For whatever it's worth, I had an extended discussion with our guide about how they get paid, and whether those who take out private groups (2) lose out relative to those who take out full tour groups. He explained that at the beginning of every month, the tour company plots out a schedule, rotating the guides between large and small groups so that it is fairly equal. He also noted that this doesn't always work either, because some really small parties may tip very well, and some larger parties may be really stingy tippers. In any case, we stressed out about this during our entire trip -- but it seemed like even though there are recommended amounts, people tip all over the place. Roy's Safaris recommended $10/day/vechicle (we were 2)for Tanzania. We ended up tipping 150% - 200% of that. There was another European couple we ran into also using Roys, and they tipped $10 per day total. In the case of 5 people, I would decide on a per day vehicle tip and perhaps count all three kids as one person.

Thank you for all of your replies. I am sorry I have not responded sooner, I am in the throws of trying to catch up work before we leave on Saturday.

I am think that I have some wiggle room for the tipping amount. I have heard wonderful things on this board about guides really entertaining the kids and going the extra step. That should account for more in the tip department as I am sure that those are the things that really make your trip.

I am trying to set aside about about $40 per day for the guide and more if they are really good with the kids. I am going to count both the kids as one adult.

Thanks, Heather

ok,ok, if you read my post, what I said was that what I do may NOT be for everyone. It's just simply my way of doing things. What works for me, may not for others - dig?

Nyamera,
FYI, 1000. USD per mos. really is not a typical American salary for anyone who plans on going to Tanzania, that I can assure you. So to suggest that I'm inflicting my salary requirements on poor unsuspecting Tanzanians is unfair and can almost sound like one of those bad, bad American tourist stereotyping rants that doesn't serve anyone well. I say this respectfully.

As far as the Tanzanian salary info. that I stated previously, I am only going on what I was told. I think you will find that there may be more Tanzanians than you may think living quite comfortably and are able to own homes and send their children to schools that they find appropriate. Guides, I'm told, fall into the rather new and upcoming middle class segment of the population. It is this class of people who are helping the struggling Tanzanians and trying to straighten out the government unlike the old 2 class system that has had a choke hold on Tanzanians for centuries.

Regardless and getting back to my original point, if you've got the extra dough and want to reward a job well done do so, if not.... well, don't.
Peace;
Sherry

Sherry,
If you read my post you’ll see that I’m actually saying that you are setting a standard and that I would like to follow it. Guides’ salaries are nowhere near $1000 a month, but if they can earn that amount in tips, every month, they’re definitely middle class – and that’s very good (even though I’m not as convinced of the virtues of the middle class as you are, a big middle class is something the strive for because it means lots of people are having a good life. Unfortunately I’ve read that the middle class in Kenya is shrinking). I’ve met people in Kenya who were earning less than $100 and building houses and sending their children to school. Maybe they where earning a bit more than $100 with tips (camp staff, not guides) added and their spouses had some animals and vegetables. That, the fact that most East Africans are earning less, and what I know about teacher’s salaries made me think you had added a cero to what was needed to live relatively well in Tanzania, but I’ve also read that those teachers aren’t living well at all. I would not find inflicting your salary requirements – whatever they may be, probably substantial - on Tanzanians a reason to call you a bad, bad American, quite the contrary, if poor Tanzanians could go on holidays to the USA that would mean the world was a fair place.
On a Spanish Kenya forum people often complain of being informed that “outrageous” tips ($4-5 pppd) are expected after paying a “fortune” (half of a “normal” Fodorite trip) for their trips and that tips should be a small token of appreciation for a service well delivered. Then I write how people who pay more that $10 pppd reason, with examples from this board. I could do some “bad American” stereotyping, but there’s also “good American” stereotyping that I practise and, besides being of a nice cheerful disposition when on holidays, that includes being very good tippers.
Salaam

We actually had a discussion about this with our guide as well. He stated that he earns about a $1000 per month with tips included. He also said he needed to earn about that much in order to be able to send his kids to private school, have a modest house, etc......


