Why is it that on this forum the topic that seems most often to degenerate into nastiness or personal attack is when someone asks a question about "appropriate" dress/looking like a tourist/not looking like a tourist/sneakers & shorts/ etc? <BR>We must be hitting nerves on one side or the other, but why that of all topics? Because unlike train schedules or museum passes, <BR>it's more opinion than fact? Because <BR>dress and fashion are so personal? Personal restaurant recommendations don't seem so controversial, for example. <BR>Just wondering...

Very good point Elaine. I think if more attention and emotion was placed on understanding how to be polite and respectful of other cultures, and less on what to wear (except for those folks wanting to wear a Hooters muscle shirt, short shorts, black socks, and flip flops to the Vatican), a lot of people could get on with having a wonderful travel experience.

I think you are right Elaine, in that it seems to be when "opinion" enters the arena, that nastiness may follow. Even when someone states "in my opinion" or IMO, in general, the post (sometimes) appears to be construed by readers to be "attacking" the opposite. <BR> <BR>Unfortunately, often instead of simply stating a rebuttal position, it becomes "defending" their opposite position or attacking the original poster. <BR>In the long run, nastiness is a hazard that may discourage people from contributing and thus losing the variety of perspectives that makes this site so great.

Elaine: I'm not sure as to why, but about a year or two ago there was a thread called "The Tacky Tourist". It elicited some contrasting responses to say the least. <BR> <BR>There were plenty of slanders in that one! Fairly heated if I remember correctly, as well, but not really sure how it got that way though.

I don't think this is strictly a European travel issue. It seems to me that many people have one style of dressing -- casual-- and don't like to be told that it may not be appropriate all of the time. Personally, I prefer to not feel out of place no matter where I am. Of course, you CAN wear sneakers and jeans to the theater in NYC, but most people will be more dressed up. When we go to a nice restaurant for dinner, my husband wears a coat and tie, he would feel very out of place in jeans in that environment. But I have noticed that many people don't seem to care about whether they are underdressed compared to those around them. For example, people showed up at my wedding in jeans and t-shirts, which I would not have expected. So when I see questions of the type you are asking about on the forum, I usually don't answer them. It seems to me that someone who says that their husband won't wear a sports coat and can they eat in Europe without it, probably does that here, and won't care that most other people in the restaurant are dressed differently. As far as myself, I make a distinction between style and appropriateness. I see no reason to wear all black just because they do, I certainly don't think it's inappropriate if they wear black here, and although in Italy the women wore beautiful heels, it doesn't make sense for a tourist to walk around like that all day. But nothing that would make me feel out of place, so no shorts or sneakers, and we change before going out in the evening.

To a degree, I agree with you, Cheryl. I don't think this is just a matter of travel dressing. <BR>What I think is at the bottom of "degenerating into nastiness or personal attack" is good old human nature....and specifically intolerance of how others think and behave when they don't think/behave like oneself. <BR>I for one am intolerant of intolerance. <BR>Let people discuss their opinions and go back and forth, but don't cast stones, get snide, or throw metaphorical stones...whatever the subject, be it dress style, how to name a posting, or what-have-you.

Wow, all that typing, and I still wasn't as clear as I meant to be. Definitely a bad day here, sorry. I should have been more clear that, yes, I think you hit it on the head Elaine when you said that dress and fashion were so personal. I think it's safest to avoid issues of style, and just let people know what they can expect others to be wearing, then they can decide everything else on their own.

Cheryl, I hope you don't think I meant my last sentence about you. Not at all. I was just speaking generally. Ahh, the difficulties of email communication.

KK- <BR> <BR>Not at all. It's just that I realized that I hadn't actually answered Elaine's question, even though I thought I was...

It's not just how to dress; check out some of the older topics about things like smoking or taking babies to Europe. <BR>I've noticed that people who do the things that people complain about, like smoking, tend to lash out at others because they are unable to intelligently defend their own actions. Or, if someone expresses dismay about infants in museums or so forth, the people who bring infants everywhere call the others child-haters and make nasty remarks about their upbringing. <BR> <BR>There's a difference between disliking behavior and disliking people, but when hot topics are discussed, those who don't know how to discuss and debate resort to name-calling and personal insults. Same with the style of dress.

Dear Just(an observer), man oh man, I'd forgotten some of those really vicious sets of postings....and now that you mention it I definitely recall the name-calling regarding whether or not to take your children along. That may just take the prize for the meanest I remember of my 2-3 years spent fodoring here. Another baddy was more recent, complaining about fat people taking up too much airplane space. <BR>Pitiful, all those. They make the current argument over appropriate dressing pale in comparison.

