Dressing Down of America?
 

Does anyone else dislike the "dressing down" of America?

When I go to a nice restaurant, I don't go overboard, but I do wear nice pants and (in the winter) my husband wears a coat, usually without a tie. When we're seated next to a table of folks wearing jeans, it's a little disconcerting.

The last time we were in Commander's Palace in NO, I was shocked to see that coats and ties were no longer necessary for men.

What's up with that? This is a subject that I've thought of off and on for several years, but when I saw the post about "what to wear to a Broadway show" it brought it back home.

Does anyone else miss the old days when people dressed up a little more?

This might be a question of age :)

Don't get me wrong...I don't want to wear a dress, but I do wear nice and/or dressy pants and am fairly irked when I show up someplace and find myself surrounded with folks in jeans.

Yes, yes, I know some of those jeans cost a couple of hundred dollars, but I don't care. They're JEANS!

Yes - I have a problem with dressing down too.

Not that everyone should be in suits and ties all the time - but somehow business casual at work has evolved from collar shirt (or polo shirt) and slacks for men to ratty tee shirt, jean and sneakers. And the women are worse - looking like they've escaped from the Britney back up dancers. Ad agencies were always more casual - but tube tops and cut off jeans are NOT appropriate.

As for going out to dinner - if you've just cleaned out the garage (or are dressed as if you did) stick to fast food places or a diner. I don't want to be paying $100 for a nice dinner and have to eat it looking at some guy's hairy bare legs or armpits. I'm not suggesting a suit and tie - but if you won;t wear - or don't own - a shirt with a collar, a pair of full length pants (as in khakis or cords or something) and a pair of real shoes - please stay out of nice restaurants.

I was on jury duty a couple of years ago and 2 young women were sent home - and told their missed day didn;t count - due to their attire. One had on a tube top and super mini skirt (and frankly looked as if she should be standing on a corner on 12th Ave) and the other had on a low cut halter and shorts so short her (sizeable) bottom was partially visible. They were both astonished when told their attire was not accepetible.

What is the matter with these people?

I used to buy into the thinking that people felt better about themselves and even performed better if they dressed nicely. Tell ya what; I'm happy to say I wore jeans to the office today. And my performance here sucks no worse than if I'd worn a suit and tie. :-)

So, when I'm in situations where I see others dressed in ways I don't think appropriate, I ask myself, is it me or them who has the problem.... Unless they're breaking the law, I usually land on me.

I agree with the two of you. And, I believe it is worse on the west coast than the east coast. I find it especially glaring at concert and theatre venues.

Funny story. We have one long time restaurant in town that STILL requires jacket for men in the main dining room, although you don't need one to eat in the other two main rooms or the bar. Not long ago we joined friends (with our jackets) for dinner in the main dining room. I couldn't help but notice all the 70 year olds in 20 year old polyester or bright colored silk sport coats, or in a couple cases pastel polyester leisure suits that had to be 30 years old. In the bar were a lot of younger men, some wearing beautiful and expensive designer shirts and nice slacks and $400 shoes.

I've finally gotten over the old idea that simply wearing a jacket makes a man "better dressed".

But in all honesty, Susan, I'm with you. I don't care what jeans cost, I still think they're jeans and don't belong for fine dining.

And I do miss the days of dressing up for nice occasions, including the theatre.

Aaahhh, Susan, you're right on the money. Sneakers, jeans and ball caps. Indeed, I do wear the latter two on occasion (though not the former.)

Many years ago, I worked in a coat and tie. I didn't mind it. Indeed, I thought I looked good. And I'm virtually certain I was a better worker.

I find distressing, too, that this sloppy mindset has gone over to the military. I was in the USAF. And wore a blue uniform most days. (Ask my wife--she'll tell you she was a sucker for a boy in blue!) And too, in those days, the air policeman on the gates were sharp: Pressed blouse and trousers, white helmet and uniform accents. Stood tall, we did. Somewhere along the line, it seemed to all go away. I believe it was the identification with the "Warfighter," the pointy end of the stick, as it were. Those guys need an appropriate, fatigue-type uniform. But chairborne support folks--no, not really. And I cringe every time I see an Army 3 or 4-star on TV, or testifying somewhere in fatigues.