Jenn

Nyamera, you haven't been keeping us up to date with that Spanish forum... I love it - the tips are being "extorted"! My sister's Spanish father-in-law admonished me not once, but twice, for leaving tips in restaurants because "We won't be coming back here again". I think it was a matter of principle to him. Being nice and naive, I will say it's just a different way of thinking, I guess. What did they think of the Americans over here at Fodor's then Nyamera?

And I wonder how well Africans tip? (really, I do - I'm not being sarcastic)

Finally, because it was on my mind I noticed something interesting written by Chris McIntyre who wrote the Bradt guides to Botswana and Namibia when I was looking up some information about Namibis this morning ... It'd never really jumped out at me before, but he says "thoughtlessly tipping too much is just as bad as tipping too little". We could say the McIntyre name shows some Scottish blood but I think there's more to it.

He also says it's a contentious subject... I think that's been demonstrated well enough here, but if we want to find out just how contentious perhaps we'd have to invite a few of the Spaniards over - Nyamera, could you translate? ;-)

By the way, I am very fond of both Spain and (most of) it's people - in case someone takes me the wrong way.

We have just returned from the Selous Safari Camp. In the information pack provided by the camp they recommended a tip of $7-8 per person per day as a communal tip for all the camp staff which seemed an entirely reasonable amount. Over-tipping seems to be an American thing which unfortunately, is being exported to the rest of the world. The primary disadvantage of this approach is that it perpetuates the low salaries paid to employees in the tourism industry and effectively ultimately benefits the employer in terms of lower wage costs.

In many countries around the world tipping is simply not in the culture and it is expected in the way it is in the USA. In the UK it is the norm to tip around 10-15% of the bill in a restaurant but ONLY is the service has been good whereas in the US it seems that tips are expected (and paid!) for even the most appalling service.

When tipping in countries other than my own, I try to keep a sense of perspective and adjust the level of tips to the income levels in the country I am visiting. $10 per day is and absolute fortune to most people in Africa and Asia. Locals don't do it so why should visitors?

The hospitality industry, in general, is not one that pays high wages, Regardless the country. With the exception of a General Manager, Banquet Manager or Convention Sales Manager at hotels, they are low-paying jobs - waiters, housekeepers, bartenders, concierge, etc. Valets, on the other hand, especially in Las Vegas are prized positions and often handed down through families.

Outside the US, in many (not all) countries wait-people receive a respectible salary; not so in the US, so waitpersons depend on tips.

Having worked in this industry, in one of my past lives, I can attest to this and since my position wasn't one that came in close contact with the public, tips weren't an option. For others, tips were a large portion of their income. Once, meeting a Banquet Manager, a friend of my partner, with a major Las Vegas hotel, often working 20/hr days, had a yearly income of barely $50K; tips which were sizeable made up for this shortfall so he and his family were quite comfortable.

And, I'm sure when many of us have traveled around the world, we come to realize that locals rarely tip for services - not to housekeeping, valets, doormen, waitstaff, etc. If they do, it may be a few small coins to lighten the weight in their pockets.

Even tour guides, whether escorting a group to a foreign country, or in-country local guides, do not have liveable salaries and depend on tips. But within a reasonable amount representative of the country being visited.

America is the "tipping" country; more countries are beginning to follow, but it's happening solely. So, while I don't necessaily agreee with "well, we won't be back again or see this person" a tip may be warranted and should be in line with the individual country.

Use guidelines that are provided, and make your own personal decision based on what your pocketbook can handle. Unless you are in an industry or business where you depend on tips, many often wonder "am I really responsible for paying for the this person's new car, clothes for their children, school tuitions, etc." It's perfectly okay to take this into consideration.

Well I hate to get back into this again about American stereotyping but many Americans do stiff the waitstaff and others - shocking, yes, but true, as <b>NOT ALL</b> Americans react to tipping in the same ways as stated above. Just like everywhere else, we do have generous, over generous, suggested guideline tippers and down right cheap people. It just depends on which factory the American came from .

I don't do this often, but I actually tipped ZERO recently due to deplorable service - imagine that, an American who did not tip due to worse than terrible service.

