sure you are not one of these robot managers that looks straight through someone when they say hello? I would guess that many of the people that have written on this forum have lasting friendships with human managers. I probably know many of the managers you know, may even know you.
Check out http://bumperdumper.com/bumper2.htm.
Things like this help keep me laughing. Maybe another thing certain guests should be aware of. Often in remote areas you have to 'check the tyre pressure' once in awile. Unfortunately nobody told Mr so & so that there are no public toilets out in bush. "But Why?" Do you even realise how many people cannot come to grips with even this, never mind a mouse!
Dec 28th, 2007, 01:27 AM
#45
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Tuckeg
Another point on the snake following mouse into tent issue. Back from my guiding days I remember how snakes catch their prey. Some will wait in ambush and others will actively follow the scent trail of let's say a mouse. Now if you remember me talking about my established mice, they never go out the house I live in, so what are the chances of a snake picking up on their trail unless it was very close to the house anyway in which case it could just as easily come in itself(they do like corners and angles). There is a much bigger chance of a snake picking up on a scent trail through the bush. If these mice happen to go into a chalet/tent they have probably done so because the last inhabitants were killed so there is space...you know the whole carrying capacity thing. So then maybe the snake would follow it in. I stand by the chewing issue as well. An established mouse family will very seldom chew (except for food). The more mice killed or relocated the more chewing happens and this is fact - ask any one who has been in an area with a very high density of mice!
Another point on the snake following mouse into tent issue. Back from my guiding days I remember how snakes catch their prey. Some will wait in ambush and others will actively follow the scent trail of let's say a mouse. Now if you remember me talking about my established mice, they never go out the house I live in, so what are the chances of a snake picking up on their trail unless it was very close to the house anyway in which case it could just as easily come in itself(they do like corners and angles). There is a much bigger chance of a snake picking up on a scent trail through the bush. If these mice happen to go into a chalet/tent they have probably done so because the last inhabitants were killed so there is space...you know the whole carrying capacity thing. So then maybe the snake would follow it in. I stand by the chewing issue as well. An established mouse family will very seldom chew (except for food). The more mice killed or relocated the more chewing happens and this is fact - ask any one who has been in an area with a very high density of mice!
Dec 28th, 2007, 01:40 AM
#46
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Cutter,
When I read your first post, the first thing I thought was burn-out. From your most recent post, I think I was right. I am sure you are a good manager but you are starting to let it get to you. I am well aware of the turnover and all the difficulties you encounter when you choose the life of a manager. It is not an easy job by any stretch of the imagination. On the other hand it can be very rewarding. Yes, I have heard many managers express frustrations about guests, employees, and life in the bush but always in private conversations not in public. Yes, you cannot express your true emotions in the job, but many other professions have the same limitation. Do you think salespeople or teachers, for example can freely express themselves? It does do you good to express yourself, but do you really think this is the best forum?
I am sure Fodors readers would love to hear from you about your experiences and your honest views on a variety of subjects, including the odd complaint about guests' attitudes (including suriphobia) but to start off with a rant about guests and then say you'll be writing "once or twice a week about guests at lodges rather than the lodges" is, in my opinion, bad form and will not help your profession.
Tuckeg
When I read your first post, the first thing I thought was burn-out. From your most recent post, I think I was right. I am sure you are a good manager but you are starting to let it get to you. I am well aware of the turnover and all the difficulties you encounter when you choose the life of a manager. It is not an easy job by any stretch of the imagination. On the other hand it can be very rewarding. Yes, I have heard many managers express frustrations about guests, employees, and life in the bush but always in private conversations not in public. Yes, you cannot express your true emotions in the job, but many other professions have the same limitation. Do you think salespeople or teachers, for example can freely express themselves? It does do you good to express yourself, but do you really think this is the best forum?
I am sure Fodors readers would love to hear from you about your experiences and your honest views on a variety of subjects, including the odd complaint about guests' attitudes (including suriphobia) but to start off with a rant about guests and then say you'll be writing "once or twice a week about guests at lodges rather than the lodges" is, in my opinion, bad form and will not help your profession.
