zhung

Dear experienced travelers,

We, three Malaysian ladies, are contemplating two exciting travel itineraries for a 22-day trip next year and seek your expertise in making the best choice: (
A) Central Europe covering Budapest, Slovenia, Austria-Salzburg & Vienna ,Munich -Black Forest , and Prague, or (B) exploring Scotland and scenic small towns in England near Scotland.

As nature enthusiasts fond of easy hiking and admiring picturesque small towns, we're drawn to unique Western architecture but not particularly keen on museums, planning to visit only a select few. Our accommodation preference is hostels or Airbnb. This will be our first time in these countries, and our initial planning phase has just begun. Also, we're inexperienced in driving on the left side, intending to rely on public transport for Central Europe and considering driving for Scotland.

Our queries for your invaluable insights are:

1. For Central Europe, particularly Slovenia, Hungary, Austria -Salzburg, and Croatia, is it feasible and wise to primarily utilize buses or trains?

2. Could you recommend charming English small towns near Scotland that are worth visiting?

3. In terms of weather conditions, crowds, and scenic views for shorter walks, which month—May or September—would offer more favorable conditions for travel?

4. What would be the optimal timing for booking accommodation and transportation? Is four months in advance considered too late, or should I plan even earlier?

5. In terms of travel expenses, which option tends to be more budget-friendly: Central Europe or Scotland?

We sincerely welcome any advice or recommendations from seasoned travelers or locals to help us decide on the best option.


Regards
Malaysian Wonderers

bilboburgler

trains and buses work well in central Europe.
seat61.com gives some advice
bahn.de is good on timetables and prices
rome2rio offers good planning ideas of alternative routes

Scotland; English towns that might interest include Durham, Berwick-upon-Tweed and possibly Newcastle. Carlisle is not so nice.
You may prefer a small van tour of bits of Scotland from one of the cities.
https://www.hostellingscotland.org.uk/ is a great resource and https://www.yha.org.uk in England

zhung

Dear bilboburgler,

Thank you for your prompt response and the helpful websites you shared. In the event that we decide to travel to Scotland, we'll opt for driving as we are accustomed to driving on the left side. This offers the advantage of exploring beautiful scenic off-beat locations, which is something we enjoy. My apologies for the earlier misunderstanding in my post; it turns out that our inexperience with driving on the left side applies solely to Central Europe. In those regions, we rely on public transport.

Best regards,
Malaysian wonderer

Jean

Maybe it's just me, but I think your CE itinerary is too many destinations too far apart in a 3-week timeframe. You mention 5 cities plus 1 country and 1 region. I would definitely reconsider Budapest. It's an outlier unless you can fly non-stop from there to Ljubljana. The train journey from Budapest to Ljubljana looks to take at least 7.5 hours.

You mention you're drawn to small towns and not much to museums, but your CE itinerary is mostly (big) city-centric. So, what are your sightseeing plans for these cities?

FWIW, we LOVE driving around Scotland. Either late May or September... We didn't find the adjustment to the driving side to be a problem. Just don't distract the driver with a lot of chatter.

Gardyloo

Malaysia drives on the left, like Britain. I'm guessing you meant driving on the right?

It seems to me that the Scottish option comes closer to your aims than the central European one, although there's certainly nothing wrong with the continental Europe plan you've outlined.

With roughly three weeks I think you could design a Scottish experience (including some northern English destinations) that would be very rewarding and comfortable. I'd probably opt for May over September inasmuch as schools will still be in session, reducing the risk of accommodation shortages in smaller locations. But honestly, either time frame would be fine - flowering landscapes in May, autumn foliage in September - both fabulous in Scotland.

I'd start by suggesting you consider some "loop" drives lasting between, say, 3 and 5 days that would enable you to see some of the amazing variety available in the region. Of course, this is just one option; you could easily string some destinations together in a more linear fashion, but we don't know your travel style - fast or slow paced, etc.

But here are some "loops" that might be worth considering. Google the locations listed and/or use Undiscovered Scotland, a very valuable resource.

1. Scottish and English North Sea coast. Map - https://maps.app.goo.gl/citJQhx3519N4jc59

Starting and ending in Edinburgh, this route takes you east and south along the North Sea coast to and over the English border. Along the way you'll pass through picturesque East Lothian villages like North Berwick and Dunbar, past the impressive ruins of Tantallon Castle, and through the tiny but lovely little town of St. Abbs, used in a couple of "Avengers" films. You'd then cross the English border at Berwick-on-Tweed, and proceed to the Holy Isle of Lindisfarne. This island village, reached only at low tide, is hugely historic - cradle of Christianity in the north of England - and very atmospheric.

