Zeppole, that is precisely how I feel. Although I have not lived in Italy I have lived in Scotland and found my life to be far richer than it is here (and I have far more financially than I did then). I have been to Italy many times and love it, too. The UK is expensive generally speaking but it depends on your lifestyle as well.

I find my husband and I can live with a lot less than many people. We really enjoy the simple (and thankfully for the most part inexpensive!) things and try not to take them for granted. No debt, no mortgage, etc. We would also live simply in Europe. But travel like crazy and really LIVE Europe.

We want to move to Europe for so many reasons - too many to list! :)

ttt

I don't know if those were intended to be political comments about leaving the US and loving Obama, but it makes me wonder what political benefits or freedoms one would gain by moving from the US to Europe.

SuzieC:

You obviously need qualified advice about your questions. But two points you should consider:

1. As a general rule, a citizen of an EU country has a right to live anywhere in the EU, and bring his /her spouse or partner for ever. In some cases, the status of the spouse/partner is actually EASIER in a third country

2. By living fulltime in France, you're almost certainly subject to French tax laws. These include wealth tax - both on your worldwide assets (including, say, a holiday home in the US) and in some cases on your pension pot, or the capitalised value of some pensions. Like any tax, it's ony a nuisance if you're not getting value for it. And most residents of France, of course, get great value for their taxes

Easy, the USA Peace Corps has openings in, Bulgaria, Moldovia, Romania and Macedonia. Assignments are for two years. There is plenty of time to visit other European countries and decide about staying. Basic costs are taken care of...

dwzemens,

I live on the Golfo Paradiso in Liguria. They don't call it paradise for nothing:

http://tinyurl.com/5w8jsm

I'll be in touch over at comcast.

dlb,

My husband started talking about retirement and we started batting around places in the US.

On a flight to Italy, I became rather ill from eating the airplane food, and when I landed in Milano, I had a riotous stomach. My husband, however, was starving, so I went with him to a very sweet vegetarian restaurant, that is really inside a grocery store, not far from the Duomo.

My husband ordered up a feast for himself, but we explained to the owner that I didn't really feel well, so I wasn't going to eat, but he made me gnocchi with pumpkin sauce (this was in December) and gave me a glass of wine.

I instantly felt better. I went back to the hotel and took a nap. When I woke up, I suggested to my husband that when he retired, we should move to Italy.

He thought it was a great idea!

But first we thought we should look at other places in Europe, so for a few years, every vacation we took, we went to Europe, checked out various locales, but in the end, we just felt we'd be happiest in Italy, living by the sea.

Since living in Italy, I have come to appreciate that golden rule of Italian living: if you're stomach isn't happy, you can't be happy. I don't eat a lot in Italy, but I eat well, and there is actually more wisdom in eating well than one might imagine. I find I need less of other things. But really -- what more could I ask for?

This is very timely. Gadgetman and I are moving to southwest France (house here is on the market) and we are house-hunting in France, round two, in August.

He is a UK and US citizen; I'm a US citizen. Here's what we've learned about healthcare: France has clamped down because so many pre-retirement age EU citizens were moving to France, taking early retirement, and expecting free health care. While most EU citizens already living in France before the ruling are grandfathered in, new EU immigrants are not covered until they are 65 or are employed.

However, IF you are under 65 and immigrate directly from the UK, you will have access to the French health care system for up to (I think) 3 years, paid by the UK. I would guess there are similar arrangements for other countries. Unfortunately, to qualify you have to have been a resident of the UK prior to moving to France and Gadgetman has lived in the US for 9 years.

This is obviously a very simplistic explanation and maybe someone would like to elaborate. I would more than welcome being corrected if I have it wrong. My info is based on several phone conversations with the National Health folks in Newcastle as well as the usual web site searches.

To apply for permanent residency in France the main criteria you must meet are ability to support yourself (savings, investments, social security, pensions or employment) and private health coverage if under 65 and unemployed. We plan to purchase a very high-deductible catastrophic health insurance plan and pay-as-you-go for doctors' visits and prescriptions, which are fairly reasonable in France.

