further comments:

Absolutely no evidence of 'idolizing or self-loathing.'

'Fretting about what is the proper shoe to wear in Paris only shows that you really have no clue and are insecure.'
One person's concern or CURIOSITY is another person's neurosis. Neurosis can also be evidenced by the consistent misunderstanding of other people, or to consider their quirks strange and inferior while one's own quirks are perfect and normal.

Here's a quirk:
"Now, if anybody needs lessons in behavior while traveling, seems to me it's the Germans. I was appalled by the rudeness of the Germans I ran onto on my recent trip to Iceland."

Appalled by rudeness? Me too, right here. Now, if anyone needs lessons in behavior...

My main point in my semi-rant is how many topics and posts on these boards have to do with Americans wishing to 'fit in' - i.e. not be identified as Americans. What they wish to be identified as, I have no idea. All us Europhiles need to realize that there are just as many ugly characteristics of European cultures as American ones, probably more.

I have a different take on fitting in. I don't think it refers to not being identified as an American, at least that isn't what it means to me. When I first traveled to Europe, decades ago, people dressed much more conservatively there than they did in the US. When I traveled to Israel on a teen tour in the 1960's, our group advisors told us not to wear Bermuda shorts because we would attract unwanted attention. I believe much has changed in the invervening decades, however.

I just would like to know what is acceptable, what would draw stares, what other people are likely to be wearing. It has never, ever occurred to me that it wouldn't be obvious I was American, and it has never occurred to me to try to hide the fact that I am.

Nikki: "My first reaction was to wonder why anyone would criticize a traveler for wanting a souvenir of a different culture. But then I wondered whether that is a trait more specific to the American culture than the European one."

Have you really looked at European museums? Most of them contain vast collections of "souvenirs" taken by European travelerss to other parts of the world--and often without the locals' consent.

Also, as an American who's been living in Europe for years, I think too many American visitors here have a MUCH too rosy view of locals. Not all local behaviour is admirable. For example, I could really blend in with the locals at the pub a few blocks from us by getting drunk by 6 pm, chain smoking, dressing like a tart, and swearing loudly.

As a rule, I find most American visitors well-behaved, keenly interested in and respectful to other cultures. There's a reason Americans usually rank at or near the top of international surveys about most welcomed tourists and it's NOT because they're all throwing money around.

When Europeans visit America, they do not obsess endlessly about blending in. They don't agonize over which shoes to take, which clothes to wear, etc. etc. They are comfortable with who they are and aren't ashamed for their nationality to be recognized. And it's not because their dress, manners, etc. are so superior. Anyone who's watched a sunburnt, overweight, middle-aged German male strutting along a Florida beach in his micro Speedo is disabused of that notion pretty quickly!

Go Nikki!

BTilke, my last comment was not in any way aimed at your posting, yours had not appeared when I was responding to Nikki.

Anthropologists have long pondered this question. At this time in history and in that field, the practice of cultural relativism has IMHO almost obliterated true social science study of any particular culture.

Do you record by count any reality of a society as it actually occurs- or are you not able to see the reality because you are looking at the practice through your own lens? Value judgments always do come into play.

Travel has some parallels. Americans are extremely hard on themselves in the manners described by Imhornet, GalavantingReprobate, and BTilke.

The display of material wealth from other cultures, example used, is an easier issue than most. What about views or participation while in travel or during anthropologic recording that has different moral implications for both you and your own culture than it does for the culture of present experience. Can you see slavery, female genital mutilation, religious or class separation restrictions etc. etc. with the same lens as within the practicing culture? In Europe a better example would be some animal treatment I have witnessed or lack of safety regulation. How do I act "polite"? Within my own framework- or in the framework of the present visited culture.

Margarent Mead just dressed like herself in her own manner and style, be it in Paris, New Guinea or USA. My take is respect for the host culture but remaining and knowing myself enough that I remain myself to myself throughout. Polite behavior is respect for the manner of the minute, but does not need to include obsessive copy behavior in appearance or in other possible cultural conflicting actions.

Other culture's visitors to the USA do not reflect that kind of copy behavior when coming to the USA, as much as we seem to do while outside the USA, IMHO.

I don't worry too much about "what to wear" in Europe, but my first trips there were so long ago that it was a non-issue. Everyone my age wore jeans, period, no matter what their nationality.

However, I am sympathetic to the first time traveler asking dress questions. It's not so much insecurity (unless the person is really obsessing) or the desire to not look like an American, but rather the desire to not stick out like a sore thumb.

The first time I went to Japan, with my California wardrobe full of bright colors, I felt uncomfortably conspicuous. There was certainly no question of looking like a local, as I am not Asian. The next trip I took more subdued colors and I have offered this advice on the Asia board when the question came up.

You who scoff at these questions would, I daresay, feel uncomfortable at a formal dress party in casual wear, or vice versa. Some people just have a more keenly developed sense of the details.