Back on the mainland, the next town is Bamburgh, home of one of the most impressive castles along this castle-crowded coastline (view from both the village and beach sides.) Then from Seahouses, another pretty waterfront village down the road, you can take an excursion to the Farne Islands, home (especially in May) to thousands of puffins as well as many other sea bird species, seals and the like.


The next stop is Alnwick (pronounced "ann-ick") which is the home of Alnwick Castle, seat of the Dukes of Northumberland. The castle was used extensively in the "Harry Potter" movies, and is one of the biggest occupied castles in Britain. It's also very spectacular.

You'd return via the lovely and lonely Lammermuir Hills, perhaps with a stop at the Black Bull pub in Etal, the northernmost thatched pub in England. The next stop would be the pretty East Lothian village of Gifford, an hour's drive or so from Edinburgh.

2. Glen Coe, Argyll, Mull, Iona and Staffa. Map - https://maps.app.goo.gl/CU6jjFzEh562G6CfA

This longish loop out to the Western Highlands and Inner Hebrides is something of a "Highlands-in-a-nutshell" route. It includes spectacular Glen Etive and adjacent Glen Coe, then on to the Isle of Mull. Mull, second in size to the Isle of Skye, possesses everything one comes to expect of Highland scenery and culture - picturesque Tobermory, mountains, lochs, white sand beaches, whisky distilleries, prehistoric sites, waterfalls.. There are many, many hiking options all around the island.

From Fionnphort at Mull's southwest corner, you can take a passenger vessel excursion that calls at Iona, birthplace of Christianity in Scotland, and the island of Staffs, home to amazing Fingall's Cave and also home (in May) to more puffins and other sea birds. You can also visit Mull, Iona and Staffa all in one day from Oban, if pressed for time, but IMO Mull is worthy of a couple of days on its own.


Returning to Edinburgh or Glasgow from Oban, you can stop at the tiny village of Kilmartin, which sits overlooking Kilmartin Glen, the site of hundreds of prehistoric monuments - stone circles, standing stones, burial cairns - and later the pretty village of Inveraray, home of Inveraray Castle, seat of Clan Campbell. The castle has been used in a number of movies and TV series including Downton Abbey.

3. Fife, Angus, Aberdeenshire and Perthshire Highlands. Map - https://maps.app.goo.gl/gnpQJHYsEU1oD9vs6

This loop includes the lovely and very historic village of Falkland, home of a royal palace (and fabulous gardens) with Mary Queen of Scots associations, then out to the Fife coast and the "East Neuk" fishing villages of Anstruther and Crail. You'd then head north through iconic St. Andrws and over the River Tay and through Dundee to Arbroath, an historic fishing port on the North Sea (home of Arbroath smokies, a popular dried fish dish.) You'd then follow the Angus coast north to Dunnottar Castle overlooking the ocean, then inland through the beautiful "Royal Deeside" castle country to Balmoral and Braemar.

The return south would include more wonderful Highland scenery in the Perthshire Highlands, then a stop I'd recommend in the tiny and lovely village of Fortingall at the mouth of Glen Lyon, which gets many votes as one of the loveliest glens in Scotland. The yew tree in the Fortingall churchyard is ostensibly the oldest living thing in Europe, and the adjacent Fortingall Hotel is simply marvelous. A drive up Glen Lyon is a must-do if you're in this area. You could stop for one of your easy but rewarding hikes at the so-called Roman Bridge (it isn't that old) a couple of km up the valley from Fortingall.


This is a few possible excursions in Scotland that might meet your criteria. There are, of course, many, many more, but hopefully this will get you thinking. Happy planning!

janisj

I don't have time to read all of Gardyloo's response just now but he typically gives terrific advice. In your case -- I'd probably pick Scotland and maybe a bit of northern England. Eastern/Central Europe can be a little less expensive but Scotland is just an amazing place for all of your wish list. I'll post more later when I have a bit of time . . .

zhung

@Jean Thank you for your prompt response. I completely agree that three weeks might not suffice for exploring all the places we have in mind across Central Europe. After some thought, we've decided to focus on a more condensed itinerary, which includes Germany (Black Forest & Munich), Austria (Salzburg & Vienna), Slovenia and Prague.Admittedly, we initially relied on the itinerary provided in the travel agent's brochure . However, we realize the need for further research and planning. Your guidance and the assistance we've received from everyone have been incredibly valuable, and we're sincerely grateful for all the advice.

