Hello everyone. I have had a lot of trouble finding anything relating to this very specific niche of traveling. There's so much information out there (and I've never really traveled before) so it's been mostly information overload for me...so I'm hoping I can get some tips/ideas to help me narrow things down. I love cars/motorsports (and I'm a racer myself) so I want to travel to Europe to visit some bucket list motorsports things. The idea I have for now that seems do-able based on some research is visiting the following in no particular order (although listed based on seemingly convenient locations)

1) Munich - BMW Museum
2) Stuttgart - Porsche/Mercedes Benz Museum
3) Koln/Near Cologne - Toyota GmbH Motorsports Center
4) Nurburgring Nordschleife (Adenau?)
5) Spa Francorchamps (Stavelot, Belgium) --> Yes, I know it's not Germany but the majority of this trip is in Germany

Of course, along with these activities, I'd like to do normal "tourist" type stuff, like visit a real Beer Garden/Biergarten and visit some castles that are not too out of the way. Would renting a car be the best option here? I don't mind driving a lot and I hear Germany/Belgium are not too bad to drive in. The span of this trip would be about 2 weeks. The main "events" would be driving on Nurburgring and Spa Francorchamps. Which would be the cheapest time/way to visit all of these places? Should I start in Munich, or start near Belgium? I particularly want to go between June and September as that is the best season for these kinds of things (driving events).

You cannot drive Spa in a hire car. They have only a limited number of public driving days and you must be in a private
vehicle and sign a waiver.
http://www.spa-francorchamps.be/en

I assume the same is true at Nurburgring.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm mostly worried about travel in between the cities etc and if there are any tips to save money by traveling in between.

You can rent a car AT Nürburgring to drive the Nürburgring yourself.
It's insured for exactly that purpose, but with a deductible.
Or you use one of the race taxis - but you'd only be in the co-pilot seat.

If you rent in Belgium and drop off in Germany (or v.v.) you will probably be hit with a substantial penalty fee. But maybe the fee is not steep, so it's worth to check the fineprint.
To avoid any fee, I'd try to visit Spa with public transport (no clue if that's easy to do) and also do the cross-border trip to/from Germany by train. And rent from/to first major city in Germany.
One-way rentals within Germany usually do not incur any extra fees.

I haven't heard anything about the Toyota Motorsports Center in Cologne, so not sure if it's worth the stopover.

I'm not sure if driving the whole trip/itinerary is that much fun.
The shortest route from Nürburgring to Stuttgart and to Munich would take you via A5 and A8. Both are very crowded major arteries, so don't expect to zoom along the Autobahn at 250kph.

I'd probably just rent a car to do the Nürburgring-Stuttgart (or v.v.) leg and take the train from Stuttgart to Munich.
From the Eifel mountains which are home to the Nürburgring you can take either the straight shot South to Stuttgart or drive the Mosel valley (a detour), or go into Alsace (also a detour, but if I remember correctly there is one major important car museum in or near Colmar or Mulhouse.. or Strasbourg)

Though normally to go between big cities trains are best as cars are limited once in cities but tooling down Germany's autobahns many (but not all - especially in congested areas) still do not have any speed limit so in your case get a souped up car. Or how about motorcycle?

But the cheapest for a solo person by far I believe would be to take trains between most of those those places - to consider trains check www.bahn.de/en - German Railways web site and offers from 19 and 29 euros between any two cities available if you book far enough in advance to get them as they are limited in number and sell out fast. Other good rail sites and other things a tourist may be interested in- www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

But with you penchant for fast driving perhaps the German autobahns are unique in Europe I believe for many not having any speed limit. If you're into camping at all cities inevitably have camps on their periphery with excellent transportation to city centers. German cities, thanks to war damage, however have broader streets and more thoroughfares than in many countries - Berlin would be one to check out.

go in late Sept and experience























Go in mid to late September and experience Octoberfest in Munich and all year the famous Haufbrhaus in Munich and in nice weather the popular Chinese Pagoda outdoor beer gardens in Munich's Englischer Gardens. You can also surfboard in the gardens too.