I have no idea who has seen or discussed
'obsessive copy behavior', whatever that is, but I haven't seen or read about it here. People write into the fodors US forum about suggestions on what to wear when visiting New York, that's not excessive copy behavior and I don't think their goal is to look like someone who lives in NYC. I believe the goal,whether one is inquiring about clothes, or tipping, or
ordering in restaurants, or touching merchandise in small shops, is to try to be respectful and not offend. That is not self-loathing, it isn't obsessive copying, it isn't a form of disguise, and it isn't neurotic. Some of us have done more traveling than others, some of us feel a bit more confident in some unfamiliar settings than others. Whether Europeans or Americans engage in self-examination, or the desire not to offend, more or less than the other group, is not important. Am I supposed to 'copy' Europeans as to whether or not they care about how they behave or dress while traveling? Now THAT would be obsessive copying.

as usual, btilke provides a thoughtful and measured response. i agree with her completely.

i do not think hornet's views reflect my own. i do not think money spent has anything to do with a right to act in a certain way...and i think that walking around with the attitude that "i'm paying" puts yourself on a superior footing that can cause problems.

i also do not question those who simply ask advice on what to wear. however, as others, i have noticed that this question often has a lot to do with how not to look american...others may disagree but i think it is fair to say that this theme is not uncommon both in the questions and the way it is answered.

anyway, my original post had more to do with the militant europhile responses to those queries that i mentioned.

i don't know the cause of all of this but perhaps the culture war in the US has something to do with it. anyone who has anything negative to say about the french is met with vile...perhaps an assumption that they are a freedom fry eating ignorant. the radar for this is far too sensitive. an italian making similar comments would not be attacked...it would be seen as charming little rivalries. this is just one example of many.

One of my original points was that such militant american europhilism...lecturing others on how they need to act, etc, belies a lack of understanding of europe and the world. people like btilke have been around enough to see things in a more mature and measured way...without having to throw around rosy fantasy views of europe (europeans thin and healthy, americans fat and unhealthy, europeans quiet and reserved, americans loud and obnoxious, etc, etc).

i can see why some americans want to use europe as a fantasyland that helps them to escape from all they see wrong in their own country and people. however, this fantasy view is total fiction, their views are trite and do not at all help those who really wish to properly understand a culture.

Well said, walkinaround. There are numerous militant europhile responses on these boards. That is the most accurate description of this practice I have come across.

Europeans tend to spend more money if they have more money, and less money if they have less money.

I really find the response to post amusing. They criticize my attitude but, oddly enough, don't specify what they don't like. Are they upset that I prefer to act like myself and that I don't deel the need to treat people any differently because they are European rather than American. Are they upset that I don't need the affirmation of strangers? Are they upset that I expect reasonable service when I pay for something. Are they upset that I expect the same level of service in Europe that I get at home?

What gets me most about the people who worry is their self-centeredness. Their indignation reflects an astonmishing level of arrogance and self importantance. They seem to think that they are so important that every European will be horrified and offended if they don't act just right, dress just right etc. I hate to break it to you folks, but you aren't that important. The Europeans got more important things to think about than you.

Clifton, you asked: Which culture prevails when one is a stranger in a strange land - one's own, or those of the people one is visiting?

First off, the idea of modesty being a virtue is quite universal; not to draw attention to oneself is generally looked upon favourably.

However, that said, I'm having trouble with the idea that a) cultures are static - one either chooses one or the other, and b) as insinuated by other posters, that it is somehow wrong to introduce competing ideas into a culture, that this constitutes 'imposing' oneself on the culture, showing disrespect. Wait a minute, why is this wrong? Consider what the various cuisines of Europe would be without potatoes, tomatoes (especially in Italy), paprika, etc. etc. Yet all of these arrived in Europe from the Americas. Consequently, if I order pasta with tomato sauce in Italy, am I doing something "wrong" or "right"? If the answer depends on my knowing which culture 'owns' tomato sauce, I see a problem...

Or consider abstract ideas, like those of mathematics. The Maya came up with the concept of zero, namely because they early on had a need for that idea. As other cultures acquired a need for the idea of 'zero' they either came up with it themselves or borrowed it from some other culture. Now, given as it's awfully hard to do business on either side of the Atlantic without using 'zero' pray tell me folks, whose culture am I mirroring when I use it?

Imhornet, you have described perfectly the heavy focus upon their own behavior and clothing that seems hard for me to understand on these European board threads. I also do not think the hosts really care or have that much concern to notice such differences in Europe.

Sue xx yy, what you say is true. The larger concepts are all shared by nearly every culture- like love for family members etc. But how we express our knowledge and those base cultural values is actually very different. For instance a good argument could be made that the idea of modesty being a universal virtue is not the case. Some cultures even see eye contact and body language messages which advertise "modesty" in their culture as entirely opposite from another culture's. Some would chide boys, for example, if they were modest and did not brag about their physical feats or skills.

And also some cultures have belief systems that are fixed upon highly traditional ancestral example. They can take a "good" input from another culture only over the passage of time.

I also do not think it "wrong" to introduce competing ideas into a culture. Nevertheless, you probably WILL insult some good cooks if you insist on carrying catsup to use with your meal while traveling.

And on some large issues like treatment of children, women, animals etc.- there is a point at which I remain fixed and would not let another cultural ideal prevail. Things like murder, slavery, female genital mutilation etc.- I consider them evils in any culture. In recent years these are being studied/ considered "relative" to the culture. I can't think that way. To me there are some things that are wrong regardless of cultural tilt. In response to these I could never mirror the response of the host culture.