'Tain't right....

No, I don't mind at all, but I live in Seattle, so that explains it, huh? I do dress up when I go to the opera or ballet or a really nice restaurant, and a bit when I travel in Europe (and NYC), but it doesn't bother me that other people don't. I've been at the opera in Florence and ballet and concerts in Paris, etc. etc. where people (adults, not just students) have been in jeans, and really, it doesn't bother me. I'm happy to be wearing something "dressy" for a change, but really, why should how anyone else is dressed bother me?

It's this dressing down habit that gets people to asking (on the Europe forum) endless questions on what they should wear (or more accurately, what they can get away with) when visiting churches in Italy.

"why should how anyone else is dressed bother me?"

Well, call me funny, but if I'm spending several hundred dollars for a really great meal in what is supposed to be a really great restaurant, and the draperies next to our table are old, faded, and have holes in them -- or if the chairs or carpet are worn then I'm not happy. In fact if the furnishings look cheap and appear they belong in a cheap fast food place, I'm equally less impressed. I am bothered by my surroundings. So why shouldn't I be equally "bothered" by the atmosphere if the people next to me are in shorts and tank tops or work clothes that look stained, or have flip flops on smelly feet? They too are part of the ambiance and atmosphere of the restaurant.

Well, I still wear my gloves, girdle, nylons and hat whenever I eat out!

I am guilty as being in the front ranks of casual dress. I hate most dress clothes and if the clothes are neat and clean, what difference does it make. I am not at a restaurant to please the other diners but to amuse the others at the table abd please the palate.

I worked for the last fifteen years at the bastion of suit and ties. It is uncomfortable and constricting. I wear black jeans and for an expensive restaurant with a tailored shirt. And if a restaurant requires a jacket and tie, i just might go elsewhere.

As far the theatre is concerned, the players and actors do not care what you wear.

I first really noticed "dressing down" in Florida.
We liked this Bistro that was really a very good restaurant..not cheap, and everyone wore shorts..well, not everyone, you would have known which ones were Scarlett & family ~
But Portland Oregon ( as much as I love it there) took the Prize for Dressed Down.
Going to see a visiting Russian Ballet company, there were women in ballgowns..(going a little too far but at least they made the effort) and people in flannels and gortex etc..

I am now in a foreign country and enjoy dressing like a grown up in the city every day and I have now realized that I can spot Americans often..by their headwear ??
When did America become such a Hat Happy Country?
I know baseball hats are popular, I know bald/balding men love them...but I am seeing some funny looking hats and a lot of cargo pants with a zillion zippers and pockets..this isn't the Sahara or a jungle, it is a city..lol.

People think it is "old fashioned" to get dressed for occasions.
I have become Old Fashioned :(

"I am not at a restaurant to please the other diners."

Hmm. Interesting concept. So then it would be all right if you left your cell phone on or talked loudly? Or if you and your companions talked in loud voices? Or got up and walked around the table?

I find it hard to believe that most people don't do a number of things purposely for the benefit and comfort of those around them in a nice restaurant. It's simply called good manners or good breeding. It seems that dressing appropriate to the restaurant in consideration of the guidelines of the place or the comfort of the other guests would be no different than your decorum at the table.

Patrick, (re: decorum)
I remember years ago in NY, having dinner with a bunch of people. One woman, beautifully dressed, sat and talked a bit loudly but otherwise seemed well-mannered.
All of a sudden, she reached over to her husbands plate and picked something off with her hands and popped it in her mouth..like an asparagus or something.
There was this little pause...then everyone continued but I couldn't wait to tell my mom LOL
( Her English grandmother used to poke her in the back with a fork at the table if she slouched)...

If you want the best table in the house, dress up, otherwise you'll get the water closet seat.

I do like dressing like a girl on occasion and stepping out with my duded up guy.

On the one hand, I'm thrilled that "business casual" or "dressy casual" will take you anywhere nicely. And, it's great when we happen by a really nice place but my husband is wearing a dress shirt and sweater and not a jacket and tie. I appreciate not feeling like I should have worn a dress and heels.