Or go in August and watch the F1 at Spa.

You used to be able to drive a section of the track at Spa which was public roads. Sadly that is no longer the case.

You can get to the track by train/bus from Brussels.

We're considering going to Spa for the F1 in August, so I will follow this thread with interest! Seeing the USGP in Austin a couple of months ago was inspiring.

I guess it's best to travel light if we're going to rely on trains a lot, right? Never traveled in Europe (or really used public transportation much).

Ryan -why would you not want to drive -costs may be a factor but otherwise why miss that thrill - don't mean you could not take trains between the three big German cities and rent car for at least a few days and tool those autobahns.

Trains yes pack light - lots of unanticipated walking and stairs and narrow train corridors to navigate and bags to store once aboard.

Have only one large piece of luggage and IMO definitely have wheels on it and a small day pack.

I often leave my large pack in a train-station locker when arriving and put essentials in small bag to take to hotel and retrieve heavy bag just before boarding train on way out. All German stations have luggage storage.

But maybe mix cars and trains?

And for everything you need to know about trains check the websites I gave in a post above - they tell it all.

Actually, I wouldn't mind driving. I regularly drive 2-6 hours to go to all of the various race tracks where I'm at, but it seemed like it wasn't recommended. Plus it could be more fun if we rent a car that is interesting.

Thanks for all the advice guys!

You will have more fun driving than sitting on trains. Many are opposite but with your interests get a fast car and take off. You do not even have to go into those large cities centers to hit the car places you list.

German and Belgian autobahns also are free still I believe - unlike many countries that charge steep tolls.

But it can also be thrilling to drive side roads say in mountainous areas like Black Forest or Bavarian Alps - for castles take the Castle Road between Rothenburg and Heidelberg.

but it seemed like it wasn't recommended>

Again that's for normal tourists just going to see those large cities not for you who is going to places not in city centers and except Munich I would not linger much in those cities which in Cologne's case has one major sight - the world-famous Gothic cathedral - again many hotels/motels on periphery to stay at and take trains or trams into city centres.

For a sweet drive from Stuttgart to Spa area consider driving thru the Rhine Gorge (south of Kolbenz) and up the Mosel Valley - one of Europe's most awesomely scenic drives - to Luxembourg - nice for a brief stop and onto Spa. then loop back thru Netherlands to Aachen - ancient historic city also a spa - to Cologne.

I have in another life driven for years on German autobahns and know the rules of the road - the fast lane is for super fast cars - dare 'clog' it up and get wrath of drivers - I drove big old luggage vans and once got caught in fast lane whilst passing an even slower vehicle and took too long - one lorry driver flashed a big knife at me as he finally passed me.

In your case I think the fast lane will be more your cup of tea.

Thanks for all the additional info. What rental companies do you recommend using in this region? I get mixed reviews all over the internet but I'm sure that this is more region dependent rather than world wide. Sixt seems to have really cheap prices for the cars they have. Any other options?

AutoEurope seems favorite of Fodorites - I have no clue but suggest you make a separate post with that in the title and you'll get lots of input but few of those experts will see this buried here.

Hi Ryan, as a fellow enthusiast, I feel your pain. I'm not a racer (racing is wheel to wheel imho), but I do have a fun canyon/cone carver. Since I've been to museums/factories/tracks/events in several countries, maybe I can provide some good info for your adventure. I was just at one of your destinations, the Ring, earlier this year during their 24 hr event.

Flights: You didn't mention your flights, but you need to think about it. With your proposed sites, you might be better served flying an open jaw (different arrival and departure locations) itinerary. However, you may find the open jaw more expensive than using the same airport in/out. Also, the flight itinerary may affect your rental car options. For example, you may not be able to drop a car in Brussels that you rented in Munich without a drop fee (after rereading the thread, I see that Cowboy1968 mentioned this possibility, too).

I fly in/out Frankfurt several times a year, so I know it well. It is sort of mid-way between your destinations, but using it would mean a lot of back-tracking for you.