Tuckeg
Dec 28th, 2007, 02:02 AM
#47
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Tuckeg
In my opening post I did not imply that I would even write negatively about guests. I said "guests at lodges rather than the lodges to maybe help with different info". Help is hardley attacking guests, more like honestly (like some lcamps who mention in a newsletter about a leopard in a tent) helping them make a decision because of certain issues in my experience. The post was also written in a rush like all of mine because I am busy but am enjoying this so just trying to get the point accross quickly.
The fact is that there are people who do not belong in certain places and they should have this info. These days it is all available on the net so whos fault is it if someone did not do a bit of research? I have never been anywhere without knowing the most basic info. So when someone asks me where the tigers are I do believe they should know definately not in Africa.
Right near the beginning I stated that I got my point accross and that was my aim. So if you want to keep pulling text out to do I don't know what, then go ahead. Tell you what, ignore everything I have said and say hello to my little friend Salty, and and other little friend I may have saved OR any future guest who has maybe gained just a little from reading this. Well done to any guest reading this though as they are obviously trying to get a little knowledge before travelling to deepest darkest Africa with no clue! Cheers!
In my opening post I did not imply that I would even write negatively about guests. I said "guests at lodges rather than the lodges to maybe help with different info". Help is hardley attacking guests, more like honestly (like some lcamps who mention in a newsletter about a leopard in a tent) helping them make a decision because of certain issues in my experience. The post was also written in a rush like all of mine because I am busy but am enjoying this so just trying to get the point accross quickly.
The fact is that there are people who do not belong in certain places and they should have this info. These days it is all available on the net so whos fault is it if someone did not do a bit of research? I have never been anywhere without knowing the most basic info. So when someone asks me where the tigers are I do believe they should know definately not in Africa.
Right near the beginning I stated that I got my point accross and that was my aim. So if you want to keep pulling text out to do I don't know what, then go ahead. Tell you what, ignore everything I have said and say hello to my little friend Salty, and and other little friend I may have saved OR any future guest who has maybe gained just a little from reading this. Well done to any guest reading this though as they are obviously trying to get a little knowledge before travelling to deepest darkest Africa with no clue! Cheers!
Dec 28th, 2007, 04:34 AM
#48
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congrats cutter on a great thread, condolences on the fact that tuckeg seems to detest you but such is life. since we're on a fairly "touchy" subject i would like to ask you and all the regular safari-addicts which you have attracted what they think about camps who serve venison for dinner?
as a self proclaimed bush lover i have often been around guests at the dinner table and heard them ask why there is no choice of a venison! surely to happily "snap" away for 8 hours a day and admire all of africa's cutest and rarest and most dangerous creatures and then expect them served up on a plate for dinner is a little sick to say the least? "mmm this leg of baby impala is so juicy" or perhaps a "tasty sitatunga stew" What are these customers thinking? I could almost understand it if it is a hunting camp (although I detest them and those who visit them) but who in their right mind wants to eat the "sighting of the day!"
by the way cutter, i hope you don't serve venison but something tells me it is not your style to do so.
on another topic the author of the book you spoke about got serverely injured by an elephant. just shows that one should never underestimate nature no matter how familiar you are with it!
i think the can of worms has been opened a little further, all we need to do now is discuss who all our next presidents will be ... oops wrong forum.
give Salty a cashew nut from me this evening please
Eric
as a self proclaimed bush lover i have often been around guests at the dinner table and heard them ask why there is no choice of a venison! surely to happily "snap" away for 8 hours a day and admire all of africa's cutest and rarest and most dangerous creatures and then expect them served up on a plate for dinner is a little sick to say the least? "mmm this leg of baby impala is so juicy" or perhaps a "tasty sitatunga stew" What are these customers thinking? I could almost understand it if it is a hunting camp (although I detest them and those who visit them) but who in their right mind wants to eat the "sighting of the day!"
by the way cutter, i hope you don't serve venison but something tells me it is not your style to do so.
on another topic the author of the book you spoke about got serverely injured by an elephant. just shows that one should never underestimate nature no matter how familiar you are with it!
i think the can of worms has been opened a little further, all we need to do now is discuss who all our next presidents will be ... oops wrong forum.
give Salty a cashew nut from me this evening please
Eric
Dec 28th, 2007, 05:10 AM
#49
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Tuckeg said: "It does do you good to express yourself, but do you really think this is the best forum?"