I agree, though, that jeans are jeans. "Dressy" jeans? "Smart" jeans? "Nicer" jeans? What are these people talking about?

I just wish people would dress as nicely as the place they're visiting.

To me, it's awful when people wear jeans, worse shorts, to a restaurant where the waiters are dressed in tuxes.

The owner of a very nice restaurant told us years ago that he stuck to the "jacket and tie" requirement until he was just turning too many "covers" away and couldn't afford that.

One time, we returned to our hotel room to change for dinner. Just as our food was being served, a party in shorts was seated at the next table. I didn't mind that so much, as the hairy legs and dirty feet the guy next to me would not put under the table.

I know some "traditional" (aka stuffy) restaurants have been remodeling to make them more have a more trendy and modern feel. One of them being the Mansion on Turtle Creek in Dallas. It has been a famous restaurant for decades, one of these dinasaur restos. Last year, they finally remodeled and got rid of tablecloth, as well as the "jacket required" dress code in order to attract the younger crowd.

I personally don't mind that in restos. In fact, I'd rather dine at a modern/trendy place than a stuffy white-gloved resto where man has to wear a jacket - if both places have similar quality of food.

Of course there should be an unspoken dress code if the resto charges $15 for apps and $30+ for entrees - diners should not be wearing ripped T-shirts or ripped jeans or flip-flops.

For shows & the symphony, I still dress up (ie no jeans). But given the fact that I now live in Boston and have to walk quite a bit (unlike Dallas where we drive everywhere), I just can't wear those 3" heels anymore.

I just remembered our dining experience last weekend in Boston. DH & I met up with my SIL for dinner at a fairly nice, mod-priced French Bistro. I have eaten there before and I'd say folks who go there tend to dress pretty smart.

Well, it was the night before the Boston Marathon and the resto is right near the hotels & finishing line, so there were MANY tourists/marathon runners eating there.

What I'm gonna say next will make me sound like I'm stereotyping, and I am. Most of these folks show up in T-shirts, shorts and running shoes. Totally NOT appropriate for a French Bistro!

The only time I'll let DH wear shorts to a restaurant is if we're going for cheap Asian food, or a bar for burgers/beer.

I can honestly say that I never, ever notice what other people are wearing unless it is obscene and attracting attention. I really could not care less.
The only exception would be seat mates on planes. No toes showing (even toes in strappy Manolo sandals) no armpits (sleeveless, even if wearing a 500 sundress).

Yes, I notice it.

While I believe in freedom of speech and freedom of dress, I also feel free to have and dress to my own taste.

So, I like to dress nice for nice places and special events. I like to see other people dressed nice at those places and events.

And I do see a lot less of it than I once did.

My clothing peeves are -

High waisted boxers/thongs combined with low waisted jeans/slacks. I'm not conservative or shocked by the sight of a backside. I dislike the sloppiness of it and endless repositioning that goes with it. I know its in style and anyone over 20 is intended to not like it.

Short crop/halter tops combined with very low rise jeans/slacks on people who have rolls of extra, well, body in between. Its like advertising ones sedentary lifestyle and/or excess eating. Not a crime, and I'm not perfect. I don't like to look at it. I wonder if the people who do it think its really attractive or follow style more than sense.

Finally, am I the only one who's noticed that teen/twenty ish girls are wearing less and less while teen/twenty ish boys are so swaddled in extra cloth that it's impossible to tell if they are fit and trim (read have a nice body) or not. Not a fair deal for the girls, I think. Time was everyone had some idea what they might be dating by looking.

Anyway, it's not a big deal to me. Yet, I do like to see people dressed nicely.

I hate to be judgmental and usually say to each his own, but I think it's nice when people dress up for nice places and it makes you feel like you are somewhere special. Plus I think people who are dressed nicely tend to exhibit more manners and decorum at functions. Of course, if you are at a Chiles or someplace not so upscale, dressing casual is ok. The place and/or the occasion should dictate your attire. However, unless you are a homeless person and can't help it, I don't think being dirty looking or having clothes that look like you just rolled out of bed are ever appropriate. I hate all the dirty rubber flipflops that everyone seems to wear everywhere and those stupid pajama pants - the ones that really are pajamas. And you don't have to have a lot of money to be clean and look nice. It's just about giving a damn. If you are really that unwilling to dress or at least look clean - just order in! :)

<i>Plus I think people who are dressed nicely tend to exhibit more manners and decorum at functions. </i>

I display very good manners when I'm out in public, and I hardly ever dress up.