Here we are covered by a private early retirement health care plan from our corporate jobs which is hardly inexpensive, about $6,000 a year(total for both of us)for premiums and co-pays. I'm told compared to most pre-65 US retirees that we have a good plan. It's of course worthless in France.

We are moving for the weather, the lifestyle, the wine, the food and a key factor, proximity to children who live in the UK. We thought about moving back to the UK, but honestly can get so much more house for our money in France and the kids are only a 90-minute flight away.

We know it won't be a bed of roses and I will miss some things, but not many. And, I had to laugh about not having access to English-language books and movies--there are so many Brits, Aussies, and US folks in France now that almost every village has a second-hand English language book exchange or similar. Plus, www.play.com offers free shipping from UK to France.

In a classic case of reverse snobbery, my husband didn't like one village he looked at in May because he only heard English spoken in the cafes!

Zeppole,

My husband and I were thinking Italy, as well. My ancestry is Italian and when we visited the first time, I felt as though I had "come home." I whole-heartedly agree with the Italian notion of the happy stomach being key to a happy life. I guess we will just need to start looking at places to live and make a commitment to do it. From a legal standpoint, how does one get started?

Contact the Italian consulate.

Zeppole:
What are the transportation links like in your area? My husband and I are looking for a potential 'base' for a trip to Italy - where we would not need a car.

You don't need a car in almost all of Italy, unless you want to tour small towns in the Tuscan countryside -- and even there you can sometimes get by with buses.

Bologna and its surrounding towns are especially good for rail transport to a variety of fantastic sights.

I am in Liguria, where the train line runs up and down the coast, from Rome to France.

But it's better to figure out what you want to see in Italy, and then pick your "base." If you don't want to stay in a city, there is usually a nice spot not far from a major town with a train station that can take you to the major sights while being a very nice place to be in its own right.

Thank you Logos and Flanneruk for taking the time to answer.
I encouraged to look into this. Maybe not this year, but we could sell our homes (he has one and I have one that I present rent out); he probably could still work as an SAP consultant even though he's 66 and we could be encouraged to purchase a place. I would learn to make cheese! Maybe Bavaria...I could live there, if he'd move back to Germany.


(I didn't mean to hi-jack Nomad's post)

I would definitely move to Paris! Nothing glamorous in my decision, just love old world charm!

We've been in the UK for almost 11 months and have loved almost every minute of it. So far, the shine hasn't worn off yet -- but I have heard that year 2 of expat life is harder than year 1 so we're still holding our breath!

This is an interesting thread in that most posts refer to retiring in Europe. We're younger than 30 so that's a few years out for us. I intend to live all around the world during our working years but ideally I want to "retire" at "home" which is the Pacific Northwest. We still plan on traveling of course. But once my son grows up and has babies of his own I can't imagine moving away from him or them! The strange thing will be that the PNW won't feel like home to him. I can't wait to see what "home" is for him. So I guess wherever they go, we go!

The posters who have lived in Europe have made a lot of good points, about location, vocation, friendship, and civic involvement. But I encourage anyone who wants to do this (and I haven't got the oommpphh) to do so. You never know until you try....Carpe Diem.

By living fulltime in France, you're almost certainly subject to French tax laws. These include wealth tax - both on your worldwide assets (including, say, a holiday home in the US) and in some cases on your pension pot, or the capitalised value of some pensions".

You are confusing wealth tax (ISF) and impôt sur le revenu (IRS).
Wealth tax applies only if your assets exceed €760,000.
If you are liable to ISF, own a house in the US and pay the relevant taxes in the US, you do not have to pay twice!

Impôt sur le revenu is based on your yearly income, whether you are working or retired.

You also have to pay property taxes (taxe foncière) if you own a house or a piece of land and "taxe d'habitation" whether you are the owner or the tenant of a house or a flat.

semiramis: Which six months? :)

Muskoka:
Just guess! Put it this way the snowbanks next to the driveway were almost as tall as our bungalow this year.