Public Transportation: While based in London once, I attended an event at Silverstone Circuit by riding a train, then a bus and walking the remainder. This takes some time and effort to figure out how to do it. Station-to-station works great, but then the train stations are not where you want to be, so more time and effort to get to your final
destination. My main use of trains in Germany are the S-Bahns into Frankfurt downtown or, occasionally, to the neighboring, very walkable small cities. I very much prefer to drive if traveling cross-country.

Hire Cars: I am a National user in the USA and their EU partner is now Enterprise. Enterprise provides good service, National rental recognition, but no AA miles. A few years ago, I flew into Barcelona for the WRC Rally de Espana and used Sixt. Their service was fine, but,
to save money, the car I rented was a VW Polo. It's diminutive size made it great for the narrow mountain roads and parking challenges, but I would never pick one for extended Autobahn use.

At Enterprise, my go-to cars are Audi 4s or the Mercedes C-classes, both with turbo diesels. These cars are powerful and stable enough to enjoy Autobahn driving. They also have excellent on-board GPS (which, by the way, you will pay extra for). I just completed a Frankfurt-Monschau-Viersen-Antwerp-Ghent-Zuydcoote-Flanders
Field-Ghent-Brugges-Ghent-Aachen-Frankfurt trip last week in the Merc C and, except for cold, winter rear tires trying to pass the fronts in the wet Eifel mountains, it is a comfortable and capable cruiser. I am so over trying to save $20 by selecting inferior cars and rental companies.

Driving: Aye, here's the rub. Over the three decades I have been driving in the EU, the highway experience has steadily worsened. As Cowboy1968 opines, I don't think your driving would be fun. I know, if you are looking at Google Maps, it doesn't sound like much driving, but
it is not like the USA interstate experience. Sure, there are isolated stretches where I topped 230 km/h in an Audi 4S on a Mr. Blue Sky day, but that is very difficult to do. Let me break it down:

Speed Limits: Although an unlimited Autobahn has been romanticized, it is not so practical now it seems. The most heavily traveled roads like the A3, A5 and A8 are highly regulated. The use of digital sign boards is common, allowing authorities to imposed 120-130 km/h limits based of conditions such as weather or traffic. In neighboring countries, I think The Netherlands's max speed was 130 km/h and Belgium's was 120 km/h for cars. Speed enforcement is done with unmanned camera radars called flashers which can be permanently mounted over the road, in the median or on a portable tripod on the roadside.

Construction: Just as experienced in the USA, never ending construction is another bottleneck. Much of the road repair seems to be attempted during the summer months. Traffic lanes are slowed to 60 km/h and typically diverted around the lanes under repair. Where the USA seems
to have one continuous construction zone that goes for miles without anyone in sight, the German construction zones seem shorter to me. Many of the German zones are so close together that as soon as you accelerate from one, the next is slowing you down, then accelerate again, then slow
down, etc.

Traffic: Trucks. Trucks. Trucks. Generally speaking, trucks are limited to below 100 km/h and will be limited to the right lane of two or the left two of three or more. The volume of trucks during the work week insures the truck lane is unusable except for merging on/off the highway. Truck volume will be lower on the weekend days. Essentially, subtract at least one lane for commercial traffic during the week. That leaves one lane for the general population and the fast cars; therefore,
there is no fast traffic.

Another thing to remember about summer driving is the vacation trips. All Germany goes on vacation in August it seems, and, that, along with the folks from the north passing through towards the Mediterranean, insures heavy summer traffic volumes. Of course, the camping trailers
also come out in the summer and they are limited to 100 km/h, too.

Although the theory is that the fast cars use the leftmost lane, you still see the clueless reading the phone or small cars barely moving faster than the lanes to the right. I find the traffic at speed very nerve wracking because of people popping out in front of you. That's why those Porsches have the ceramic brakes! I drove from Frankfurt to Austria this summer and I will never do that again; the A5 was absolutely terrible. And to make matters worse, the Germany/Austria border has a 10 km/h rolling checkpoint that really backed up the
traffic. But, I digress.

In summary, depending on the car and conditions, I would limit myself to about a straight-road max of 140 km/h in the rain and under 195 km/h in dry, light traffic with the Sport+ mode engaged with the two cars I mentioned above. I am not trying to talk you out of driving - just trying to help you think realistically about the trip. I would still
grit my teeth and drive your trip.