Patrick, there's a huge difference between what one is wearing (e. g. jeans or sneakers in a fancy resturant) and what one is doing (talking loudly on a cell phone in the same restaurant). The latter invades other people's &quot;space&quot;; the former just invades their mindset. If I exhibit good manners, and don't invade anyone's space, I fail to see how it's their business how I'm dressed. (P.S. Being dressed in dressy clothes doesn't mean being dressed attractively -- I'd personally rather see someone in lovely casual clothes than ugly dressy clothes).

I do agree with TxTravelPro - no toes and no armpits (I have a personal &quot;thing&quot; against men in tank tops).

I understand that people don't care to &quot;dress for others&quot;, but I just think it's really ridiculous to go to a very nice restaurant in the same clothing one might wear to Cosco or clean out the garage.

What to wear comes up all the time on the travel forums. I think most people just want to be assured that they can get away with whatever they have in mind.

And, I don't believe the &quot;comfortable&quot; excuse. It's possible to be &quot;comfortable&quot; in better looking attire, especially shoes.

The French Laundry required, when we went there for an evening meal, jackets for men. It was a warm evening, so we arrive in jackets and immediatly take them off to drape them over the back of the seat. Does that make sense?

Yes.

I grew up wearing coat and tie to school every day, for any church service and,it seemed, any occasion that was celebrated indoors. In HS detention was handed out for the grievous infraction of wearing a tie deemed not in good taste. In the military, other than during tactical training or operations, I wore class A's or civilian suit and tie on duty. (Let's not talk about the white polyester leisure suit- it WAS the 70's)
When I moved from DC to San Antonio my SA friends sat and chatted as I unpacked. As I took a handful, maybe a dozen or so, of ties out of a bag one of the friends asked &quot;What's that?&quot; &quot;Ties&quot;, I replied. &quot;Yes, I know they are ties, but why would anyone need so many?&quot; At that moment I knew I would love living in SA.

I live in S. CA where casual has been in for years but I agree it is getting too casual. I have been to many weddings and funerals lately where many attendees look like they are going to work on their lawn or cars. I find the women do a better job of dressing appropriately at these events and I wonder how some of these couples could even be together - do they realize they are going to the same event? I also find many of the people working in the stores are so casual that I can't even tell who is working there and who is shopping. I do think the East Coast is dressier than here.

Someone comapred loud talking and cell phones to dressing comfortably. And that your dress is for the benefit of all.

So are you suggesting, I take a survey of the other diners to determine if I am dressed correctly? Sir, does this tie match my suit or the draperies? No, I guess I should I leave.

To me wearing expensive clothing and jewelry, scream look at me I have money. I hope they do not sit next to me. Ostentatious behavior is a true sign of poor breeding. In fact, nobilty were once beheaded for such offenses.

Conformity is a moving target.

I Live in a country where people don't even dress up for a funeral (really - they go in jeans or whatever they normally would wear), or for weddings for the most part.
I enjoy the odd occasion to get get dolled up and feminine, with my smart suited and booted man by my side.
But if I go to a restaurant and the folks at the next table are wearing jeans I don't object. I am there for the company at my table and for the food.
I feel the same in a way about concerts and plays - at least people are going to these things. If you put a dress code in place it will put a lot of (younger?) people off going, which would be a shame.

hmmmm &quot;dressing down&quot;..perhaps the ultimate definition of &quot;hip&quot; for some

No, Audchamp, someone didn't &quot;compare&quot; dress to talking on cell phones&quot;. &quot;Someone&quot; merely pointed out that when you said you don't do things for the benefit of other diners you were WRONG. At least this someone HOPES you were wrong, as I hope that you DO lower your voice, turn off your cell phone, or don't talk loudly on it. Those things you ARE doing for the benefit of others. Just pointing that out. So if some people do have concerns for other diners, then they might consider not making other diners in a really fine and expensive restaurant uncomfortable by sitting near them unshowered or in ratty clothes, looking like they belonged participating in an athletic event or at a picnic. If you don't care to, that's fine. That's your privilege. Just as you can choose not to lower your voice or show manners at all when in a public place.