So clients are allowed to complain on this forum, but lodge managers should not publish their private views in public? I guess this kind of thinking is exactly one of the reasons why some people travel unprepared and without enough knowledge of their destinations. How should they learn about all aspects of their safari if you only allow the 'official' glossy brochure propaganda of the marketing departments?
Thank you, cutther, for your refreshing post. Please go on with this stuff.
So clients are allowed to complain on this forum, but lodge managers should not publish their private views in public? I guess this kind of thinking is exactly one of the reasons why some people travel unprepared and without enough knowledge of their destinations. How should they learn about all aspects of their safari if you only allow the 'official' glossy brochure propaganda of the marketing departments?
Thank you, cutther, for your refreshing post. Please go on with this stuff.
Dec 28th, 2007, 05:53 AM
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Ok, everybody just let loose and let the fur fly.
cantona,
Sounds like your "tasty sitatunga stew" has a big spoon in it that's just waiting for a good pot stirring.
Got your ruler ready for some knuckle slapping and some good old fashioned shaming?
Me, I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may intimidate me.
Oy!
cantona,
Sounds like your "tasty sitatunga stew" has a big spoon in it that's just waiting for a good pot stirring.
Got your ruler ready for some knuckle slapping and some good old fashioned shaming?
Me, I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may intimidate me.
Oy!
Dec 28th, 2007, 06:37 AM
#51
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Cutter,
Your first post was completely negative about guests (if I am wrong show me one thing in the post that was positive about guests). You seem to be frustrated about the situtation but couldn't actually tell the guest what you think because that would ruin the guest's experience that is not be what a good manager does. So what happens if a guest now visits Fodors and realizes that they are the person being discussed (or even mistakenly thinks it). You have posted the date it happened so it won't be too hard to put two and two together. Do you really thinks it helps your profession to have guests thinking a manager may later discuss their visit in negative terms in a public forum after not telling them to their face?
Tuckeg
Your first post was completely negative about guests (if I am wrong show me one thing in the post that was positive about guests). You seem to be frustrated about the situtation but couldn't actually tell the guest what you think because that would ruin the guest's experience that is not be what a good manager does. So what happens if a guest now visits Fodors and realizes that they are the person being discussed (or even mistakenly thinks it). You have posted the date it happened so it won't be too hard to put two and two together. Do you really thinks it helps your profession to have guests thinking a manager may later discuss their visit in negative terms in a public forum after not telling them to their face?
Tuckeg
Dec 28th, 2007, 07:04 AM
#52
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<b>Tuckeg & Bill _H,
Are you serious.</b>
Yes I am serious ... I am a snake magnet for some reason and have had close encounters with almost 40 rattlesnakes ... even in Africa in the dry season I had a cobra crawl a few feet in front of me in Namibia.
As two examples, while rafting the Grand Canyon we've had snakes in camp every trip (the guides remove them early before most guests find out). The same sandy beach campsites are used almost daily and small food crumbs attract mice, which at night attract rattlesnakes. The guides catch them in a bucket and release them a couple hundred yards away. One guide I know was bitten and had a rough time before they could find a level spot for an emergency chopper to air-lift him out.
Another example is photographing birds from a blind in Texas, the bridseed attracts rodents which attract diamondback rattlesnakes. The same deal ... food crumbs -> mice -> snakes.
<b>You're going to get snakes in tents whether there are mice in there or not.</b>
So do you think you'll attract more snakes if you have snake-food (mice) in your tent, or fewer snakes? Do you think it's easier for a snake to enter a tent if there are ground-level holes chewed by mice? I do ... tolerating mice in tents in these camps is poor policy, I feel.