Well, let's face it. For many people, it is difficult to express themselves in writing. So we are left with folks who feel passionately about a controversial subject but have trouble articulating the reasons for their feelings or who just don't want to take the time. So they lash out with snide remarks or name-calling or worse. <BR> <BR>At times, the ugly posts leave me shaking my head. I'm not talking about the failed attempts at humor -- I usually appreciate the attempt. But as for the name-callers and mean-spirited hecklers, I would like to think that these folks are relentlessly nice in their everyday interactions, but I'm not so sure. Could all of this rancor out there explain things like road rage, air rage, workplace rage, supermarket rage, movie theatre rage and subway rage? <BR> <BR>Also puzzling is the general unwillingness on this board to admit error and apologize when one is obviously in the wrong. Time and time again, I see someone lash out or commit some other sin, get called on it, and then refuse to back down at all. Would it kill us all to admit to being wrong or out of line if we are?

Cindy, I must disagree with your idea that some people just don't know how to express themselves in writing here. Good thought, but here's why I think it's really just the opposite. <BR> <BR>I think most of those nasty posts are what people really think and feel and they are expressing it in writing just fine - it's verbal expression in a real time situation that frustrates them. Coming here and posting their true thoughts about it is pretty honest. You can say whatever you are really thinking without worrying about any social faux pas, as it's completely anonymous. <BR> <BR>IMO, of course!!!

As a New Yorker I must say that anything goes at a Broadway show. Sneakers and jeans are fine especially at a matinee but in the evening jeans or khakis and regular shoes might be more appropriate but noone really cares anyway.

Just, <BR> <BR>Thank you so, so much for disagreeing with me in such a mature and thought-provoking way. It is downright refreshing. <BR> <BR>I question whether people are simply taking advantage of the opportunity to be nastier than they could be in their regular lives because they are anonymous. Speaking for myself only, I work pretty darn hard not to be nasty because I know that it kind of stings when someone says something mean. Even if they are obviously wrong. Even if others take up for you and defend you. Even though no one knows who I am and even my own mom wouldn't recognize my posts. Even if they put a little smiley face after their evil remark. I know there are many regular contributors to this forum who also try not to hurt others' feelings. So how come some people don't have a more empathy and try even a little bit to cushion the blow of whatever it is they have to say? Is it because they really don't know how? Or am I being way, way too sensitive and taking the sniping too personally?

I don't think you're being too sensitive, Cindy. People have different opinions which is just fine but I never understand why some get so hostile about them. Chalk it up to immaturity. I'll bet the snipers act the same way in cars too.

I have no problem with differing opinions. I think it can add value to a discussion topic when people disagree, and especially explain the view for doing so. For example, some folks think jeans & T-shirts or short and T-shirts are perfectly acceptable attire whereas I prefer to not follow that look when traveling in Europe - I loved my visit to Versaille when I was in Paris last year and others think it a waste of time. I think a spectrum of opinions are helpful when evaluating where to go / stay / dress / see, etc. <BR> <BR>However the level of hostility and boorishness when folks post opposing views sometimes does get out of control. Tone down the vitriol - disagreements are fine, and can be expressed without the nastiness. <BR> <BR>Think that the analogy to road rage and our 'anonimity' definitely allow for this to occur.

I think this outspokeness is a characteristic of all 'remote' communication. When people write letters and use the phone they generally make an effort to dampen their emotion. This restraint needs to be practised with e-communications. Far too often folk on the end of a modem visualise themselves behind a brick wall too thick to put a fist through and too high to lob anything heavy over, so they feel they can say whatever they like. When I post something here, and other bulletin boards, I try and visualise the person sitting across the table from me and try to express myself as I would 'in real life', if anything less intensly as I don't know how sensitive the other party is. <BR> <BR>Fodor's is actually quite good, the posts that turn into running battles are quite a small proportion of all posts and mostly the stands taken are on some doctrinal basis. I've seen other boards and newsgroups where posters get carping critisism about their spelling and grammar, you probably wouldn't do this in real life and in this context the content is more important than the form. <BR> <BR>Getting back to Elaine's original post I think seasoned tyravellers think 'what do I wear' is a dumb question, the dumb questions are the ones that are not asked. When replies are posted people other than the original poster get annoyed because they don't like being told what to wear, you can't win. For inexperienced travellers, who arguably this forum is for, who ask the dumb questions I say congratulations for realising in advance that this may be a problem but please do a search before posting as plenty has already been said about dress codes and other cultural issues. <BR> <BR>My top tip for men in shorts - put a pair of plain tracksuit bottoms (the tailored nylon kind not the fleecy warm up kind) into your backpack for putting on over your shorts, gets you in almost anywhere. The equivalent for women in shorts or short skirts (for whom sometimes slacks are equally inappropriate) is some kind of sarongy thing (not well versed in womens fashions) that you can slip round your waist to cover your knees.

Bottom line - I think the reason people post mean, nasty, smart alec responses is because they know they can "get away with it" because they're anonymous. I would bet 99.99% of those same people wouldn't have the balls to say those same comments face to face with another person. I'm a frequent reader of the boards in general and a sometimes poster in the U.S. forum and overall, it's much worse over there!

What one person may regard as mean and nasty may be just anothers way of expressing their opinion robustly. <BR> I'd rather put up with a few coluorful comments than have everyone walking on eggshells lest they offend, <BR>the balance on Fodors is about right. <BR> If you want to see real mean & nasty <BR> try the Lonely Planet site!