Thx Zeppole

"You are confusing wealth tax (ISF) and impôt sur le revenu (IRS)."

I'm not.

The advice we've been given - which might be flawed, which is why I've stressed she needs to talk to an expert - is that pension pots (the portfolio of assets that generate the income for a pension) are subject to wealth tax if you spend over 180 days a year in France

And that, in addition to income tax on the pension you get, many forms of pension - such as annuities - attract an annual wealth tax on the IMPUTED capital value of the notional asset generating the annual income.

<i>Wealth tax applies only if your assets exceed &euro;760,000.</i>

But, if France considers pension values (or 401(k) balances) as part of the wealth calculation, then surely many US-sourced retirees would have assets exceeding that limit (above and beyond any US house value), and Flanner's concern about the wealth tax remains valid. They are even more valid if part of your plan is to sell your US home to fund your retirement in France.

Regardless of the specifics of the wealth tax, I think the broader lesson one should take away is:

You MUST talk to a qualified international tax specialist if you will become resident in Europe. My US tax return is some 50 pages long. I can't imagine trying to do that on my own. This is particularly true for those with large IRA or 401(k) balances that will fund retirement, as you may not get the same tax advantages on those balances while living in a European country that you would in the US.

Wouldn't move to Europe--all of our friends and family are in the USA and Japan! Friends and family are important to us. However, if finances were not an issue I would not mind spending summers in the Alps--probably the Austrian Alps.

I have thought about this and think that you really have to consider that a big part of the allure of vacationing somewhere is that you're not paying bills, running errands, going to the grocery store, working...you're strolling around without a care in the world, taking it all in.

I would love to move and/or retire to Italy. Really, I love it there. But when I think about how difficult it would be to do on a day to day basis, I just don't think it's practical. For those who want an apartment on Ile St. Louis or a farmhouse in Tuscany...imagine schlepping groceries through the tourists up to your flat? Or driving somewhere (anywhere) that's not within 2 minutes of your house for groceries. I know it's done that way by locals and perhaps I'm too tied to big city living, but I think I'd find day to day there just as frustrating and time-wasting as I find it here.

I think another an important thing to consider is how permanent is the move? If it is permanent then how will you cope if/when one of you dies or suffers from a stroke or some other debilitating illness? How will you feel in an old people's home where you must speak your second language, and where you cannot share youthful memories with your fellow inmates? Where your children cannot visit you monthly or maybe even annually?
These are hard things to contemplate if you are able to retire young but they are things that should be considered. Not everyone lives to be a fit and healthy 90 year old, even in Europe. One of you in a partnership will be left alone at some point.

Given the dollar falling against the Euro as it is (1.60 today!) will you really be able to afford to live in Europe, and pay for health care/nursing care? Given that the European population is ageing fast you cannot take for granted that these things will remain free/affordable for those with a less than perfect record of contributions in Europe, or even for those of us who have always lived here and paid taxes and contributions.

&quot;Too dificult for an American to be truly accepted&quot;

It's the opposite, actually. Now if you come from Russia, Ex-Yugoslavia or Africa, you might have more problems being accepted.

You do not give uo your citizenhip if you move..I have both! Oh and I fdid pack it in and mover over in my late 20's. Yes its harder to go home after many years away and for me its also different as my parents were not born or raised in America but moved there at 18 and 29 respectively. I have family here in ireland and to be homest after 13 yers I do not fit in as well at home in the U.S. and most people do not know I am american born until I tell them I spent most of my life there!

Retiring sounds great though and I often think of getting a place in another country for this time. Its like people gpoing to florida for the wionter in America...I could go to Spain or France or Italy!

Hey everyone...

I made the move and let me tell ya all... it wasn't easy and still 2 years laters, still struggling to adapt. Please, think twice! The hardest part is to settle with a fixed secured job, I think once you have managed this, everything else will be alright, i guess! But to get there is really hard. Unless, you're retired and don't have to worry about this!