Bill
Are you serious.</b>
Yes I am serious ... I am a snake magnet for some reason and have had close encounters with almost 40 rattlesnakes ... even in Africa in the dry season I had a cobra crawl a few feet in front of me in Namibia.
As two examples, while rafting the Grand Canyon we've had snakes in camp every trip (the guides remove them early before most guests find out). The same sandy beach campsites are used almost daily and small food crumbs attract mice, which at night attract rattlesnakes. The guides catch them in a bucket and release them a couple hundred yards away. One guide I know was bitten and had a rough time before they could find a level spot for an emergency chopper to air-lift him out.
Another example is photographing birds from a blind in Texas, the bridseed attracts rodents which attract diamondback rattlesnakes. The same deal ... food crumbs -> mice -> snakes.
<b>You're going to get snakes in tents whether there are mice in there or not.</b>
So do you think you'll attract more snakes if you have snake-food (mice) in your tent, or fewer snakes? Do you think it's easier for a snake to enter a tent if there are ground-level holes chewed by mice? I do ... tolerating mice in tents in these camps is poor policy, I feel.
Bill
Dec 28th, 2007, 07:56 AM
#54
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OK guys, what is the real problem here?
To name a few of my dislikes, I hate spiders, ticks and scorpions.
Suffice it to say, ticks were all over my pants (and my guide's pants) after a bush walk we stood there and picked ticks off of each other. No big deal. It goes with the territory.
I've had 2 scorpions in my loo at the same time, one black, one white. I called for the askari to come get them out. Yeah, it made me nervous but it happened.
Tsetes flies, that darned Nairobi fly, etc., the list goes on and on. You deal with them, and move on.
Last year, Sundowner, who accompanied me on safari, was unknowingly bitten by a tick and contracted tick fever, which lasted the majority of the trip. She eventually was flown back to Nairobi to see a tropical disease specialist and was put on antibiotics. Although she felt bad, she didn't whine about it.
You know, you just learn to deal with the unwanted guests one way or another. Let's get real. It's not a five star resort in the middle of a city we're talking about, it's Africa.
IMHO, if you're gonna whine about things like mice, spiders, snakes, ticks, etc., you probably don't belong in the bush to begin with!
Just my 2 cents worth.
To name a few of my dislikes, I hate spiders, ticks and scorpions.
Suffice it to say, ticks were all over my pants (and my guide's pants) after a bush walk we stood there and picked ticks off of each other. No big deal. It goes with the territory.
I've had 2 scorpions in my loo at the same time, one black, one white. I called for the askari to come get them out. Yeah, it made me nervous but it happened.
Tsetes flies, that darned Nairobi fly, etc., the list goes on and on. You deal with them, and move on.
Last year, Sundowner, who accompanied me on safari, was unknowingly bitten by a tick and contracted tick fever, which lasted the majority of the trip. She eventually was flown back to Nairobi to see a tropical disease specialist and was put on antibiotics. Although she felt bad, she didn't whine about it.
You know, you just learn to deal with the unwanted guests one way or another. Let's get real. It's not a five star resort in the middle of a city we're talking about, it's Africa.
IMHO, if you're gonna whine about things like mice, spiders, snakes, ticks, etc., you probably don't belong in the bush to begin with!
Just my 2 cents worth.
Dec 28th, 2007, 08:08 AM
#55
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Come on Bill & Tuckeg
First of all Bill
This is Africa not America. If you read my last thread about the snake following mouse scent it will pretty much answer your babbling. It is very different having temporary camps in America with crumbs to attract mice and therefore snakes. That is obvious.
Glad the chopper got to the guy on time though, very good organisation!
The problem with rattle snakes is that they are the type of snake that sits and waits for prey as they are vipers - similar to our adders. I may be wrong but in Africa if you were to get a snake in your tent it would not be an adder. It would be a cobra, mamba, or one of the hundreds of harmless snakes that actively hunt rather then ambush. Please stop comparing. It is the same as the disease thing with mice mentioned way earlier, has not happened in camps.