On another note, I must apologize for the error in my previous message regarding driving. Our inexperience lies in driving on the right side rather than the left. Thank you for your understanding.

zhung

Thank you Gardyloo for providing such valuable and detailed information. I must clarify that our inexperience lies in driving on the right side, not the left. I apologize for any confusion caused. Your comprehensive travel recommendations have left quite an impression on me. Once again, thank you.

We will need some time to thoroughly study and conduct further research on your suggestions. You mentioned May, and I understand that schools are typically in session during that time. Does September indicate that schools are closed for holidays?

Thank you for your patience and assistance.

zhung

janisj Thank you for your quick response. I'm confident that with the guidance from experienced travelers like yourself, along with local insights, combined with my diligent research, I'll be able to make the most of my long-awaited post-Covid trip! However, I'm still deciding between May or September for my travels due to time constraints.

Warm regards,

Malaysian Wanderer

mbrevitas

The Black forest and Munich are not particularly close to each other: about 250 km, or as far as from Edinburgh to Portree on the isle of Skye in Scotland. More generally, the area between the Black Forest and Vienna and between Slovenia and Prague is still relatively vast. Visiting the places you mention there in three weeks is certainly easily doable, but it will be a rather different experience than visiting Scotland and the area just across the border in England in that time frame: you'll be skipping around bypassing interesting attractions and regions, instead of seeing almost everywhere there is to see in mainland Scotland (I'm exaggerating, but not by much). A closer Central European alternative to the Scottish itinerary would be to focus only on the eastern Alps, setting aside Prague and the Black Forest and maybe finding the time for the wider Tyrol (including part of the Dolomites), given you like hiking and picturesque towns.

As for recommendations in northernmost England close to the Scottish border, consider Berwick, Lindisfarne, Bamburgh, Alnwick, and maybe Kielder and its Forest farther inland. Farther south in northern England there are a lot more places worth seeing (Newcastle, Hadrian's Wall, Durham and the Weardale, the whole of the Lake District, the whole of the North York Moors and its coast), but then it's hard to fit it all in 3 weeks with Scotland.

janisj

Either May or September would be good for Scotland. Weather could be great or decent or awful - or all three - no matter the month. If you do go in May, try to go in the middle of the month avoiding the first and last weekends. Both are Bank Holidays so things will be crowded and accommodations will cost more (sometimes a LOT more). But the middle three weeks of May are 'low season' so a lot smaller crowds and cheaper hotels/B&Bs, etc.

Travel_Nerd

I am inclined to agree with this. OP, since you have stated in one of your replies that you may plan on focusing on Central Europe vs. Scotland, there are things you now need to consider:

What airport to fly into? And what airport to fly home from? Do not do RT for this plan, instead fly multicity.

What are the distances between points? How many stops or train changes? Or if driving, do you need to have a plan to bring a rental car over the border, if applicable. If driving, automatically add another 60 minutes (or more) whatever the search engine says for traffic, getting lost, etc.

And what to see in each destination? This will determine how many nights you need. And for each destination, remember that traveling between points males you lose time. So, if you only have 2 nights in a town/city, you really only have 1 day for sightseeing, 3 nights is 2 days sightseeing, etc.

For all that you have listed in your modified three week plan for Central Europe, you have far too much listed for your three weeks still
I am someone who can travel relatively quicker than others on here, and your initial itinerary, like what was mentioned up thread, is too much and covering a large amount of distance. That three weeks gets old quickly darting from town to town.

EDIT: Remember that travel brochures are often designed with a bus tour in mind. And, much of the plans are optimistic. And there are usually a lot of "flybys" just for photo stops, not actual experiencing. To me, even with your modifications, you have outliers, especially Slovenia (where in Slovenia?!) and perhaps Prague. Prague makes better sense, if you include points farther east, such as Dresden, but not necessarily Black Forest as Mrbrev mentioned. So you need to determine what makes sense and what exactly your travel goals are. And throw away the brochure! 😉