@Lavradio,

What did you find to be the most difficult part of the transition?

Where are you located, if I may ask? What is the property cost in your area?

And that, in addition to income tax on the pension you get, many forms of pension - such as annuities - attract an annual wealth tax on the IMPUTED capital value of the notional asset generating the annual income.

The wealth tax is called ISF and doesn't apply to assets under &euro;760,000.
What you are referring to is problably CGS or &quot;contribution sociale g&eacute;n&eacute;ralis&eacute;e&quot;.

100% yes. The only reason that I don't is money. It's a great dream.

Just imagine at least 200 mio americans stuck in Provence. What a great place to live in, the USA would be. :D :D

It is a dream of mine to one day be able to split my time between Europe and my home here in the USA. Of course, I would never rule out the possibility of moving there permanently.

No way! I like being surrounded by people and places that I know and where I am comfortable. I have a beautiful old house, am a few steps from the Ocean and only 45 minutes out of NYC. That being said, I travel quite extensively and love experiencing other cultures. Since there are so many places I haven't been, I rarely go back to the same place twice.

No, I wouldn't. I lived on army posts for seven years (five of them in Heidelberg), and I had a great time. I traveled all over the world, skiied, and partied as well as working. I was at a DOD school and taught wonderful kids. But after a while even a great town like Heidelberg begins to pall.

I was bored with the place and I guess I was homesick for the U.S. I went to California and taught there for many years. I have returned to Europe and especially to Germany many times since then, to continue my study of German at Goethe Institutes, or just to visit favorite cities or cities I hadn't seen before. Ironically, I enjoy Germany much more than I did when I lived there. It's a whole different experience when you're a tourist.

I might like to stay for several months at a time, but I'd miss my big refrigerator, my washer and dryer, my beautiful back yard with all the flowers, my church, my family, the crazy politics...all that American stuff.

There's something special about talking to someone you've known since you were ten, about seeing the neighbor's teenager whose diapers you changed, about meeting kids whose grandfathers you went to elementary school with or a teacher who taught you first year Latin in 9th grade.

I live in a town where I have many connections that go back through most of my life. I wouldn't give up those connections for anything.

Funny, coming from Canada...we love Canada, but cant imagine leaving London (or Europe) to go back. Mind you we are in our early 30's..and both have secure jobs, but we love hte culture, and we are making pounds. So saving pounds, if we ever moved back to N. America we would have double the savings. Now I am a Chartered Accountant ans we save religiously, but we just bought a place and love it here. When we are 60 if we decide to move back our savings (assuming the FX is similar) will be double in Canada.

We love it here!!!

Of course, we would have to fence them in and maybe call the place &quot;Provence-aime-o&quot; :D

Over the past ten years, I have spent about two months each year in Europe, and will do so again next year. However, I am always pleased to return home and realize that I prefer to live in Australia where I fully understand and appreciate the lifestyle.

my dream of living in Provence near friends and heading to Paris for my city fix, will most likely die with me.

Interesting thread. Smiles. My answer is &quot;No&quot;.Personally, I wouldn't move to Europe. I like Europe a lot and have been vacationing there, almost annually, since the early 70s and have even lived there for 11-12 week periods for over a decade of summers. The other 2 decades of vacations there were for a shorter period of time... 8-21 days.
Personally, if I were to move somewhere(part-time though) which I'm seriously considering, I'd move to Southeast Asia, in a heartbeat. Preferably Bangkok. Have been vacationing there, for a decade, of almost annual trips, about twice a year, and rent a serviced apartment when I'm there.
One of my best, American, male friends will be moving to Italy around the first of the year, right outside of Venice.He will be retiring around 10 years early. He bought a condo there a few years ago, from a plan, and has paid it out, so he won't have to worry about that. But, he will have to worry about his retirement money getting a low exchange rate since the dollar has tanked so over the last 3-4 years. His money would go a lot farther if he stayed home. Happy Travels!