Sightseeing: Germany is full of castles, so it not that difficult to find one or two to visit. As a general rule, I avoid the Rhine River venues in the summer due to the traffic-choked roads like the B42 (northbound) and B9 (southbound). I drove B42 to Koblenz and back on B9
to Frankfurt early this year and B42 was completely closed for construction. However, if you want to see one Rhine castle, I suggest Marksburg. It is a well-preserved and interesting castle with a direct overlook of the Rhine. There is an English tour, too.

As others have suggested, the Mosel River valley is a suitable Rhine alternative. I actually prefer it to the Rhine in the summer; it is not as crowded. My favorite Mosel region castle is the Burg Eltz. Drive to Landhotel Ringelsteiner Mühle (Google Maps knows it), park there and
walk through the woods along the Elzbach River to Burg Eltz. The castle itself is still a residence and an unmolested example of German castles (never sacked by the French). They have an English tour and a small museum. There are two food services and I like to have lunch on their patio before walking back to the car. If you don't dine at the castle, the Ringelsteiner has a dining room and also a fresh supply of pies and cakes to complete your hike.

Timing: My initial thought after reading your initial post was the time you had allowed seemed too short. If on-track experiences are the priority (and I totally agree with that!), then you have to plan around those. I have not been to Spa, but my thought is the Ring does not do
those all the time - that might have changed since. Remember there is no 7-11 on every corner nor motel at every exit. Allow more time than you see in Google Maps to have a pleasant trip.

https://www.audi.com/foren/en/audi-f...ngolstadt.html

We loved the BMW tour. The emu feathers were amazing and the robotics. I love BMW motorbikes so that was also fun to see the stunt drivers riding up and down the steps. We were just in Stuttgart but did the festival instead of the Mercedes tour.
I enjoy the back roads of Germany. Pay close attention to drops in speed if you do drive. Also, save your last gas receipt when you fill before returning. If the machine doesn't spit one out get one from inside. If you decide to pass do it and get over even if you think you are going fast. My husband was so tired one trip he allowed me to drive from Frankfurt to Belguim. He is a control freak. Anyway, the trains are not expensive and we sometimes

In response to VolCrew: (awesome post btw, very helpful)
- Haha, agreed. I don't like to sound snobbish so I never mention things like that, but the only form of car racing is wheel to wheel for me, and cars aren't "race cars" unless they have been in wheel to wheel competition
- Yeah, upon reading theses posts, I might try to arrive in Brussels (cheap tickets) and then take public transportation to Spa Francorchamps since that is one of the main attractions of this trip. Then I would take public transportation to an airport in Germany near Nurburgring (either Cologne or Frankfurt I believe) then rent a car from there, which would eventually be dropped off in Munich to avoid the charges. I was going to go with the Spa Francorchamps PDE or RSR Track Day, and a PDE ticket for Nurburgring since trying to base the vacation off two specific track days would be way too tough. I've been in contact with RSR for this reason.
- Sounds good regarding the rentals. I think I might splurge on a more "premium car" myself since it will be split between me and my buddy and it would be nice to see what its like to drive in a higher end car for long distances.
- Driving long and in traffic still doesn't phase me. I'm in the Northeast region of the USA (particular the tri state area) where I eat traffic for breakfast and dinner constantly. My regular work commute used to be 1.5 hours one way, and I have to commute quite far to make it to all of the race tracks around this region (2-8 Hours)
- Thank you for the sight seeing recommendations!
- The timing I plan is probably peak season for track stuff, but I'm flexible regarding all of the summer months. Still not sure when I should go based on all of the feedback given, but I heard mid September could be good too because things are dying down and it will go into October which is good for drinking/beer related stuff.

VolCrew: (awesome post btw, very helpful)>

Totally awesome -wow!

Then I would take public transportation to an airport in Germany near Nurburgring (either Cologne or Frankfurt I believe) then rent a car from there>

Why go to an airport to rent a car if taking trains to the airport?