Tuckeg
You know what? I would love the guest to read it and put two & two together. The fact is that this happens hundreds of times at hundreds of camps so go figure - don't think that will happen. If someone mistakenly thinks they are the one so be it. I am not doing this for the industry but for the MICE!!!!!
First of all Bill
This is Africa not America. If you read my last thread about the snake following mouse scent it will pretty much answer your babbling. It is very different having temporary camps in America with crumbs to attract mice and therefore snakes. That is obvious.
Glad the chopper got to the guy on time though, very good organisation!
The problem with rattle snakes is that they are the type of snake that sits and waits for prey as they are vipers - similar to our adders. I may be wrong but in Africa if you were to get a snake in your tent it would not be an adder. It would be a cobra, mamba, or one of the hundreds of harmless snakes that actively hunt rather then ambush. Please stop comparing. It is the same as the disease thing with mice mentioned way earlier, has not happened in camps.
Tuckeg
You know what? I would love the guest to read it and put two & two together. The fact is that this happens hundreds of times at hundreds of camps so go figure - don't think that will happen. If someone mistakenly thinks they are the one so be it. I am not doing this for the industry but for the MICE!!!!!
Dec 28th, 2007, 08:17 AM
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BillH/Tuckeg: I totally agree on snakes being drawn to rodents. Pretty much no comment has been made on my suggestion of a no food in tents policy, which would greatly head off the rodent issue before it starts. Snakes are going to be the same way, they go where food is and if it is concentrated reliably in one place that will draw them as well. Personally I don't mind seeing rodents or snakes in camp but I think I'm a minority with that and it bothers me considerably that snakes are commonly killed at camps so I wish efforts would be made not to attract them in the first place.
Sandi: I understand the live trapping won't work so well in NYC do to lack of release options. Honestly, probably all of your mice are house mice (Mus musculus) which is a non-native species anyway so you would be providing a service by eliminating members of an exotic species in the USA. Happily for me I have only had native species entering my home.
Sandi: I understand the live trapping won't work so well in NYC do to lack of release options. Honestly, probably all of your mice are house mice (Mus musculus) which is a non-native species anyway so you would be providing a service by eliminating members of an exotic species in the USA. Happily for me I have only had native species entering my home.
Dec 28th, 2007, 08:32 AM
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Sigh. I suppose this is another (the only?) benefit to being a budget safari-goer. We are just thankful to be in a tent at all! But I do I hate the tse-tse fly. And although I love frogs, when one suddenly <b>hops</b> out of the short-drop, it does no good for my blood pressure.
Dec 28th, 2007, 08:35 AM
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cutther: I think this is a very good thread and I'm glad you posted it. I see the snake biology much differently than you do though. I don't understand why you think a food source that attracts rodents and then provides a food source for snakes in America is any different than in Africa, it's the same principle anywhere in the world that species will seek out and make use of reliable food sources. A snake that is an ambush predator still needs to find a good source of prey to lay in wait in a proper location. In fact an ambush predator likely needs higher reliable densities since it is not tracking food over distances. By the way I did find and remove an adder species (night adder) from a chalet this past November.
Dec 28th, 2007, 08:52 AM
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In interest of education the disease thing is an important consideration as well. Rodents are known to carry about 35 diseases worldwide including salmonella, a bacteria that causes food poisoning so I'd be careful eating from any in tent food sources that are being visited by rodents as well as other unpleasantries such as ringworm, mites, tapeworms and ticks. Deadly things like hanta virus and plague are rare but they can occur and due to my work with rodents I always hope there won't one day be a disease named after me as the first vicitm of something new since you never know what's coming.
But of course that is where I join in with the majority of posters on this thread. Risks are tremendously low and some species of mice can get through a hole as small as a pencil so you are going to share space with them whether you like it or not and in a wild environment it should be considered to be a very reasonable occurence.
But of course that is where I join in with the majority of posters on this thread. Risks are tremendously low and some species of mice can get through a hole as small as a pencil so you are going to share space with them whether you like it or not and in a wild environment it should be considered to be a very reasonable occurence.