Is that any clearer?

Is this the problem?
&quot;<i>To me wearing expensive clothing and jewelry, scream look at me I have money. I hope they do not sit next to me. Ostentatious behavior is a true sign of poor breeding. In fact, nobilty were once beheaded for such offenses.</i>
Do some people see getting dressed in clothes other than a tee and jeans , wearing &quot;expensive clothes&quot;? Unless of course they are Seven jeans or something like that lol...

I think the casual trend in the US did get a little carried away. I have a friend whose husband wears a suit to work every day, it feels normal to him to wear one out to a nice restaurant .. My son has to wear them, ( he, like Seamus grew up wearing them in schoold too) so he loves his tee shirts and jeans, but adapts to the occasion...a friend in Fl looks horrified when he is told he has to wear a suit..
So I guess it all really boils down to an idividuals comfort levels and what they are used to.
Not what they can afford.

Ladies are lucky, we all like to dress up :)

Eating asparagus with one's fingers is perfectly acceptable, unless it is heavily buttered or sauced. Taking it off someone else's plate with one's fingers is not. The woman should have moved it to her own plate with her fork and knife, then used her fingers, always assuming that you find it acceptable to share food in a restaurant. In many countries, they do not.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why the dress or behavior of someone else could have the slightest impact on my enjoyment of a meal, concert or any other event.

I dress the way that makes me comfortable, which is probably slightly more formal than the norm, but certainly not like I did when I was in the business world and &quot;Dressed to impress&quot;.

As long as they are not taking food from my plate, I could not care less if they used hands or feet for that matter, to take from theirs.

&quot;Ladies are lucky, we all like to dress up.&quot;

Oh, Scarlett, how quickly you forget! I know you used to live in Florida. Surely you used to see many women who clearly did not like to &quot;dress up&quot;. Sometimes they are far worse than the men!

&lt;&lt;&quot;But if I go to a restaurant and the folks at the next table are wearing jeans I don't object. I am there for the company at my table and for the food.&quot;&gt;&gt;

hetis,
That's exactly how I feel.
I dress for DH or whomever I'm dining with. We may even go as far as asking each other what they're wearing to be on the same page when going with a group.

Part of the ritual (if you will) with DH is to not see each other until dressed and ready to leave so that we can enjoy seeing what we've done to ourselves.

Guess we make a big deal out of things like talking about the place we got the necklace that I may be wearing and obsessing about the food and wine, etc.

If someone walks by who's amazingly attired we may talk about that (or if someone is wearing something hideous, i.e. bolts permanently attached into their neck, etc. we'll gossip),
otherwise we usually don't notice.

As for jeans, if we're going to a hip restaurant, I may wear dress jeans with a stylish blouse and great heels.

It seems some people's defintion of dressing down is restricted to the tone of their argument.

I understand I am an inferior being but I am comfortable and not a slave to the caprice of others.

<i>bolts permanently attached into their neck, etc. we'll gossip), </i>

Oh boy would you have plenty of dinner table discussion if you were in Portland Oregon :D

Just curious. For those who have absolutely no feeling regarding the dress of others --
if YOU were having a wedding -- a huge and very expensive formal one with very expensive catered reception -- and a couple arrived in t-shirts, tattered shorts, and flip flops -- are you honestly saying it wouldn't bother or affect you at all?

Maybe I'm funny, but I would consider it a display of bad manners and lack of respect, just as I'd consider such dress at an expensive restaurant the same thing.

Although I guess from some responses, there's no reason in the world for me to be surprised that some people are not bothered in the least by a total lack of manners or respect.

Scarlett,
Wow, here I thought I was over- dramatizing.
Are those bolts functional or strictly decorative - perhaps they can hang themselves up by the bolts to dry to save towels, LOL.