When in countries where the service charge is built in or not expected I adjust accordingly. Tanzania is not one of those countries and the guides depend on tips, btw. Again tip what you like and don't blame Americans if your feeling less than generous - it's entirely an individual matter.
Peace;
Sherry

Sandi, your much more eloquent than I. Looks like we posted at the same time - my comments were not in reaction to your post.

Sherri -

It's a touchy topic, depending on how we've been taught or what is expected. And with visitors from all countries traveling to all countries, what is given will be vastly different.

Surprisingly, when planning a trip anywhere, most travelers only consider the airfare to/from, their hotels, meals, tours, in-country transport and tips for the porter/bellboy. Then once all of this is confirmed as it fits the projected budget, they learn about Visas, inoculations or other meds, special/different clothing, and the real tipping.

Admittedly, as we've all learned, these incidentals can add a chunk of money to the initial budget. Let alone the cost of a new digital camera, memory sticks, lenses, carrying case, batteries, on and on (often even more costly than those darn tips).

I would highly recommend for travelers anywhere, to check out everything, not just those initial &quot;hooks&quot; to get you to consider a destination. Know the difference between &quot;visit&quot; vs &quot;see&quot; when it comes to sights, location of hotels, costs of meals not included, as well additional/option tours. It's not as simple as &quot;Oh, $2,000 to ......, I can afford that, I'm going.&quot; Then be surprised when the $2,000 winds up being closer to twice that.

This is really interesting, although I'm not sure if it's an African topic anymore.

I wonder if there isn't more to what Chris McIntyre meant than just perpetuating low salaries, though. I am sure it does perpetuate them - and not just in Africa and the US - but I think there must be the risk that by overtipping you (not especially Americans I hasten to add - I grew up in Scotland and so can understand if the tipping jokes wear a bit thin Sherry ... doesn't stop them, though) can make people willing to lose their dignity... that's getting much too &quot;heavy&quot; by far and I stress it's just a guess - I am really not up on the issues, and I'd hate to give the Scots a reason to feel smug. ;-)

Guess Sandy222 got her answer!

When I was in Zambia earlier this year, the guides told me that guide-salaries in southern Africa have increased recently. Especially for good guides who are subject to &quot;poaching&quot; from other companies and camps.

When I was last in Kenya (2005), I had a long chat with my guide about salaries. He actually told me that salaries in East Africa are quite poor (he was earning $300 per month working for a reputable company) and the guides rely heavily on tips. He also told me that large tips encouraged the employers to pay guides lower salaries. He was very sensible and hoped that one day he could earn a decent salary without relying on tips - and that some of the employers' vast profits could be passed on to the guides.

I’ve heard exactly the same “We won't be coming back here again&quot; comment in Spain and my reply is that then we have the opportunity to appear as decent people. Swedes aren’t much better in this department, though somewhat more adaptable to other cultures when on holiday. I’ve worked for a short time in a tipped job and from the tipped person’s point of view there is no such thing as “over tipping”. Of course decent salaries are better than tips, but it’s not going to happen it East Africa anytime soon and things being as they are I think people spending more pppd on a safari than the guide’s monthly salary should be generous. One thing that could be done is to find out what guides at different companies are being paid and post it here on Fodor’s as a factor to weigh in when choosing a safari.

My impression is that in East Africa outside tourists circuits tipping is not part of the culture and that an East African on an upmarket safari would wonder why he should tip a fortune to someone who’s earning 3 times as much as a teacher. Though I’ve only come across 2 (black) East Africans on safari and I don’t know how much they tipped.

Updates from the Spanish Kenya forum (for Kimburu): most people are going on the same group safaris bought from Spanish agents. In their posts they write their dates and ask if anyone is going on the same safari and they also ask about packing, which optional excursions are recommended and if there are mosquitoes. People who come back from their safaris want to return as soon as possible, but they say the food is too spicy. A girl who was going on a group safari with her sister was told, less than 2 weeks before departure, to pay 400&euro; more because only upmarket accommodation was available. Now it looks like Gamewatchers, Eastern and Southern and some others can arrange a short notice private safari for less money than she had paid for her group safari before the add-on. The agent wanted to charge her a cancellation fee plus 100% of the ground service. In the brochure it says that the safari can be cancelled for free if prices are raised and they cannot be raised when there are less than 20 days to departure. She got her money back today after telling the agent what she would do.
And there are lots of dead flamingos at Lake Nakuru. I have to ask Fodorites about this tomorrow.

I don't know about anyone else, but I was brought up not to put my hands into someone else's pocket. It's rude. And if you knew, what would it mean? Do you know what one's responsibilities are, their rent, house note, car payment, childrens expenses, divorce payment, etc. etc. or whether they are overextended and have the repo guy after them.

While close friends may discuss their salaries, and often someone may be fluffing up, I don't recall in my lifetime asking anyone &quot;how much money do you make?&quot; In all my years in corporate jobs, I never had an idea what the person in the next office was earning, nor did I care. I cared only about what I was taking home. Sure, I was aware of range of salaries, but specifics never. And years after leaving the corporate world, meeting for lunch with a former business associate, was surprised to learn that she always thought I was being paid way more than she, when actually I was paid less.

Why would you want to invade someones privacy and list their salary on an open message board. We know that salaries for those we come in contact while in Africa are low, yet guiding jobs are highly sought considering the options available to many. Would this same person be earning more money if living elsewhere? And what would be the trade-offs.

I think we've beat this horse enough.
We have the guidelines; we can use our own good sense in the decision we make.

Guide &quot;poaching&quot; is taken very seriously in Southern Africa, where a lot of money is invested in the development of guides.

The problem in East Africa, is that there are too many guides - independent and employed. Many are not even qualified. My Kenyan guide told me that poaching guides is not a major issue in East Africa, where guides are easily replaced. It is only recently, where the smaller owner-run properties have started to invest in and develop their guides in a professional way (e.g. Rekero).

One thing my Kenyan guide did say was that figures mentioned as &quot;recommended tips&quot; have a much higher inflation rate than their salaries....which says it all really. I hope things improve for them soon.

Do the employers of the guides know how much they are tipped? Does the money you give to the guide as a tip have to be shared?

I tip a daily minimum of $10/guide, $6/tracker, $20/staff. Usually more to the guide &amp; tracker. I just assumed it's their money and private.

&quot;large tips encourage the employers to pay guides lower salaries&quot; means to me that they know how much the tips are.

Sundowner, the tips don't have to be shared, but employers assume that a certain amount will be given based on the length of the trip and the number of clients.

I've been doing safaris for more than 10 years now - East and Southern Africa. I don't know if other people have noticed but.......with most Southern Africa itineraries and companies - tipping is mentioned but figures are NOT quoted.

With East Africa, it is the complete opposite, where &quot;recommended&quot; amounts the constantly quoted and updated, by ground handlers, agents etc, so the tourist is well-informed.

&quot;I've been doing safaris for more than 10 years now - East and Southern Africa. I don't know if other people have noticed but.......with most Southern Africa itineraries and companies - tipping is mentioned but figures are NOT quoted.&quot;- <i>Africa</i>

With similar length of experience, I had noticed this. But tipping has never been a hassle for me. Australia doesn't have a tipping culture, though it may be gaining ground on the more Americanised east coast (why is a complete mystery, as the wage systems in the two countries seem very different. I find it ironic that hospitality workers in the world's richest country require tips). I've been lucky, though, to have an agent who covers absolutely all bases in his advice to his clients. He is a true Africa expert, having run safaris long before starting up his business as an agent. His pre-departure booklet has a full page devoted to tipping advice. I'm cutting corners here, but the most pertinent points are: Hotel porterage if required is generally US50c to US$1; you should budget US$6 to US$12 per client per day for your driver-guide (budget safaris at the lower end of the scale), to be paid at the end of the safari; and a much smaller amount for camp staff who you see little of, to be put clearly labelled into the gratuity box or handed to camp management. I use this advice only as a guide.

John

Hello!!! I dont think, employers pay a lower salary because they assume the tips are huge. The safari industry is very competitive, and the strength of any camp/lodge should be the quality of guides. So, if someone pays lower wages, eventually the guides will leave them!!! I think companies will recognize this and pay them adequately. However, tipping should come from the heart and always at the end of the stay........

Hari